What is so special

[Harold in CR]

 about refrigeration compressors ??  I can't possibly imagine why an external- belt driven compressor can not be sourced, to run refrigeration.  I don't care about it being sealed up and built cheaply. I want to convert some refrigeration and chillers, to use an external compressor.

  I have been searching on the net for a source to buy something ??

  Why would an Automotive compressor not be suitable for this purpose ??

  I hate the thought of trying to learn refrigeration, through the Internet. Down here, it's hell getting anyone to even LOOK at a refrigerator that is not cooling ??

[ghurd]

It is my understanding regular refrigeration compressors operate at huge pressures.  Hundreds of PSI.
(400 to 600 PSI comes to mind, not sure why)

And low volume.  1/4 CFM or less comes to mind.

I doubt a common belt driven compressor could handle the pressures, and I expect the rings would leak out the freon in short order.

Maybe VF will chime in.
His info will be better than my memory!
G-

[Fused]

A lot of times when a refrigerator wont cool is due to overheating. Cleaning the coils helps prevent it. Some fridgs used a condenser fan that can go bad as well. Hard start kits can sometimes bring an old compressor back up to running but no guarantee how long. The compressor holds oil that mixes with refrigerant for lubrication. They will run high pressure on the high side but I dont know if a auto compressor can be adapted. Doubt this helps any but its worth a try.

Fused

[Harold in CR]

 I do know, for sure, that Auto compressors will typically run at 400+ pounds on a very hot day. I am thinking about an old York compressor , off Ford ?? products.

  To me, cooling off air is the same, whether in a car or in a box (Refrigerator) ??  If I remember ?? correctly, a GOOD Auto system will push 58° air out the vents ??  Won't a refrigerator or water chiller, be more efficient, because of the captive space available, and NOT having the SUN keep heating the device, like it does on a car roof ??

  I just can't believe it would be all that different.

  WAAYYY back, when I was just starting out, I bought an air compressor system, that was using a refrigerator compressor. It was belt driven, and slow. It built up an easy 100#, just took a while. It was cobbled together, used a water tank, and, as I got more working capital, I trashed the old system, and bought a more modern one.

  It was just an old cast iron compressor, with a cast iron pulley

 How difficult would it be to convert a refrigerator, and see what happens ?? I know NOTHING about A/C systems OR refrigeration.

 I know of a junk refrigerator sitting by the road, but, it's probably trashed by now. People here just LOVE to destroy stuff, then, laugh about it. 

[Fused]

Opps, maybe I got side tracked on the refrigerator. Yes they do make compressors that are belt driven on chillers. But to adapt you will need the coils on the machine checked as for sizing of the compressor. In order to do a job that will last at all needs to have the system vacuumed down to remove moisture and contaminants. Its really not possible to do right without the equipment.

Only trying to help

Fused

[Harold in CR]

 Your input is very much appreciated. I have been studying up on replacing compressors, sealed units. There seems to be a way to make enough of the equipment, so a person with SOME smarts, could change out a compressor.

 Using another compressor, from a sealed unit, as the pump down unit, the oil can be drawn out, and recycled ?? Whatever THAT means ?? 
 Then, if there is none, install schroeder valves, that can be bought at an appliance repair shop, and put them in the appropriate lines. Install a NEW dryer cartridge, and pump in clean oil. I know you need the manifold and gauges, and know how to use them, but, that could be learned as well.

 I'm thinking that the York units HAVE the schroeder valves right on top of the compressor Maybe my next trip to Florida will result in more stuff to try to get past the "Security checks".  

[Fused]

Yes, the compressor oils can be drawn out to replace with clean oil or its mostly used when changing refrigerant types.  The drier is used on the suction line to keep the refrigerant clean and to trap any dirt that may break free on the inside of the unit. (unless your working on a heat pump, then a bi flow filter is used on the liquid line) Once you have a sealed unit together the vacuumed can be pulled on the line set and watch your gauges for any movement of the low side needle. Any movement of the needle shows there's a leak. I was a HVAC contractor but I only worked with residential heating & cooling by choice. Theres a lot I dont know but hopefully others can help you.

Fused

[ghurd]

The York was different because the oil was seperate from the freon.
Ford and AMC used them back in the '70s.
They make good belt driven air compressors, if you can find one.  The junk yards around here already crushed everything older than about '90.

