Author Topic: hot water panel paint  (Read 5770 times)

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damian

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hot water panel paint
« on: July 01, 2010, 02:32:50 PM »
I'm refurbishing some solar hot water panels, which just means taking the glass covers off and cleaning both sides and possibly repainting the black absorber surface.  I'm inclined to simply spray some flat black stove paint on the absorbers but wonder if this is ill advised.  Does the paint that is original do a better job, even if it looks a bit dinged up and glossy?  Anybody checked into this already?
Thanks,

Damian

phil b

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 06:36:12 PM »
The stove paint will work. I used a light coat on my new ones. Pay attention to the temperature the manufacturer states the paint can tolerate. They do vary significantly.
Phil

GaryGary

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2010, 11:08:55 AM »
Hi,
I use the Rust-Oleum flat black BBQ paint in the spray cans.  It works well, and holds up to the heat.

If you have bare metal fins to paint, I'd have a look at spray can of Thurmalox, as its somewhat selective and would improve the efficiency a bit over plain black paint, but it sounds like the fins area already painted.
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Suppliers/SolarHeating.htm#Selective

If the finish on the absorber fins now is a selective finish, then I'd not mess with it unless you see some areas that really need protection.

Gary

Simen

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2010, 05:44:00 PM »
There was a local university here that did a study on which color was best for absorbing heat, and i think they ended up with a deep indigo color... :)
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

damian

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2010, 10:09:23 PM »
Thanks for the replies.  Checked out your site Gary, cool beans.  I had already procured some regular old flat black stove paint so I just used it sparingly on any areas that looked degraded.

Thanks Again,

Damian

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2010, 10:27:15 PM »
There was a local university here that did a study on which color was best for absorbing heat, and i think they ended up with a deep indigo color... :)

That was probably gaining by better absorption somewhere outside the visible than in was losing in the visible.

This sort of thing would depend on what actual pigments they were using, so getting a random deep indigo paint wouldn't be expected to replicate their results.  You need to get THAT paint formulation.

I'd stick with the stove paint.  We're dealing with variations in the one percent range anyhow.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2010, 10:32:58 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Simen

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2010, 03:18:32 AM »
I think it makes sense to use a color closer to the infrared we're interested in capturing... If you think of a rainbow color-scheme; the infrared lies just beyond that indigo color at the one end of that scheme... :)

Black is just close, and cheap/easy; not the optimal color... ;)

Edit:
Talking about one percent variations; i'd guess that a random dark indigo color would get you that 1% closer to optimal, compared to black. :) Could be fun to experiment...
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 03:23:00 AM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

southpaw

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2010, 09:22:01 AM »
I think it makes sense to use a color closer to the infrared we're interested in capturing... If you think of a rainbow color-scheme; the infrared lies just beyond that indigo color at the one end of that scheme... :)

Black is just close, and cheap/easy; not the optimal color... ;)

Edit:
Talking about one percent variations; i'd guess that a random dark indigo color would get you that 1% closer to optimal, compared to black. :) Could be fun to experiment...
Infrared is at the red end of the spectrum, hence the name.
Ultraviolet is at the indigo end, and Im sure that if there was a better color than black for absorbing heat the panel manufacturers would be using it.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2010, 04:31:15 PM »
I think it makes sense to use a color closer to the infrared we're interested in capturing... If you think of a rainbow color-scheme; the infrared lies just beyond that indigo color at the one end of that scheme... :)

Black is just close, and cheap/easy; not the optimal color... ;)

Edit:
Talking about one percent variations; i'd guess that a random dark indigo color would get you that 1% closer to optimal, compared to black. :) Could be fun to experiment...
Infrared is at the red end of the spectrum, hence the name.
Ultraviolet is at the indigo end, and Im sure that if there was a better color than black for absorbing heat the panel manufacturers would be using it.

Also:  Since you're consuming it as heat, absorbing light at ANY frequency is a net gain.  So you want to grab it all.  The name of that color (and texture) is "flat black".

Surface coloring controls frequency selective COUPLING between light and surface temperature.  At a frequency where the surface absorbs well it will radiate well when it gets hot enough to radiate significantly at that frequency.  If it reflects, it also won't radiate as easily.  You want to grab and hold as much energy as possible.  So selective coloring would only be useful for inhibiting re-emission (which would be mostly in the far infrared).

