More Pie - Larger sky

[wdyasq]

SCiBTM is a rechargeable battery with superb safety.
By using newly developed oxide materials, SCiBTM holds high resistance toward thermal runaway resulting from short circuiting caused by physical stress. SCiBTM also have excellent characteristics such as, long life with minimal capacity loss even after 6,000 charge-discharge cycles, rapid charging capability with ability to charge 90% of the capacity in as fast as 5 minutes. High power output with performance equivalent to that of an EDLC (Electric Double-Layer Capacitors), and good cryogenic performance with ability to function even at -30℃

http://www.scib.jp/en/index.htm

I'm still waiting on the electricity so cheap you won't even be metered promised when I was young ...

and the new ice age ...
and cheap solar cells ...
and the 300mpg carburetor ...

This just in ... Energizer Bunny arrested. Charged with battery!

Ron

[bj]

Ron:  It looked interesting, as far as info went.  So sent off for more info.  Toshiba has a pretty good reputation,
so we will see.  Will post if I get anything back.
Thanks for the heads up.

[dnix71]

Vaporware. It's been around for 3 years now and no one seems to have one for sale. You can't charge an EV instantly anyway. The Tesla holds about 68kwh of charge.

At 240 volts it would take 284 amps for an hour to fully charge a Tesla. What kind of cable would you use for that, 0000 maybe? Want you car back on the road in 15 minutes, then you're going to have to pull 1133 amps for 15 minutes.

Better learn how to bicycle. EV's are never going to happen. The grid doesn't have that kind of extra capacity.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_electricity_does_the_average_American_household_use   The Tesla uses 2 days average grid demand per person for a fillup and that is the most advanced practical EV ever made.

[bj]

   Got an E-mail back from Toshiba, on SCiB batt packs;

"Thank you for your inquiry toward our product.

Our battery packs will be custom built according to our customers' required specifications.

Therefore, please have an understanding for the fact that we cannot attend to low volume needs."

Best Regards,
Super Charge Battery DIv.
Toshiba Corporation

I am no wiser, but have to give them credit for being punctual

[zap]

EV's are never going to happen.

Since when is an EV only a $130K vehicle with 4 wheels?

Using the Tesla as the baseline EV for your theory that EV's will never happen is akin to saying power from the grid will always be cheaper than RE... then using the most expensive manufactured mill you can find or NASA grade solar panels as an example of how expensive RE will be.

[Norm]

   Got an E-mail back from Toshiba, on SCiB batt packs;

 
Therefore, please have an understanding for the fact that we cannot attend to low volume needs."

Therefore, please have an understanding the persons toes you step on today may
be the person whose - - - you may be - - - - - - g tomorrow

[dnix71]

Zap, the power required to operate a real car that runs solely on batteries is beyond the capacity of the grid to supply. Tesla batteries last 10 years with decent service, so the cost per year is 13K plus the electricity to run it. There are certainly less expansive batteries like lead acid, but you won't get 10 years out of a set small enough to actually fit in a passenger car.

Most people in the US just don't get it. We use 5 times as much energy per capita as the world average. Even if EV's were free they wouldn't change the equation, just shift the load from liquid fuel to electrons freed using liquid fuel. There won't be coal much longer. China is using one-half of the whole world's total just to make electricity and smelt steel.   http://www.businessinsider.com/can-the-chinese-coal-monster-carry-global-demand-2010-7

I use 1 KWH a day from the grid. If I got a Tesla free it would take 2 months grid use to fill up once.

[zap]

It's good to know this discussion has been about real cars.

I know for a fact that many of the faux cars out there require absolutely zero energy to travel from point A to point B and back in which case the current grid could provide more than enough energy...

[dnix71]

Zap, the faux EVs I refer to are like the ones California's Zap Motors offered for a while. They had three wheels and were sold as EV's but did not meet or have to meet safety and hp/weight ratios of passenger cars under US laws because a 3-wheeled vehicle is considered a motorcycle under US DOT rules. They didn't have a/c, either. The Tesla does. The Tesla is the only real car that happens to work from batteries alone.

