Author Topic: steam boiler  (Read 12683 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

greenkarson

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 166
steam boiler
« on: May 02, 2010, 05:27:36 PM »
No body will proudly want to touch this subject with a ten foot pole but here goes.  My boiler consist of a 25 gallon heavy duty air compresser tank siting on a fire box so only the bottom quarter is in the firebox. I know this is inefficient but lets me monitor the tank easier.  the tank is rated for 150psi and 660 degrees Ive had it up to 140psi with air several time to test it.  It has 3 safely valves set at 100 psi and a "holy crap" manual blow out valve plumbed so i can blow the steam out and away.  Ive tested this  with air and steam. Just before the tank hits 100psi I've been putting out the fire as well.
I'm wondering if anybody else has had any REAL HANDS ON EXPEARANCE with this kind of boiler and if there is a significant danger in the heating and reheating of the boiler?  it is never boiled anywhere near dry?


thanks everybody. looking for "experienced" opinions only on this one thanks again

harley1782000

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
  • I thought so too.....
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2010, 06:25:18 PM »
My buddy has a setup like that and he has been useing it for about 4 years now.  He only gets it too 75psi.  He does, once a week take a big plug out and checks in side and around it for any problems.  He also keeps it in a room by itself.  Now he runs a turbine, not a engine.  Don't think there is a difference since they both use steam.  He did say he was going to make a new boiler out of Boiler Steam.  Good thick stuff.  After awhile the minerals and crap in the water will eat the tank and the fire will start to work at it too.

greend88

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2010, 06:29:10 PM »
For a potbelly boiler I would install Blow out plugs on the bottom that have a set temperature then they melt and vent.  But if the water is properly maintained they'll be fine.  Never let it run low and I would keep it as full as possible If possible install a sight glass so you can monitor the water level.  Pictures would be great. What kind of safety valves do you have on it? I would only use ones designed for steam.  Here's the reason why. When you heat the water up and build pressure the boiling point goes up, then if you vent it and the pressure drops suddenly the boiling point drops even more and then you have a bunch of water flash to steam and if your vents can't handle the volume of steam generated say Kabooom.

Old F

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 309
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2010, 06:57:41 PM »
You mite want to do a search on steam traction engines.

There are forum out there  for  the repairing/ restoring, care and feeding for old iron here's one to start

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

They should have the kind of info your needing
Having so much fun it should be illegal

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2010, 10:13:43 PM »
Quote
I'm wondering if anybody else has had any REAL HANDS ON EXPEARANCE with this kind of boiler and if there is a significant danger in the heating and reheating of the boiler? it is never boiled anywhere near dry?

thanks everybody. looking for "experienced" opinions only on this one thanks again
greenkarson

I would not fire a pressure vessel, thats intended to only hold compressed air, you could run into things like "caustic embrittlemnt", Besides the "blow down hazard" do you have any idea what a steam trap is?

*You should look towards this group-

http://www.steamautomobile.com/lcc/index.htm

a link to there discussion forum

http://steamautomobile.com/phorum5214/read.php?1,14362,14376#msg-14376

Dan's boiler and engine has been looked over by Licensed Boiler Operators. There the ones who educated him as to proper operation of the system.

JW

-edit- spelling correction
« Last Edit: May 02, 2010, 10:52:07 PM by JW »

don1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2010, 05:50:44 PM »
I agree with JW.
  Boilers are very dangerous things. They have killed a lot of people over the years. There is nothing more dangerous than someone messing with steam and not knowing what he is dealing with.   Air tanks are made of as thin as 14 gage sheet. and were never intended to be heated.  Steam  boilers on the other hand are made of heavy  Boiler plate.  Please for your own safety do not fire a boiler that is not certified.  I believe in the US it is against the law to fire a steam boiler that has not been tested and certified.  Even toy ones.
  If you Google steam boilers you will find boilers for sale that are certified. 
 Good luck with your project Greenkarson.

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1763
  • Country: 00
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2010, 12:46:08 PM »
replace that dangerous home made boiler with a tubular boiler and run propane through it as the heat fluid, the energy recovered will be at least 3 times what you can get with water at low pressure and temp. there are plenty of ways to do this safely. one of which is to use lead as a heat exchanger for the super heat side of the boiler, standard steel water pipe will suffice for the low temperature side.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

don1

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 12:46:37 AM »
Joestue,
  I don't know if I'm missing something here so sorry if I am.  But Lead melts at about 621.43 degrees F  The super heated steam can even light a match. It does not provide much cooling effect inside the lead exchanger and the hot gases that fire the boiler can reach a temperature of 1300 degrees  on the outside It would seem to me that the lead will melt.
 If one was to cut the temp so as not destroy the exchanger you wouldn't get much power out of it. Please correct me here as I would like to understand you post.  Thanks don.

joestue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1763
  • Country: 00
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 01:35:17 AM »
sorry i wasn't clear.
Use a low melting point metal loop to transfer the heat from the fire to the steam. This enables you to use cheap steel for the firebox and heating tubes, and you won't have to worry about corrosion, because a failure will only release lead/tin/antimony/whatever at very low pressure into the firebox. the boiler tubes still have to withstand the pressure, but there is no external corrosion, so you are free to use whatever pipe you want. just make sure you do a burst test on a few samples at the intended operating temperatures and derate as desired.