But you don't need to do that:  The glass cover does it for you by reflecting re-emitted infrared back to be re-absorbed (and also keeps the hot air in so you don't lose much by conduction, either).  So you can paint it black and also catch what far infrared does make it through the glass.

That's what the greenhouse effect is:  Transparency for most frequencies by the glass/atmosphere, downconversion to far infrared of absorbed and re-emitted radiation at the surface, and reflection (or backscattering) of the far infrared by the glass/atmosphere, keeping most of the re-emitted radiation around to be re-absorbed.  You gain far more by holding the downcoverted energy captured from higher frequencies than you lose from bouncing some incoming far infrared.

GaryGary

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2010, 09:11:01 PM »
I think it makes sense to use a color closer to the infrared we're interested in capturing... If you think of a rainbow color-scheme; the infrared lies just beyond that indigo color at the one end of that scheme... :)

Black is just close, and cheap/easy; not the optimal color... ;)

Edit:
Talking about one percent variations; i'd guess that a random dark indigo color would get you that 1% closer to optimal, compared to black. :) Could be fun to experiment...
Infrared is at the red end of the spectrum, hence the name.
Ultraviolet is at the indigo end, and Im sure that if there was a better color than black for absorbing heat the panel manufacturers would be using it.

Also:  Since you're consuming it as heat, absorbing light at ANY frequency is a net gain.  So you want to grab it all.  The name of that color (and texture) is "flat black".

Surface coloring controls frequency selective COUPLING between light and surface temperature.  At a frequency where the surface absorbs well it will radiate well when it gets hot enough to radiate significantly at that frequency.  If it reflects, it also won't radiate as easily.  You want to grab and hold as much energy as possible.  So selective coloring would only be useful for inhibiting re-emission (which would be mostly in the far infrared).

But you don't need to do that:  The glass cover does it for you by reflecting re-emitted infrared back to be re-absorbed (and also keeps the hot air in so you don't lose much by conduction, either).  So you can paint it black and also catch what far infrared does make it through the glass.

That's what the greenhouse effect is:  Transparency for most frequencies by the glass/atmosphere, downconversion to far infrared of absorbed and re-emitted radiation at the surface, and reflection (or backscattering) of the far infrared by the glass/atmosphere, keeping most of the re-emitted radiation around to be re-absorbed.  You gain far more by holding the downcoverted energy captured from higher frequencies than you lose from bouncing some incoming far infrared.

Selective coatings that have low emissivity in the long IR are used on some commercial collectors.  They do show a significant performance gain over black painted absorbers.  For example, you can see this in the SRCC results for the Heliodyne Gobi flat plate collector by comparing the black painted absorber version with the black chrome selective finish version:

Blat painted: http://securedb.fsec.ucf.edu/srcc/coll_detail?srcc_id=1981085D
Selective black chrome: http://securedb.fsec.ucf.edu/srcc/coll_detail?srcc_id=2007026D
I believe that these panels are the same except for the selective coating on one and black paint on the other.
This link lists all the SRCC tested panels -- I think that Radco also offers black paint and selective coating in an otherwise identical collector.

On the efficiency curves, the intercept values are nearly equal, but the slope on the selective one is -0.837 BTU/hr-Ft^2-F vs -1.07 for the black painted absorber. 
If you look at the sunny day heat captured for the category D operation, the selective one delivers 24.3K BTU/day, and the black painted one delivers 20.9 K BTU/day -- so the selective one collects about 5% more heat than the black paint one.

I think your logic is basically OK, but I think that when the absorber radiates heavily in the long IR (as the black paint one will), the glass does block a lot of that radiation, but it absorbs it and gets warmer and loses more heat because of that.
Whatever the reason, selective coatings do show an advantage in every test that I have seen.

If you are building your own panel, the flat black paint does fine, but if you want to get part of the way to what a selective coating will do, the Thermalox partly selective paint that is available in spray cans and has an long IR emissivity of about 0.5 when applied at the right thickness to well cleaned bare aluminum might be a good choice.  The fact that good DIY collectors can be built for about $5 a sqft where commercial collectors are more like $30 a sqft plus expensive shipping still favors the DIY collectors on a BTU per buck basis by a very wide margin.