Google search '3 wheeled ev' and lots of makes and models turn up. None are real cars, though.

Battery powered golf carts that are exempt from normal road rules in some communities are also faux cars. If America is willing to allow toys on the road, then we can have ev's for local transportation without breaking the bank. But if they actually want something road-worthy and safe, then they are out of luck.

Tata's air car is an outright scam, since the energy density of compressed air is too low to store enough energy to do more than go around the block.

[bj]

   Norm:  just got back to this, and ya---that was my take on it too.  But, I will save the E-mail, and maybe
some day, I can use it to pee in their cornflakes.

[joestue]

The average household depending on where you get your numbers from consumes anywhere from 24 to 48 kilowatt hours a day. national average in 2001 was 29.

the average EV uses 300 watt hours per mile, and that's for largish conversions running ac drives retrofitted into the car, these smart cars will run about half of that. figure 12,000 miles a year thats 3600 Kwh/year. or 25% more residential load.
households consume only 21 % of the electrical grid in the first place. even if you figure twice as many cars, assuming you replace 3% of the cars per year its a NON ISSUE.

see here: http://www.greencarreports.com/blog/1047023_no-electric-vehicles-wont-bring-down-the-u-s-power-grid

yes, it will cause growing pains in dense urban areas, but its more of a regulatory nightmare, not a capacity nightmare, if anything they can serve to reduce the cost of electricity because some of the charging will happen at night, and in the case of charging at work from public charging stations, they will most certainly be shut off during peak hours, conserving the natural gas "peaking" plants that cost 25-35 cents/kwh to run.

one important thing to remember is that electricity's value is some 14 times its cost. this is what will ultimately keep the capacity up and the cost down.

[Bruce S]

I'd like to jump in here and ask a few questions...
Please define "real" car. distance needed to go before being considered a real car and what items must be in the car, such as AC, radio etc.

Must the car be factory built? or merely pass road safety as mandated.
There currently tons of crap-ola in factory built cars that are not necessary, even new cars are now offered once again without AC or Radio or even power windows.

I'm curious of what the baseline needs to be.

Bruce S
 

[zap]

the average EV uses 300 watt hours per mile, and that's for largish conversions running ac drives retrofitted into the car, these smart cars will run about half of that. figure 12,000 miles a year thats 3600 Kwh/year. or 25% more residential load.
households consume only 21 % of the electrical grid in the first place. even if you figure twice as many cars, assuming you replace 3% of the cars per year its a NON ISSUE.

According to Tesla (http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/roadster-efficiency-and-range), the roaster uses around 150 wh/mile @ 30 mph.  According to the US Department of Transportation, Bureau of Transportation Statistics, the average U.S. commute is 32 mph.
(These are the newest numbers I could find w/out a lot of hassle at the U.S. DOT website.http://www.ridetowork.org/transportation-fact-sheet)

If you replaced 3% of ICE vehicles per year, grid capacity should be freed up from the lessening of ICE infrastructure, i.e. gas stations and repair stations.

[dnix71]

Bruce, GM's EV, the first one, was test driven by the local newspaper reporter in Fort Lauderdale many years ago. Gary Stein is not someone I would want to be associated with because of his politics and open contempt for Christianity, so you know how "liberal" or "left of center" he was by American standards. He mocked people of faith by calling them names in his writings and the Sun Sentinel made him an editor.

All that said, he was given a GM EV to use and never even made it to work that day. It was dark and raining. He had to use the a/c to defog and needed to drop off his daughter at school before going to work at the paper's building downtown. This would have been a trivial task in a gasoline powered car. He ran the batteries stone cold dead and the vehicle had to be flat bed towed back to the dealer.

He was forced to admit that battery powered cars were not ready for the real world.