The 4WD guys use the Yorks for off-road big-fat-tire blower-upper-ing.  Much higher CFM than the 12V junk compressors.
G-

[JW]

" about refrigeration compressors ??  I can't possibly imagine why an external- belt driven compressor can not be sourced, to run refrigeration.  I don't care about it being sealed up and built cheaply. I want to convert some refrigeration and chillers, to use an external compressor."

In general an A/C compressor is lubricated by oil in the freon. Not very much different from how 2 cycle engines use oil premix in the gas.

A air compressor head for a shop air compressor is not lubricated the same way, its more simular to a 4 cycle engine with a crankcase. I have heard of old ac compressors (canned) being used as a vacuum pump since the internal oil can not escape in that mode.

The "high side" of most refrigeration systems is about 265 psi. A shop air compressor will in general only make 125 psi. So the extra pressure is going to force its way out thru the crankcase, blowing oil and freon everywhere before it can even pull down the "low side" and get cold.

I have seen belt driven compressors for big refrigeration systems, and automotive applications, generally R22 freon is used for air-conditioning and 134a is used in auto systems, the oils are not compatable. R12 was easier to use but has been phased out. Also you must have A/C certification to buy anytype of freon. With the exception of 134a in an autoparts strore, and it cannot be expected to work in a R22 system, due to materials compatibity issues.

JW

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Fridge compressors are sealed so you don't lose refrigerant around a shaft seal.  Electric motors work just fine inside the housing and the refrigerant/lubricant lubes their bearings, too, so they last a long time.  Thus most modern consumer appliance coolers (refrigerators or air conditioners) use a sealed motor/compressor unit.  (If you have a shaft seal you'll be doing maintenance on it and replacing lost refrigerant after a decade or so.  If it's a sealed can it could last a century or more and your failure mode will probably be coil burnout or bearing failure.)

Big systems may use separate motors and compressors for ease of maintenance and repair (and probably also to avoid paying to pump away the motor's heat).

Engine-powered compressor-type refrigeration systems (i.e. on shipping containers and refrigerated truck trailers) necessarily use a separate compressor and engine.  They may be too big for your application.

Similarly, automobile air conditioning compressors may do the job - but they're designed with a many-horsepower engine in mind so they also might pull more power than you want to handle in an R.E. system.

There are some fine 12V sealed-compressor chest refrigerator-freezers available if you're just after a moderate sized refrigerated box you can run on an R.E. system.  If you want to run the compressor straight from a windmill you'll probably need a pretty big windmill.

What are you trying to do?

[dnix71]

Harold, home fridges in the US use the same freon/oil as your car - R143a. But cars have a separate dryer/filter. A home fridge compressor is shipped for assembly already sealed with oil, an inert gas or freon and some chemical to act as a dryer. There is no schrader valve, the ends of the inlet and outlet tubing are simply pinched shut and soldered. There is a fill tube also pinched and soldered. Replacement is snip-snip/braise-braise, then snip the fill, pull a vacuum and fill with a weighed amount of freon. Your car a/c isn't going to last as long because the shaft seals will leak, so it's okay to have a fill valve that allows adjusting the freon charge but directly measuring system pressure under load. Split system building a/c's have compressors like a home fridge, only the freon and oil are different.

A car with the engine off, cold on an 80F day will have a static a/c pressure of about 100psi. When cooling full blast under load the low side pressure should be between 25psi and 45psi. If the pressure won't drop below 45psi under load, either there is an obstruction or too much freon. The high side can be over 300 psi in really hot weather, maybe even close to 400psi.

Car a/c's must move large amounts of coolant to cool the vehicle. A sealed fridge only needs a few ounces of freon assuming you have decent door seals and keep the door closed except when you need food.

Like ULR said, what exactly are you trying to do? You could make a home brew fridge with a piston pump and ammonia if you are crazy enough to try. I wouldn't want to be around it when it leaked. And with an external shaft pump it will leak.

[Fused]

Newer refrigerators use R134a. If your going to braze the fittings shut you'll have no where to pull a vacuum from unless there is a schrader somewhere else on the system. That is when you will need to add the schrader to have a port to attach vacuum pump and to add refrigerant. Scaled of course to add only the proper amount.

Fused

[JW]

lol, I remember back when R12 was the "main" refrigerent, me and a coupla mechanic (confidon's) were sitting around, with so-and-so, and we were all smoking cigerettes, going AHHHH, did you get some of that phosgene gas on your last puff? [while so-and-so was venting R12 in our proximty...

The receiver/dryer is in place to capture H20, since most freons will react with it to form hydrochloric acid, which causes leaks over time.

