Getting my hydro project going

[rossw]

This doesn't really seem to be the case. At full strength at the turbine I get 8A @ 110V, when I go back to where the charger is 700ft away I get 105.4V and 5A. I expect the voltage drop but not the amperage drop, I though only voltage dropped over distance?

In a series circuit, the current will be the same throughout. For it to be otherwise means one of two things in my mind:
 1. One, the other or both of your meters are telling you lies!
or
 2. It's not a series circuit. Perhaps over the 700' you have a substantial leakage current. Is this burried cable? Could it be full of water?
    Is there a take-off circuit somewhere else that's sucking about 1/3 of your power?

As you say, I would expect a drop in voltage ove that distance with that size cable. 10 AWG copper is 3.189 ohms per Km, so 700' = 213m. (total length 426m) = 1.36 ohms, or 10.8 volts drop at 8A (6.75 volts at 5A). You've measured 4.6V drop - perhaps your 700' isn't quite that far? But it supports better, the 5A measurement.

[Jedon]

I could have a current leak, the wire is not buried.
I'd be happy with 5A @ 108V if I was actually getting that much power into my batteries but I'm not, I put a 500A 50mV shunt on the output of the IOTA and get .2mV so what, 100 watts?? I think the IOTA needs to be fed much higher DC voltage than I'm giving it.

[rossw]

I could have a current leak, the wire is not buried.
I'd be happy with 5A @ 108V if I was actually getting that much power into my batteries but I'm not, I put a 500A 50mV shunt on the output of the IOTA and get .2mV so what, 100 watts?? I think the IOTA needs to be fed much higher DC voltage than I'm giving it.

You really need a more suitable shunt. Few shunts in the 500 amp range are going to be within a percent - and 1% of 500A is 5A!
If we take your 0.2mv as accuate, thats saying 2A. (500A/50mV = 10A/mV or 0.1mV=1A).

It might be a good time to invest in a DC-capable clamp meter. These are invaluable for the sort of work you're doing. An added benefit is that if you need a more sensitive meter, you can loop your wire through the jaws twice and it'll read 2* (1A will read as 2A), or loop it 10 times if you can - for a 10* current multiplier to read really small currents safely.

[Jedon]

I agree, my multimeter and wiring isn't of such high quality that it can accurately read fractions of a mV.

After many more measurements I am thinking that the current difference is a wild goose chase since it varies quite a bit and I'm not measuring them at the same time under the same conditions.

The 19psi is static, from GPS and Google Earth I though I had about 100' of drop but it turned out to be half that. Due to some fun with the pipes I don't have the pressure gauge on it at the moment.

If I should only be making 200W after all is said and done, perhaps it's all working like it should be and I just have over inflated ideas of how much power I should be getting due to going off the raw output of the hydro.
I noticed that now that I am running 4 1/2 nozzles that some air is getting into the pipe, my intake is a 3" pipe through a damn and even though there is water above the damn it doesn't seem to be letting quite enough through to keep the intake pipe fed. I guess I'll put one one of the smaller nozzles back on.
I fiddled with it some more and this time was more scientific about it, here are my results:
Full Field:
At the power shed ( 750ft from the turbine ) voltage was 109V to the charger and the batteries were are 50.1. Later when the sun was on the 800W of PV the battery voltage went up to 53V and the hydro voltage went up to 114.4V so there is a correlation between the voltage of the batteries and the loaded hydro voltage.
I went down the the turbine and measured 108.8V when the voltage at the shed was 109.2V, I then shut it off and connected my multimeter to read current and got 8.4A which then fluctuated a bit and even went down to 5.2A when some air was in the pipe.
To test the water pressure I then measured with nozzles off:
1 nozzle  1.5A @ 107.7V
2 nozzles 3.1A @ 109.4V
3 nozzles 4.6A @ 109.6V
4 nozzles 8.4A @ 108.8V
I noticed that there was more load on the unit with my meter than with the IOTA alone, it spins slower when I measure amps than when I measure volts.
I then started playing with the field strength:

1/8th turn off full field:
1 nozzle  1.5A @ 109.3V
2 nozzles 2.7A @ 111.8V
3 nozzles 3.9A @ 113.3V
4 nozzles 4.8A @ 113.8V

1/4 turn off full:
1 nozzle  1.5A @ 108.7V
2 nozzles 3.0A @ 111.2V
3 nozzles 3.8A @ 112.7V
4 nozzles 4.5A @ 112.8V

3/8 turn off of full:
1 nozzle  2.8A @ 106.9V
2 nozzles 5.8A @ 105.8V
3 nozzles 5.8A @ 106.5V
4 nozzles 5.8A @ 103.4V

1/2 turn off full field
1 nozzle  3.7A @ 79.6V
2 nozzles 3.8A @ 77.7V
3 nozzles 3.8A @ 77.7V
4 nozzles 3.8A @ 77.7V

I left it at 1/8th off of full then took readings for a while, the voltage slowly dropped down to 110.3V.
Back at the power shed it was 108.8. A bit later when the batteries got up to 52.2 from the solar it was 112.8, then 114.4 @ 53.3V.

I tried connecting the hydro right to the batteries and it drops the hydro voltage down to match the batteries, it didn't seem to make much power like that but I don't really have any way to measure it besides seeing what the battery voltage is in the morning.

I can set the TS-60 to diversion mode but I've never come close to needing a dump load so far.

Right now the hydro alternator is set for high voltage wye, I could wire it into delta and try hooking it directly to the batteries like that? Perhaps line losses at the lower voltage would be offset by the inefficiencies of the charger?

[ghurd]

"I noticed that there was more load on the unit with my meter than with the IOTA alone, it spins slower when I measure amps than when I measure volts."
I don't like the sound of that.
Are the amp readings amps to the IOTA, or from Pos to Neg?

IRP (Jerry rig) will be better than Delta.
It may be an option.  109V in Star would be about 64V in either Delta or IRP.  The line loss will be higher. 
IRP looks better at high RPM (with my stuff, smaller), and you have high RPM.
G-

[Jedon]

I was reading from pos to neg, I'll take new measurements reading neg to neg coming out of the alternator as well as going into the charger.
I called IOTA and they said performance falls off as voltage decreases and that if I was feeding it DC it wanted more like 130V instead of the 106-114V I'm feeding it.
I asked about perhaps bypassing the rectifiers on the alternator and feeding the charger wild AC and they said that would probably work better so I'll give that a try.

[hydrosun]