A "real" car in my opinion is one that has effective defogging, no matter how it is done, meets exactly the same personal protection standards as a passenger car, does not require a motorcycle license to operate and is insured as a passenger car and not as a motorcycle. I do not expect an EV to be able to travel turnpikes or the Interstate highway system, but must be able to keep up with primary state road speeds for the full duration of it's battery power. If I can't go 50 mph I can't drive safely in south Florida except up and down the back streets. I also expect an EV to be able to go 50 miles before requiring a recharge so I can go to work and back without having to plug it in at work. I don't buy gasoline at work and I don't see why my employer should be expected to recharge my car just so I can get home.

The 150 watt-hours/mile for the Tesla is utter B.S. No one drives a steady 30 mph on a flat level road in real life and using headlights, windscreen wipers and defogging in humid weather makes 300 watt/mile a more realistic number. I don't like the extra complexity of power steering, but older people are not going to want a vehicle that is hard to steer, so power steering should at least be an option.

A Tesla would cost $3.81 worth of electricity here in south Florida to fill up assuming you use over 1,000kwh/month, $3.20 if you kept your monthly use under 1,000.

That sounds like a great deal until you consider you have to spend $100k to do it. I make $12/hour and we're only getting 35hrs/week at work so I'll sure as hell never see that kind of money. I can't even afford a new gasoline car. That's "real."

[zap]

All that said, he was given a GM EV to use and never even made it to work that day. It was dark and raining. He had to use the a/c to defog and needed to drop off his daughter at school before going to work at the paper's building downtown. This would have been a trivial task in a gasoline powered car. He ran the batteries stone cold dead and the vehicle had to be flat bed towed back to the dealer.

He was forced to admit that battery powered cars were not ready for the real world.

Yeah... everyone that had an EV1 hated them and the EV1 eventually went down in history as a complete and utter failure.

And... it's also rather astonishing that there has never been a "gasoline powered car" that has ever had a problem... or any product for that matter, except the EV1, that wasn't 100% perfect right out of the gate. (TIC)

[Bruce S]

Bruce, GM's EV, the first one, was test driven by the local newspaper reporter in Fort Lauderdale many years ago. Gary Stein is not someone I would want to be associated with because of his politics and open contempt for Christianity, so you know how "liberal" or "left of center" he was by American standards. He mocked people of faith by calling them names in his writings and the Sun Sentinel made him an editor.

All that said, he was given a GM EV to use and never even made it to work that day. It was dark and raining. He had to use the a/c to defog and needed to drop off his daughter at school before going to work at the paper's building downtown. This would have been a trivial task in a gasoline powered car. He ran the batteries stone cold dead and the vehicle had to be flat bed towed back to the dealer.

He was forced to admit that battery powered cars were not ready for the real world.

A "real" car in my opinion is one that has effective defogging, no matter how it is done, meets exactly the same personal protection standards as a passenger car, does not require a motorcycle license to operate and is insured as a passenger car and not as a motorcycle. I do not expect an EV to be able to travel turnpikes or the Interstate highway system, but must be able to keep up with primary state road speeds for the full duration of it's battery power. If I can't go 50 mph I can't drive safely in south Florida except up and down the back streets. I also expect an EV to be able to go 50 miles before requiring a recharge so I can go to work and back without having to plug it in at work. I don't buy gasoline at work and I don't see why my employer should be expected to recharge my car just so I can get home.

The 150 watt-hours/mile for the Tesla is utter B.S. No one drives a steady 30 mph on a flat level road in real life and using headlights, windscreen wipers and defogging in humid weather makes 300 watt/mile a more realistic number. I don't like the extra complexity of power steering, but older people are not going to want a vehicle that is hard to steer, so power steering should at least be an option.

A Tesla would cost $3.81 worth of electricity here in south Florida to fill up assuming you use over 1,000kwh/month, $3.20 if you kept your monthly use under 1,000.

That sounds like a great deal until you consider you have to spend $100k to do it. I make $12/hour and we're only getting 35hrs/week at work so I'll sure as hell never see that kind of money. I can't even afford a new gasoline car. That's "real."