Shortly after the remarks above we pulled the "tar tape" off the expansion valve an adjusted the set screw to make the freon at 40 degrees while the car was at idle, the problem was the condenser fan did not push enough air, the thermostat was not increasing fan speed on the condenser at times. This stuff can get pretty involved.
 : )
JW 

[Harold in CR]

 So, we can assume it will work, right ??

  OK, shaft seals. An Auto will run that compressor a whole lot more than a fridge. RIGHT ??
   So, shaft seals should last longer, and the Auto compressor runs in a very hostile environment, right ??
   So, the fridge will be easier on the compressor, right ??

 Down here, electricity is slowly going up in price. One of the illustrious past Presidents, had a Wind Farm put up, on top of one of the highest plateaus. I believe there are 7-8 machines.    He then passed a law that no one else can ever do the same thing, and sell electricity to the Monopoly company, ICE.

 Where I live, we have MANY instantaneous "Burps" in the power system, that HAS to create havoc on Electronics, FRIDGES, Water Chillers, etc. Sometimes, this happens several times in a matter of 1-2 minutes. Think someone pulling and closing a big knife switch, several times in that 1-2 minute time span.

 Also, there are several farmers that would LOVE to move out on their farms, but, there is no power, and, it would cost several thousand $$$ to put the lines and Transformers in. Some of these guys would like to put in a vacuum type milking machine, and then, need to cool the milk. Others have a water chiller, that resembles the old RC Cola water chiller boxes, where you opened the sliding door and plucked out a nice cool RC Cola, or whatever.

  IF these things could be run directly off home produced power, I would have a nice little business going. 1-2 guys have sufficient water to get steady power from Hydro. I need to figure how to maintain a near 60 HZ AC power system for them to run directly off the system, and charge a couple batteries as a dump load.

 The others might be able to run DC motors on compressors and vacuum pumps. Then, build a house and run it mostly on DC Voltage.

  Other than refrigeration, we are not talking that much load, normally.

 

[Fused]

Well, its not quite as simple as just pushing refrigerant through copper tubing. There will have to be a condenser coil to remove the heat and a evaporator coil to flash the refrigerant to provide cooling. This is straight AC only. Then there is the orifices at the evaporator and condenser that must be sized properly in order for it to do its job at all. All parts must be matched to fit the compressor size and efficiency. Miss matched parts can sometimes be used, but charging must be done with actual temperature readings to get it even close. Even then, it wont cool proper. Its really not something that can be just slapped together. Not trying to discourage you but there really is a science to it.

Hope it helps.

Fused

[Harold in CR]

 My other option is, trying to find sufficient info to build an Organic Rankin Cycle generator-cooler. THAT info is difficult to find.

  I really believe it has been "Squashed". 

[Tritium]

Harold,

Automotive systems will work just fine, but if you don't want to re-engineer a system you need to try to use a salvaged system in its entirety (all the components from the system that you remove it from) and accept the limitations that come with it as others have detailed. I have seen automotive (tractor in this case) air conditioning systems operate maintenance free for 10 year periods in some cases and have to have yearly maintenance in other cases. Excessive vibration is the biggest enemy in an automotive system.

Thurmond

[JW]

I really believe it has been "Squashed

I remember speaking with Jeff Sterling years ago, I seem to remember something going on with the website a while back but seems fine now.

http://matteranenergy.us/

http://www.sterlingsolar.com/

this next link works, but the page takes a while to load.

http://www.sterlingsolar.com/video1.html

JW

[wdyasq]

The information hasn't been 'squashed', canned or hidden. There are just a lot of parasitic losses on small Rankin Cycle systems. You end up using a lot of your energy just overcoming the inherent drags in the device.

I have several old belt driven small refrigeration compressors. They are in the 1/2 to 2hp range range and use R12, IIRC.  I also have, in a past and maybe future life built refrigeration units on boats using automotive A/C units, Yes, they can be made to freeze well and with proper design, you can run them only a few hours every few days and keep things frozen/cold.

One of the hard things in refrigeration is sizing the compressor, valves and heat exchange units where everything works efficiently. I think this becomes even more true as one begins to pay dearly for electricity (read that make it yourself). I think it will be difficult, if not practically impossible, to get more efficient than a modern 'high efficiency' new refrigerator or freezer.