Gary









MattM

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2010, 09:41:32 AM »
I can personally speak about copper versus aluminum in direct sunlight.  You don't just pick up unpainted copper that has been laying in direct sunlight whereas matte black aluminum is hot to the touch but doesn't have the same painful potential.  Most of your aluminum materials in construction are significantly doped whereas the sheet copper materials are 97% pure or better.  Just a thought.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2010, 11:30:38 AM »
Selective coatings that have low emissivity in the long IR are used on some commercial collectors.  They do show a significant performance gain over black painted absorbers.  For example, you can see this in the SRCC results for the Heliodyne Gobi flat plate collector by comparing the black painted absorber version with the black chrome selective finish version:

Blat painted: http://securedb.fsec.ucf.edu/srcc/coll_detail?srcc_id=1981085D
Selective black chrome: http://securedb.fsec.ucf.edu/srcc/coll_detail?srcc_id=2007026D
I believe that these panels are the same except for the selective coating on one and black paint on the other.
This link lists all the SRCC tested panels -- I think that Radco also offers black paint and selective coating in an otherwise identical collector.

On the efficiency curves, the intercept values are nearly equal, but the slope on the selective one is -0.837 BTU/hr-Ft^2-F vs -1.07 for the black painted absorber.  
If you look at the sunny day heat captured for the category D operation, the selective one delivers 24.3K BTU/day, and the black painted one delivers 20.9 K BTU/day -- so the selective one collects about 5% more heat than the black paint one.

Actually, that's over a 16% improvement in performance in category D (testing intended to model water heating in a cold climate).

Yet in category C (water heating in a warm climate) they're virtually identical (with the black one slightly ahead of the selective coating).

Quote
I think your logic is basically OK, but I think that when the absorber radiates heavily in the long IR (as the black paint one will), the glass does block a lot of that radiation, but it absorbs it and gets warmer and loses more heat because of that.
Whatever the reason, selective coatings do show an advantage in every test that I have seen.

If you are building your own panel, the flat black paint does fine, but if you want to get part of the way to what a selective coating will do, the Thermalox partly selective paint that is available in spray cans and has an long IR emissivity of about 0.5 when applied at the right thickness to well cleaned bare aluminum might be a good choice.  The fact that good DIY collectors can be built for about $5 a sqft where commercial collectors are more like $30 a sqft plus expensive shipping still favors the DIY collectors on a BTU per buck basis by a very wide margin.

16%, as an example, is nontrivial.  But it's not enough to justify a lot of extra expense in a homemade panel.  Also:  Comments about things like "if the thickness is right" for the paint, and the example being not the paint but a black chrome coating (in a panel coming from a commercial operation with a test lab AND certification by another test lab), says to me that getting the coating right for selective absorption is not an easy task and getting it wrong might make the performance worse, rather than better.

If I want an extra 16% I think I'll just make the panel a little larger and stick with the handier paint, rather than using the special-order stuff and hoping I apply it correctly.

But that's just me, and I'm a confirmed follower of the KISS principle.  The fancier paint may help nontrivially and probably won't hurt significantly if misapplied.  So others might chose to try it.  (Especially if it's less than a 16% increase in the project's cost and hassle-factor, or more than a 16% boost in "my tech makes me proud".)

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2010, 11:37:06 AM »
I can personally speak about copper versus aluminum in direct sunlight.  You don't just pick up unpainted copper that has been laying in direct sunlight whereas matte black aluminum is hot to the touch but doesn't have the same painful potential.  Most of your aluminum materials in construction are significantly doped whereas the sheet copper materials are 97% pure or better.  Just a thought.

That might be more a sign of better conductivity (pulling heat from the whole piece and applying it to your fingers) or surface conductivity to your fingers.

Nevertheless, copper should work better than aluminum.  So it's a matter of cost and construction hassle.  (I'd be tempted to use copper flashing and solder it to the pipes, for maximum conductivity, if the price isn't prohibitive.  Heat is conducted by electrons so a good electrical connection is 'way better than heat sink paste and an anticorrosion coating between the components (rather than coating the whole assembly)).