If this is all you want then that's almost too easy, heck even the home built ones are able to do this. I believe even Windstuff Ed has his built by now. Commanda in Australia had her's and it runs on the thunder sky batteries and I know from several people ( Nurses at several hospitals actually) say when its gets hot it gets HOT!, so A/C is needed as much as defogger would be.

Saying never isn't "real" either"
 
Here is a pic of one while attending a reunion at Discovery World just back on the 25th of June 2010. The man who owns it is 75 and refuses to drive any faster than posted speed limit, 35 downtown Milwaukee, same time as summer fest was going on with Tom Petty headlining  .
I will not spend 100k on a car either and EV1 was an overall success, google "who killed the electric car". Car was SOooo good people wanted to buy them out right from GM.
Corbin Sparrow comes to mind, been around for years, poor management doomed them NOT the car.
I still need to know if you're wanting to apply US automaker factory rules, NASCAR rules or EU rules. For proper discussion there needs to be a baseline of spec with which to abide by.
I won't even count the 3-wheelers or E-bike/scooters even though our daughter's is 3 years old now and still going as fast as ever and a automobile drivers' license is required and can go as fast as the day it was delivered.

"REAL" is relative so lets set some ground rules rather than speculating.

Cheers
Bruce S
 
 

[TomW]

And... it's also rather astonishing that there has never been a "gasoline powered car" that has ever had a problem... or any product for that matter, except the EV1, that wasn't 100% perfect right out of the gate. (TIC)

I don't know about that but I bought a Ford Ranger in '89 that came with the worlds worst tires on it. Firestones that didn't last a year. Nobody fessed up on responsibility on that one, either.

Frankly, I want my '49 ford pickup back with the flat head 8 in it that I bought in 1969 for $50.

I don't recall the gas mileage it got but it didn't need many stops at the pump and I could toss anything in it and haul it. Not very fast but it never left me stranded, ever.

EV will happen but likely too little and too late.

I doubt the power grid could smoothly handle a fast transition to electrically powering individual transportation any time soon.

I would love one that I could charge with wind / solar, however I will not spend 30 or 40 grand so I can be a guinea pig while they sort out the technical side.

I suppose Jay Leno and Ed Begly can afford to pay to test high end gear for manufacturers but I cannot.

Just my "EV car" rant today!

Tom

[dnix71]

The Corbin Sparrow had two wheels in the front and one in the back. Under US laws it's a motocycle. Zap's Xebra and Myers NmG were also 3-wheelers.

http://www.hybridcars.com/electric-car

The fully electric BMW Smart car that is coming out may meet all the passenger car safety requirements it's gasoline cousin does, but neither are real cars. If you hit a solid barrier at high speed in the gas version you will die in spite of the air bag and welded passenger cage. The vehicle is so small that it has no crumple zone. It's also so small that people laugh at it on the road. The electric version might make more sense than the gas version. The gas version's mileage is so bad that full sized passenger cars from twenty years earlier do as well.

The BYD sold in China doesn't have to meet crash standards in the US. Those crash standards are not trivial. Lots of nice diesel/gasoline cars in Europe don't meet the standards, either, so they can't be sold here.  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26444467/  Those safety rules hamper importing fuel efficient cars from Europe.

That's my point. If America is willing to allow lightweight less safe cars, then EV's are easy. But if the safety standards are lowered it would make a lot more sense to just keep burning gasoline or diesel and buy something off the shelf.  http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/fuel-economy/4276559
Look at the related stories at the bottom of the article, too.