See here for a 0.1kWh/day refrigerator:

http://mtbest.net/freezer-to-fridge-thermostat.html

Good luck,

Ron

[Fused]

Using a automotive system can work but you must also consider the air movement over the condenser mounted in front of the radiator fan. It will need a forced air movement over that same condenser coil. Then there is the automotive evap coil that will also need forced air to keep that coil from freezing up. By using all parts it can be done, leaving out a fan to force air over the coil will result in no cool air. A units line set can be lengthened to move Evap coil and cond coil farther apart without much problem, it just requires additional refrigerant to fill that extra line set. Pressures will stay the same as a shorter line set. It is super important to have the required air flow for both coils....... to produce cool air.

Fused  

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

I've been looking at thermoacoustics as a possible source of refrigeration and cooling.  Not quite as efficient as pumped freon but not too shabby.  Nothing moving but some gas inside some pluming that could be built by a good hot-rod tuned-exhaust-system artisan.  And the gas can be nitrogen, helium, dry air (compressed or not), propane, or darned near anything.

(I'm thinking a practical device might run using 100 PSI air as the working fluid, charged via a metal tire valvestem welded into the plumbing at a convenient place.  Much nicer in case of a leak than an ammonia absorption cooler, with its mix of ammonia, hydrogen, water, and chromate.  I still recall when I opened the 'fridge in the trailer after the system lost integrity and got a lungfull of ammonia.  B-b )

I've been carrying the textbook on the subject around in my briefcase for about a year now, waiting for enough time to study it.  I'm about 2/3 of the way through the initial skim, which will give you an idea of how short round TUITs are round here.  B-b

Did make a basic demonstration oscillator with about three feet of iron pipe, a piece of metal window screen, and a propane torch.  "HMMMMMMMmmmmmm......."

[Harold in CR]

 Good info, guys.

 Been busy trying to get the kitchen finished up for the local school. Need to go through those links y'all have posted. Thanks for those.

 Fused, From what I remember from the Servel refrigerator we had, there was no electric fans. The coils ran side to side, up the back of the fridge. There was a small pilot light that ran the whole system. That was for fridge only, and had an upper freezer unit that WOULD make ice. This was from the 50's, I believe.

 If the condensors were mounted flatways, maybe there would be enough natural convection to have the air rise naturally through the evaporator and condensor coils ??  Solar panels could run small fans, maybe ??

 ULR, WHAT textbook are you reading through ??  Maybe I could find a copy of it in a used book store ??  What you posted sounds like what I am looking for, maybe ??  PLEASE keep me updated on what you are thinking.

  I have been searching Organic Rankin Cycle, and, there are LARGE MEGA WATT systems, that are completely self sufficient. I would like to try to scale down something that would provide coolant and power. Something that could produce 1KW in 24 hours, or so.

 I believe there is enough knowledge on this forum, to actually figure out a way for this stuff to work.  Keep the thoughts coming. It doesn't matter if ideas sound crazy or not. Lets just use constructive ideas and criticism to keep things civil and moving forward.

  I think the world is going to need stuff like this.

  i DO know that Over Unity devices ARE being made and sold, in BIG sizes. I found one that is being Manufactured in Hungary. They produce 40% more than it takes to run the device. They are collecting magnetic forces that are SIMILAR to BEMF, but, are NOT BEMF, per se. Not enough info for me to figure out, but, I'm getting too many things in my head, so, need to concentrate on just 1.

  I can buy Propane Fridges, in the USA, but, import duties make the $1200.00 fridge actually $2000.00 to get it here. 

[Fused]

Hi Harold, I don't think Ive read what it is you are wanting to refrigerate. Ice chest, room in house, or even maybe a old auto?
If its only to revamp a refrigerator or to have a RE ice box then I would suggest just using a quality 12v freezer and running it off solar. Ghurd sets them up all the time.

On my reference to having to use forced air, it was on removing a auto ac to make it do the same cooling as it was made for, but on a different application. Ever notice when your stuck in traffic for a long time how your car ac vent temps just don't feel near as cool? Its due to that condenser coil mounted in front of the radiator and its not getting that forced air through it like when the car is moving. The radiator fan will pull some air over that coil to keep it working at minimum specs. The more air you force over that coil to remove the heat the better the rest of your AC system will work.

Although my license was universal to work on any form of cooling, I stuck to residential home cooling. Higher turn of profit with the least amount of specialty equipment needed. I don't think I can help you on designing a system. Its just out of my league.

On the "civil" part, Im just a grumpy ol basta**d who gets annoyed quickly with a know it all. And Ill be the last one to say I know it all or just how good I am. 

Ill be watching this as I can learn a lot my self by others experiences.

Fused

[DamonHD]

No, "OverUnity" never works, it's against the laws of thermodynamics and not happening in this universe.