MattM

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2010, 02:32:56 PM »
At under $2 a square foot for copper foil I'm surprise people don't use it more for DIY projects.

GaryGary

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2010, 03:40:25 PM »
Selective coatings that have low emissivity in the long IR are used on some commercial collectors.  They do show a significant performance gain over black painted absorbers.  For example, you can see this in the SRCC results for the Heliodyne Gobi flat plate collector by comparing the black painted absorber version with the black chrome selective finish version:

Blat painted: http://securedb.fsec.ucf.edu/srcc/coll_detail?srcc_id=1981085D
Selective black chrome: http://securedb.fsec.ucf.edu/srcc/coll_detail?srcc_id=2007026D
I believe that these panels are the same except for the selective coating on one and black paint on the other.
This link lists all the SRCC tested panels -- I think that Radco also offers black paint and selective coating in an otherwise identical collector.

On the efficiency curves, the intercept values are nearly equal, but the slope on the selective one is -0.837 BTU/hr-Ft^2-F vs -1.07 for the black painted absorber.  
If you look at the sunny day heat captured for the category D operation, the selective one delivers 24.3K BTU/day, and the black painted one delivers 20.9 K BTU/day -- so the selective one collects about 5% more heat than the black paint one.

Actually, that's over a 16% improvement in performance in category D (testing intended to model water heating in a cold climate).

Yet in category C (water heating in a warm climate) they're virtually identical (with the black one slightly ahead of the selective coating).

Quote
I think your logic is basically OK, but I think that when the absorber radiates heavily in the long IR (as the black paint one will), the glass does block a lot of that radiation, but it absorbs it and gets warmer and loses more heat because of that.
Whatever the reason, selective coatings do show an advantage in every test that I have seen.

If you are building your own panel, the flat black paint does fine, but if you want to get part of the way to what a selective coating will do, the Thermalox partly selective paint that is available in spray cans and has an long IR emissivity of about 0.5 when applied at the right thickness to well cleaned bare aluminum might be a good choice.  The fact that good DIY collectors can be built for about $5 a sqft where commercial collectors are more like $30 a sqft plus expensive shipping still favors the DIY collectors on a BTU per buck basis by a very wide margin.

16%, as an example, is nontrivial.  But it's not enough to justify a lot of extra expense in a homemade panel.  Also:  Comments about things like "if the thickness is right" for the paint, and the example being not the paint but a black chrome coating (in a panel coming from a commercial operation with a test lab AND certification by another test lab), says to me that getting the coating right for selective absorption is not an easy task and getting it wrong might make the performance worse, rather than better.

If I want an extra 16% I think I'll just make the panel a little larger and stick with the handier paint, rather than using the special-order stuff and hoping I apply it correctly.

But that's just me, and I'm a confirmed follower of the KISS principle.  The fancier paint may help nontrivially and probably won't hurt significantly if misapplied.  So others might chose to try it.  (Especially if it's less than a 16% increase in the project's cost and hassle-factor, or more than a 16% boost in "my tech makes me proud".)

Hi,
I've not had a chance to use the Thermalox yet, but I do plan to do a small panel test to compare it to black paint.  I have the can of Thermalox in hand, just have not gotten around to doing it.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PEXCollector/SmallPanelTests.htm
These side by side tests are great for seeing what the benefit is (if any).

If you use the spray cans, it really only adds about 30 cents a sqft, so it does not have to improve performance very much to pay its way, and you have to do the spraying either way, so it does not seem like any extra work.

Paul did his collector with the Thermalox:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterHeating/Metal1K/Metal1K.htm

Gary






GaryGary

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Re: hot water panel paint
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2010, 03:45:56 PM »
At under $2 a square foot for copper foil I'm surprise people don't use it more for DIY projects.
Hi,
It may be to thin.
For a 4.5 inch wide fin, the copper needs to be about 0.008 inch thick to get good fin efficiency.

See the bottom of this page for fin efficiency numbers:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/WaterHeating/Fins/Fins.htm

You can buy 0.018 thick aluminum which works well for fins up to about 6 inches in width for a bit over $1 per sqft.

The 0.008 copper at 4.5 inches wide gives 96% fin efficiency.
The 0.018 aluminum at 6 inches wide gives 94% fin efficiency.

Gary