[DamonHD]

If I were to have to get a vehicle as a run-around (and as my kids get older then I may be required to do free taxi service) then I would *far* rather have an EV that I can charge at home from my PV or the grid (I dislike petrol stations), that I understand better (eg electronics rather than ICE), that is quiet and potentially has zero CO2 emissions, and which my children are unlikely to want to 'borrow' to show off to their mates!  %-P

And indeed no petrol car has ever failed, eg like my dad's auto choke that always cut out at the first or second set of lights, or crashed an burned igniting the occupants and innocent bystanders, etc, etc.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and in any case what's perfect for you is unlikely to perfect for me in quiet suburban London.

Rgds

Damon

[Bruce S]

The Corbin Sparrow had two wheels in the front and one in the back. Under US laws it's a motocycle. Zap's Xebra and Myers NmG were also 3-wheelers.

http://www.hybridcars.com/electric-car

The fully electric BMW Smart car that is coming out may meet all the passenger car safety requirements it's gasoline cousin does, but neither are real cars. If you hit a solid barrier at high speed in the gas version you will die in spite of the air bag and welded passenger cage. The vehicle is so small that it has no crumple zone. It's also so small that people laugh at it on the road. The electric version might make more sense than the gas version. The gas version's mileage is so bad that full sized passenger cars from twenty years earlier do as well.

The BYD sold in China doesn't have to meet crash standards in the US. Those crash standards are not trivial. Lots of nice diesel/gasoline cars in Europe don't meet the standards, either, so they can't be sold here.  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26444467/  Those safety rules hamper importing fuel efficient cars from Europe.

That's my point. If America is willing to allow lightweight less safe cars, then EV's are easy. But if the safety standards are lowered it would make a lot more sense to just keep burning gasoline or diesel and buy something off the shelf.  http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/fuel-economy/4276559
Look at the related stories at the bottom of the article, too.

I know the Sparrow well, there's even one still in working condition at Kent state or was last year & the moniker for that style is tadpole, the reverse is delta.
If its the safety issue then all the lawyering  up stupid people have caused by suing car makers for not being smart enough to buckle up , then its not the EV's fault.

I have driven cars & motorcycles in the EU and other continents that will never be sold here because of safety rules. The Suzuki Firefly in S.Arabia had NO seat-belts but had one very cold A/C.

I'm still not worried about the 3-wheelers I'm still looking for a base line of how to go about which rules to use for EVs do we talk about them based on US rules only? if so that's not fair to our fellow posters in the EU who have heater wires built right into the windshield of their smart cars and MBs that aren't any larger.
Calling them not real cars is a bit much don't you think, the Mini-coup original isn't much larger actually 1/3 smaller than the new one and gets better mileage

Again I need a detailed explanation of what you define as "real" car.

Just asking for ground rules based on facts and fairness.

Cheers;
Bruce S
 

[dnix71]

I don't disagree with EU safety rules, but in the US we have our rules and expect them to be followed.

A "real" car, EV or not,  must meet US crash test and all other safety standards for either passenger cars or sport utility vehicles. SUV's in the US have lower standards for mileage and safety. It must have 4 wheels so it is not classed as a motorcycle for license or insurance purposes.

If it's an EV it must have a real world range of 50 miles so someone can do a short commute and return home on a full charge. If an EV it must charge to 1/2 capacity from 120vac at home over night in 12 hours, but a faster charging option from 240vac is fine. The batteries must either last the life of the vehicle or be able to be recycled like lead acid batteries can, and if the batteries have to be replaced they must be able to be done by the dealer in no more than 1 business day, with 14 days notice to the dealer that the battery capacity has diminished to the point that the vehicle has only 40 miles range on a full charge.

The vehicle must be able to be driven 50 mph [80 km/h] for the full battery life. It does not have to be interstate/autoban/turnpike speed worthy. It must also have power steering and power assist braking as an option. It must also have enough room for 4 adults to be seated according to safety standards [Honda Fit size or larger].

A real EV has to have at least a 5 year/50k mile warranty on power/drivetrain/computers just like US cars must meet. Since the batteries are part of the power system, any EV must still have 90% of it's battery range after 5 years or the dealer has to repair/replace to meet that standard at the end of 5 years when the warranty is released.