Heat pumps, including refrigeration, can have a Coefficient of Performance (CoP) greater than 1, eg 10 units of heating or cooling for one unit of electricity in is high but not unheard of.  That is not the same thing at all.

Rgds

Damon

[Harold in CR]

 Fused, the Civil part was NOT directed at anyone, especially you. It just seems that when someone thinks a device can never work, instead of saying it with "Diplomacy" they just blurt it out. THAT is what I meant by, lets keep this topic civil. NO arguments, just good debate.

  I know what you mean by fans. I never get all my thoughts put into a response I type, and it causes folks to not know exactly what I was meaning.

  I was thinking, put a long funnel device around the Condensor or evaporator, and it will "draw" cool air up, causing the device to help with more air to cool with. I realise that Auto and house AC has to run longer, harder to do the job. A fridge or Water Chiller is what I am looking to cool down. The water chiller, is an insulated metal box with water in it, for cooling Soda Pop, milk, blocks of cheese, etc. Both items would not need to run a LONG time to cool. Using another water filled device, to cool off the condensor or evaporator, would take the heat off the water chiller device, so the first box of water would be chilled.

  Maybe you are not old enough to remember those water boxes with Soda Pop or Beer being cooled  EVERY General Store had one.

 I am hoping to use Solar to help provide fans, if needed. I just need this stuff to operate as efficiently as the system would allow, in REMOTE locations.

 Regarding the "over Unity", I knew it would cause a debate. Sorry to say it, Damon, but, there IS PROOF.  I don't think I bookmarked the page, BUT, I WILL find it and post it in another thread. Laws of Thermodynamics are going to need to be re-written.  

[TomW]

 Regarding the "over Unity", I knew it would cause a debate. Sorry to say it, Damon, but, there IS PROOF.  I don't think I bookmarked the page, BUT, I WILL find it and post it in another thread. Laws of Thermodynamics are going to need to be re-written.  

Harold;

Knock off with the overunity.

Unless you want the thread to go away. Proof or no proof.

It is NOT acceptable here. Period. End Quote.

No joke here.

Tomw

[Harold in CR]

 Started a new thread, Tom. 

[Volvo farmer]

 Started a new thread, Tom. 

Uh oh....

As much as I think that Tom is occasionally curmudgeonly and grouchy, he is spot-on with his last post and I am in full agreement with him.

The cool thing about overunity is that you are free to discuss it on hundreds of websites and forums all over the internet, you just aren't allowed to discuss it here.  So... I might suggest that you respect the wishes of the owners of this website, follow the rules that they have made, and take your overunity discussions elsewhere.  I also might suggest that you don't go disrespecting Tom, because I'm pretty sure he's not going to put up with it, and he also happens to own the keys to the jail. 

 

[Fused]

Herald you may want to Google Evaporative cooler.

Not sure it fits the needs but it may be adaptable.

Fused

[Harold in CR]

 Thanks Fused. I'll check it out.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Fused, From what I remember from the Servel refrigerator we had, there was no electric fans. The coils ran side to side, up the back of the fridge. There was a small pilot light that ran the whole system. That was for fridge only, and had an upper freezer unit that WOULD make ice. This was from the 50's, I believe.

Sounds like an absorption-cycle refrigerator.  They still use them for cooling with LP gas, mainly in off-grid houses and travel trailers.

They're a heat engine and a refrigerator in one.  The heat from the little flame boils ammonia out of a water solution in the "stove" section.  The ammonia gas is cooled in some of the plumbing and liquified at the top of the plumbing and then sucked into the freezer section, where it mixes with hydrogen.  The hydrogen and pressure drop cause it to boil, cooling the freezer to sub-zero F temperatures.  The cold gas and some liquid then goes to the refrigerator section where it finishes boiling and cools the fridge to somewhere between 32 and 40 degrees F.  Then the ammonia gas is absorbed by the water at the bottom of the plumbing (which is what made the vacuum that sucked the liquid through the capillary into the freezer heat-exchanger).

All the liquid and gas motion is driven by the heat and gravity, including convection in the freezer and refrigerator compartments.  (Keep 'em level, though, especially side-to-side.  There's a chromate compound in there to protect the plumbing from corrosion.  Let the "oven" go dry due to tilting and it cooks into hard flakes that eventually clog the narrow passages and kill the 'fridge.)  Regulation is by adjusting the size of the flame or turning it on and off to keep the 'fridge section at the right temp.