I'd run sodium heat pipes myself but that's just me, they certainly seem to be the only option for concentrated solar rankine cycle engines, unless you are ok with steam  and 3% of carnot.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

bob g

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
  • 8.8kwatt idi diesel thermal conversion unit
    • microcogen.info
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 06:58:09 AM »
let me try to relate this as best i can

if you have a pressure vessel that is producing perhaps enough steam at 75 psi to power a half hp motor,
which may not be much steam, and something goes wrong, and you either vent off the tank
or it ruptures...

the remaining water in that tank will now be under zero pressure and will immediately flash to steam,,, all of it!

this is what causes a massive explosion!

there is also something called disassociation, where the steam comes into contact with a very hot fire or coals
which under the right circumstances can rob the oxygen from the steam molecule, leaving the hydrogen behind.

we all know what happens when hydrogen comes into contact with an ignition source.

please don't continue your project with an air tank used as a boiler tank, i don't even want to think about either you
or one of your friends or kids getting seriously injured or killed.

at least i want no part of that.

bob g
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

bob g

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1107
  • 8.8kwatt idi diesel thermal conversion unit
    • microcogen.info
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 07:18:00 AM »
i just remembered another part of the disassociation thing

when the steam is vented into the firebox, it displaces the needed oxygen to sustain combustion
it is under these conditions that disassociation can take place, the fire starved of oxygen will rob
the oxygen from the steam molecule leaving behind the hydrogen which is a secondary fuel source
that leads to another possible explosion hazard.

water that is fed into a boiler should be treated to keep down scale, and to slow down the hydrogen embrittlement
previously mentioned by another member.

this is just so wrong on so many levels.

please do a bunch more study, reading and ask a certified boiler guy for recommendations.

remember a gallon of water when flashed to steam becomes something like 2600 gallons of steam
if you have 10 gallons of water in your tank and it rupture it will become 26000gallons of steam, and it only
gets worse from there.

there is an old saying that relates to this phenomena

" there is a stick of dynamite in a gallon of water"

how many sticks of dynamite are you playing with?

bob g
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

wpowokal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1271
  • Country: au
  • Far North Queensland (FNQ) Australia
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2010, 07:35:49 AM »
As someone licensed to operate steam boilers of all sizes I can only echo the caution of others see here...http://www.safteng.net/Accident%20Photos/Hot%20Water%20heater%20explosion.htm
allan
A gentleman is man who can disagree without being disagreeable.

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 11:20:13 PM »
I think if one is operating a "CLASS 1" type of boiler as mentioned above, the remarks are mostly correct.

However there is another "class" of boiler commonly refered to the "Monotube Boiler" in some cases, its refered to as a flash steam boiler and its much safer to operate. This is basically a coil of tubing that is directly in contact with a burner of some sort, examples would be a waste oil burner/liquid fuel burner or solidfuel burner.

In the picture below we see DanB in the foreground, observing his "Steam Generator-set" burning wood chunks. This is a Class 1 type of boiler, you can see the licenced boiler operator in the background, he's demonstrating "proper operation" to DanB.



We used to have a "Mechanical section" on the old board, and have "Other" on the new board here. (which we could rename, to mechanical, by the way) This picture was in my hard drive from a while back and I Just happened to have it, so I posted it. The original thread this photo comes from appears to be lost, at this time.

We've covered lots of ground here on fieldlines, here's a picture of one of my projects.



I TIG welded and machined the aluminum myself. The box houses two 12volt Iota Ballast's at 40watts apiece running two 5ft T8 fluorescent bulbs(on 12 volt DC). The housing was designed to be waterproof and remove heat from the ballasts, which it did well on both functions. Its a story I wrote in my diary long time ago.

Here's something interesting to checkout a Gauss Meter-



In any event, I wanted to get to my main point. There are some who have considered the possiblity of using cheap unrefined fuels, one way to do that is external combustion. So now a new class of steam engines are in development. So called flash steam engines, and the Rankine engine cycle, each are both relative to Carnot efficiency, but operate thru different means. For example, your not going to see a "4cycle Rankine steam engine" However with both types of engines the use of dynamic adjustments such as Cut-Off and Angular setting, for steam admission, using such techniques an expander (steam engine) can exceed the 3% eff number quite easily, but a Donkey Pump engine that has steam admission continuously on its power-stoke with no provisions for expansion of steam in the cyclinder, of coarse 3% would be accurate. But almost all modern steam engines built have such provisions.

The monotube boiler is not simular to a "storage boiler" and eliminates a storage drum of anysort, and the ballistics are completly different. Since the monotube has very limited storage capacity in its basic form, its also much harder to regulate its output. Powering a gen-set you can get away with it easily, since for the most part, the engine runs the same rpm over time.

True Flash Steam engines may be 4cycle and dont need live steam generated from a monotube, so there even safer, but the engines tend to be very experimental at this time. I work with such type of engines.

1006-3



These type of systems are built by people who have attempted to do this for years, the primary concern is Safety, these newer steam engines are more safety redundant nearly to the point of "explosion proof". But there is one hell of a learning curve, if you havent been directly working on experimental steam engines for like ten years, there's alot of getcha's with a gotcha. Just starting from scratch is very risky, its best to work with someone who has the needed experience.


On another note, I just recently passed my ASE Master Tech Certification (they expire every 5 years) my experience spans 17 years, as a automobile master tech. At somepoint coming up here, Im going to take the Boiler Operators Exam, been studying for it for years.

JW
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 09:11:39 AM by JW »

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: steam boiler
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2022, 08:02:20 PM »
This is from before I understood "superheat quantity" I was educated about this by Jim Crank on the SACA site years ago.