If an EV maker wants to only lease and never sell, that's fine, too. GM, Ford and others did nothing wrong in demanding their vehicles back at the end of the lease program. If you want to own an EV outright, you can convert your own. Car makers may not own all the rights to certain technology in the vehicle and may be required to insure it's proper disposal at the end of the vehicle's life.

[Bruce S]

I don't disagree with EU safety rules, but in the US we have our rules and expect them to be followed.

A "real" car, EV or not,  must meet US crash test and all other safety standards for either passenger cars or sport utility vehicles. SUV's in the US have lower standards for mileage and safety. It must have 4 wheels so it is not classed as a motorcycle for license or insurance purposes.

If it's an EV it must have a real world range of 50 miles so someone can do a short commute and return home on a full charge. If an EV it must charge to 1/2 capacity from 120vac at home over night in 12 hours, but a faster charging option from 240vac is fine. The batteries must either last the life of the vehicle or be able to be recycled like lead acid batteries can, and if the batteries have to be replaced they must be able to be done by the dealer in no more than 1 business day, with 14 days notice to the dealer that the battery capacity has diminished to the point that the vehicle has only 40 miles range on a full charge.

The vehicle must be able to be driven 50 mph [80 km/h] for the full battery life. It does not have to be interstate/autoban/turnpike speed worthy. It must also have power steering and power assist braking as an option. It must also have enough room for 4 adults to be seated according to safety standards [Honda Fit size or larger].

A real EV has to have at least a 5 year/50k mile warranty on power/drivetrain/computers just like US cars must meet. Since the batteries are part of the power system, any EV must still have 90% of it's battery range after 5 years or the dealer has to repair/replace to meet that standard at the end of 5 years when the warranty is released.

If an EV maker wants to only lease and never sell, that's fine, too. GM, Ford and others did nothing wrong in demanding their vehicles back at the end of the lease program. If you want to own an EV outright, you can convert your own. Car makers may not own all the rights to certain technology in the vehicle and may be required to insure it's proper disposal at the end of the vehicle's life.

And I thought you wanted something hard.
These standards are being met by people doing DIY already, even the US electricar builder who had S10 truck pulled right off the assembly line directly from GM and installed their stuff are still around. They had ALL this including highway speeds charging from 120Vac was 8hrs battery pack swap is easy enough owner can do it in a day if they wish to, even Universal Batteries had batteries that were a direct swap (less cap and less weight) battery pack lasted (data provided by at least one person who still owns the car) and not trying to toast the packs was 5+ years. New battery packs would cost less than $3K. This includes A/C.

many more that have been done including DIY S10 trucks are available and if need be I can contact the local EV group right here in good ole StL and get more if you wish.

You are being way too easy on factory specs though, other including Gov is asking the EVs to have the same has ICE based cars. I kinda like the RAV4 EV myself, but I don't like to cost of decent tires for it. Sits too high for my taste.

 

[Bruce S]

And... it's also rather astonishing that there has never been a "gasoline powered car" that has ever had a problem... or any product for that matter, except the EV1, that wasn't 100% perfect right out of the gate. (TIC)

I don't know about that but I bought a Ford Ranger in '89 that came with the worlds worst tires on it. Firestones that didn't last a year. Nobody fessed up on responsibility on that one, either.

Frankly, I want my '49 ford pickup back with the flat head 8 in it that I bought in 1969 for $50.

I don't recall the gas mileage it got but it didn't need many stops at the pump and I could toss anything in it and haul it. Not very fast but it never left me stranded, ever.

EV will happen but likely too little and too late.

I doubt the power grid could smoothly handle a fast transition to electrically powering individual transportation any time soon.

I would love one that I could charge with wind / solar, however I will not spend 30 or 40 grand so I can be a guinea pig while they sort out the technical side.

I suppose Jay Leno and Ed Begly can afford to pay to test high end gear for manufacturers but I cannot.

Just my "EV car" rant today!