Gets cold nicely but doesn't pump a lot of heat.  So users must try to avoid opening the door unnecessarily (plan your access to do a bunch in one shot).  And they must also avoid putting a BUNCH of warm stuff in at a time to be cooled down.  (Don't put in more than about a 6-pack at a time, then wait an hour before the next one.)

Especially doesn't work too well on hot days because the "cold" side of the heat engine gets warm.  (Trailer supplies provide addons: a little 12V helper fan with a thermostat to improve the circulation on the heat-dump side to get it beyond the chimney effect of about 4 feet between the air intake and exhaust vent, and a similar always-on circulation fan to move air around in the fridge section to transfer heat better from the food to the fridge section heat exchanger.

Some of them also have electric heaters in the "oven" to run them when electricity is available (or while towing if you want the gas turned off).  But that takes about a factor of 6 times as much electricity for a given amount of refrigeration as a refrigerant/pump system.  Part of it is that the ammonia refrigeration is a bit less efficient.  But most of it is that you're throwing away the carnot cycle penalty by burning the electricity back to heat in a resistor, then running it through a heat engine again.  The electric mode is a convenience rather than an efficient way to run.

If the condensors were mounted flatways, maybe there would be enough natural convection to have the air rise naturally through the evaporator and condensor coils ??  Solar panels could run small fans, maybe ??

Or just put a stack on one side.  Once a little heat gets into the stack it will start to suck the hot air into itself.  (That's how those reactor cooling towers work:  Bunch of radiators/used chillwater fountains around the bottom.)

ULR, WHAT textbook are you reading through ??  Maybe I could find a copy of it in a used book store ??  What you posted sounds like what I am looking for, maybe ??  PLEASE keep me updated on what you are thinking.

_Thermoacoustics - A unifying perspective for some engines and refrigerators._  By G. W. Swift.  ISBN 0-7345-0065-2.  Published by The Acoustical Society of America.  Doubt you'll find it used in a student bookstore (unless maybe if you're in Salt Lake City).  I ordered mine directly from the society.

Got interested in this after an article on some grad student projects hit Slashdot.  Prof in Utah had his class doing miniature devices (like suitable for cooling a computer chip) with considerable power density.  (Shrinking the devices raises the frequency so they "cycle faster" and scale down well.)

Thermoacoustics is in its third wave of engineering development (after the patents from the first two waves expired) and this wave is producing some practical devices.  Like the two-story-tall bedroom-diameter device that eats waste natural gas at remote well sites, burning some of it and liquefying the rest, making it practical to ship and sell the gas instead of flaring it off.  Nothing moves but the gas (and maybe something inside a pressure or flame regulator on the incoming fuel).
 
I was interested in designing a solar-powered air conditioner and/or refrigerator using this tech.  But the round-TUIT shortage slowed me down.  (And just a week or two ago I discovered that my wife's objection to swamp coolers applied ONLY to the California, not the Nevada, place.  So the project is off even the back burner.)

[Harold in CR]

 Great info on the absorption cycle fridge system. It's exactly what I was talking about. The one I had, I took it in to the local Gas Co., to see if they could get it working. They said it was junk and wouldn't work.

 Got it home and my dad drove up. Told him about what I had, and he checked it out. In the gas passageway, there was a Spider Sac of sorts. It was blocking the gas, so, he got it out and we lit the thing. Worked well for 5 years, until I sold the place WITH the Servel.    It used very little propane, and the heat from the chimney tube would actually heat the kitchen just a tad.

 There must be a way to increase the cooling capacity of these things. I will have to do some searching, which I am very poor at, and see what I can find.

 Have you ever heard of Walter (Wally) Minto ??  He lived in Florida, and designed a system that would run cars and cool off his house and produce electricity.  This was in the 70's I believe. He had a deal with Nissan, to rig up cars with his device, and they helped him with Machining parts and such, if my limited info is correct. He was listed in several Popular mechanics type magazines. He died before the info got out, but, he was selling systems, built for your particular needs. I believe they ran around $6000.00, which was a lot with cheap fuel and electric rates, at that time.

  I'm still doing searches for more of his info.

 Thanks for the info on that book. I'm going to see if I can locate one.

[BigBreaker]

Butane and propane make a decent replacement for R12 or R134a.  Obviously they are flammable but if you pull a hard vacuum in your lines before charging them it is pretty safe.  You need O2 to go bang and the amount of coolant is really low.  European A/Cs use it in part because it is more ecological and more efficient.  Also they don't have Dow lobbying to set building codes and appliance regulations so that expensive synthetic refrigerants have to be used.