I don't think you can feed the charger 3 phase wild AC. Retry measuring the amps with the rectifier from negative to negative.
 I'm surprised your meter isn't burnt up by measuring amperage from positive to negative. Perhaps your leads have developed a higher resistance connection. You can get away with doing that with solar panels for short circuit amperage but not with a hydro. I guess with the iota the batteries weren't able to backfeed the line so the shorted out hydro slowed down and prevented the output from going over the meters limit.  That would explain why the turbine slowed down when measuring amperage and the odd readings.
.        I think you really need to see what the running pressure is and then either measure the actual water used or the theoretical water flow out the size nozzles and at your pressure. That info would tell you the amount of power to expect from your setup. Then if the output is much lower you can begin to figure out why. If it is close then just relax and enjoy.
Using 1/2 inch nozzles you may be causing a minor whorlpool and sucking air into the input. If the end of the pipe isn't submerge far enough that can happen at higher flows. Do you have a vent pipe to let air escape a few feet below the intake? It's also needed to let air in if the intake becomes completely blocked or you have a shutoff valve at the top.  Without a pressure gauge it is hard to decide if the pressure drop from adding a larger nozzle is reducing the amount of power more than is added by a larger volume of water. The maximum power that a pipe can deliver is when you lose less than 40% of the pressure. But that is complicated by a slower turbine and lower voltage into the charger.
Judging by the battery voltages when fed by solar and hydro I would guess that the hydro output is much less than the solar. Without accurate meters and gauges everything is just guessing. But it is producing power!!!!
I get my coanda screens from Bob Weir at hydroscreens.com  They are 1 foot square and he can put whatever ends on it you want. I like a 1 foot square stainless accelleration plate above it to get a smooth flow of water over the screen.  Originally I put the screens in at 45 degrees but I'm switching to a lower slope to decrease the tendency of the water to overshoot in higher flows. You can get a stainless box to collect the water and attach your pipe but I've always made a ferrocement box for that purpose. It's a lot heavier hauling it into place but is a lot cheaper. I then cement rocks all around it to hold it into place and make it look more like a natural feature of the stream.  In warmer weather the screens sometimes grow algae that needs to be scrubbed off. Otherwise they are usually trouble free. Some intakes aren't easy to get to and it's worth every penny to get the self cleaning screen.  Oddly I don't have them on my personal hydro. I have a 15 gallon barrel with slots cut with a circular saw every inch that is placed in a hole dug next to the stream that is fed water from the stream with a flexible 6 inch drainage pipe. I only have to clean it a few times a winter.  So every intake is different.
GPS isn't great for elevations. I just use a sight level or even just my arm in front of me to aim at a spot level with my eyes. That spot is about 5 feet (or whatever your height of your eyes) higher than my feet. I walk to that spot and do it again. By counting the times I do this and multiply by five I get the elevation change in rough numbers. In thick brush or slight slopes this may get harder.  But that is how I've gotten close enough for designing the system. After the pipe is in the pressure gauge will confirm if you are close.
Chris

[Jedon]

Yeah I didn't know it was 3 phase but it is. I measured the right way and now I'm getting:
From hydro at shed: 1.88a at 112.4v ( 211 watts )
Out of IOTA: 3.56a at 50.7v ( 180 watts )
So the charger is being 85% efficient which seems about right?
My guy feeling form our house power usage is that 180 watts seems about what we are getting, about enough to break even most of the time.
Now I can go futz with the alternator and see how much more power I can eek out of it.

[hydrosun]

It seems you have a valid number for the output watts. But of course it is only as accurate as your meter.  If you started with 19 psi and are using 4  1/2 inch nozzles they would let out about 100 gallons/minute and you would lose about 6 psi through 600 feet 3 inch pipe. So 100 gpm at 30 feet heat gives about 300 watts. You might be losing a bit more pressure due to air trapped in the pipe somewhere. A pressure gauge will tell you where to start to understand why you are getting 2/3 of the predicted output.  With the open circuit voltage and running voltage numbers I don't think that fiddling with the alternator will change things much, but go ahead and try.
Chris

[Jedon]

I only have 3 of the 1/2" nozzles going right now, it was getting some air in the system with all 4 on.
So if I added another 400ft of pipe and doubled the pressure, would I double my power?

[hydrosun]

If you are at the maximum output for the Harris at your pressure you won't double the output with double the pressure. Without a running pressure number I can't tell what is going on now, never mind predict what may happen if you make changes to the system.  The Harris puts out max of 500 watts per 1000 rpm.  The rpm doubles from 75 feet to 300 feet head. So you can see it isn't linear with pressure increase. The other variable is how much pressure is lost in the pipe. Adding more pipe will allow you to get more pressure and be able to produce the same amount of power with smaller nozzles and less water. With the same size nozzles the amount of water let out will increase but the pipe friction losses will increase too. The other variable is the higher rpm will have a higher potential voltage and might be better for the input to the iota charger.  So the power output  depends on many factors.  You will get more power if the pipe losses don't use up the increased potential pressure.
If you are only using 3 of the 1/2 inch nozzles then your 211 watts is closer to the predicted output.
Chris