Tom

Tom:
My opinion of Jay Leno is not for family posting sites  .

Cheers
Bruce S

[wdyasq]

Here is a bit more pie in the sky .....

http://www.gizmag.com/carbon-nanotube-electrodes-increase-lithium-battery-capacity/15716/

I don't see the electric car in my near future ... and after reading in this thread the Tesla uses 300W/mile .... I think I may need to call bull defecation on that one. World class cyclists (think of a new Lance Armstrong ... or just a rebuilt one) can get about that - per hour/power but not for an hour.

Now one gallon of gasoline is ~39kWh of power - and that sounds about right as a gasoline generator gets about 10kWh per gallon of fuel and a diesel about 25-35% more.

The Tesla has 68?kWh of storage and goes 250? miles per charge? ... that means it has the fuel storage equivalent of  ~1.75 gallons of gasoline.  Now - that is about 3X better in fuel mileage one of them Lotus cars will do with a gas engine ... and it makes sense as there is very little (relative) heat produced. I think their claim of "0-60 in 4 seconds and 250 miles a charge can't be done at the same time.

Although a 12 second in a quarter mile Corvette that gets 20mpg doesn't do it with WOT driving either. And THAT was doable 40 years ago.

I think the first practical EVs will be motorcycles. Although I don't think I want to be in traffic on a bike that can't run away from trouble. I have played motocross a few times on big street bikes after folks attempted bumper-cars when I was on two wheels. The ability for extreme speed is nice if they won't issue RPGs or LAWS rockets and let the situation become safer for all involved and future riders. BTW - a disarmed hand-grenade with a spoon that seems to be active gets amazing results if you let the spoon fly then throw it into a moving vehicle.

But - back to reality. I will need a vehicle that will travel ~100 mile round trip and not have me be a hazard on the road. That includes blocking traffic by occupying a lane at 30mph lower than traffic is running(IMO). If I lived much West of here (the Dallas-Fort Worth area) the range would need to double to be practical. I am not sure if one needs to haul material occasionally, as I do, and an EV works. The additional insurance of a second vehicle is sometimes more cost than the additional fuel cost for an inefficient vehicle (read pickup).

Now, this is my real world, not that 'Pie in the Sky' of EV's saving the ideal world where all the vegetables are local, the meat is organic and the politicians are honest.

Ron

edited to refer to a cyclist's power over time -

[dnix71]

WDYASQ, I thought about mentioning insurance, but didn't. Even if the car is free, you stiil have to buy a tag, and insure it. That's money people don't have now. They are losing their home and jobs, there isn't and won't be money for two cars. I would like to have an EV conversion but can't afford a second insurance policy and the state motor vehicle fees. I would love to have a motorcycle, but I value my life and health too much to risk it. Plus a decent motorbike costs more than a cheap car and is nowhere near as safe for the driver [from other drivers and bad weather].

There are jokes about welfare Cadillacs, but having a Caddy in the 'Hood makes sense. Even on public assistance you are allowed and expected to have transportaion, so whatever you choose it better be able to do whatever needs doing. An EV is limited range and size, so it can't be your primary ride. A hybrid could be a primary vehicle, but not a pure battery car and certainly not a motorcycle. The building manager where I work used to make a lot more money than he does now and bought a Harley with a sidecar. Ed rides it to work sometimes but he doesn't live far. In the US, motorcycles are rich men's toys, not the basic poor man's transportation they are in Asia.

I had a Motobecane moped in college. I got it for $40 after MB went bankrupt in the US and went back to France with their tail between their legs. I lost a lot of respect for the French after seeing them bail out like that. MB's design sucked, too. No timing adjustment except trial and error moving the flywheel and a fractional horse v-belt drive and centrifugal clutch instead of a gear box and chain. Magneto aux power that fried head and tail lights didn't help, either. 2-speed automatic Puch's were out of my budget but were much better machines. I didn't trust the Yamahopper with one rear wheel fork. It looked too quirky.