Author Topic: VAWT new proto-type (Read 252012 times)

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #132 on:** April 29, 2011, 10:54:05 PM »

I think Jack Nicholson said it best...

"Where does he get all these wonderful toys...?"

Looks good man... It's quite a contraption.

Steve

GoVertical · « **Reply #133 on:** May 05, 2011, 07:44:49 PM »

Greetings, I am reworking the 6 inch diameter stacked stators and rotors PMA. I found a 3 foot 5/8 shaft that fits my bearings and hubs. This will allow a second hub and spoke assembly to be added. This will make the blades easier to assemble to the PMA and more stable during operation. I added Â¾ x 1 inch magnets to all the rotors. I still have to cut the grooves for the connection wires and fabricate the new mast mount. Once standard size parts are established fabrication of more units will progress at a faster rate.

MaxtorD · « **Reply #134 on:** May 06, 2011, 02:35:02 PM »

This thing is turning in to a monster! The good kind.

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #135 on:** May 07, 2011, 08:31:27 AM »

No doubt - what he said.

Got any metrics on it yet?

Steve

GoVertical · « **Reply #136 on:** May 07, 2011, 12:24:21 PM »

Greetings, because the application is for a vertical turbine the design and fabrication of the mast mount and electrical connections have been very challenging. I have resolved all the issues. It will be a few days before I can bench test. Thanks for the interest and I will post results as soon as possible. Cheers

GoVertical · « **Reply #137 on:** May 08, 2011, 08:59:58 PM »

Greetings, the electrical connections molded into the stators are off by a few mills and are hitting the magnets. I have to re-cut the spacers. Unfortunately this will increase the air gap. The experience is a learn as you go process at this point. $:-\$

GoVertical · « **Reply #138 on:** May 09, 2011, 08:41:47 AM »

To solve the clearance problem I removed some raisin with a small roto tool. The roto tool cut into some of the coil on one stator. It still has continuity. I am continuing with assembly.

artv · « **Reply #139 on:** May 09, 2011, 11:30:00 AM »

Hi Govertical,...I'm still following this project.....very interesting!
I had a similar situation where my mag rotor ended up striking the stator and wearing right through to the windings.
I was wondering if the continuty test actually means the coil is still good, that is even if the turns were shorted, wouldn't that still show continuity? I'm a little confused about this ........nice rig keep the updates coming......artv

GoVertical · « **Reply #140 on:** May 09, 2011, 12:32:57 PM »

Greetings, the resistance is still the same as the other stators. The experience tell me to modify the stator molds before casting another stator. I want to try some epoxy raisin for the casting. Fiberglass generates a lot heat and smells really bad. I need to purchase some better measuring devices, measuring the stator spacers is very challenging. Hope to be testing in the near future. Cheers

GoVertical · « **Reply #141 on:** May 09, 2011, 05:07:08 PM »

Greetings, I completed the assemble. I attached a crank to the shaft and tried to illuminate a 12 volt light. I was able to light the bulb by human power. When I short the outputs together there is very little counter torque felt. There is defiantly a problem. This is the first time I tried this configuration. It may be a connection problem or a misalignment problem with the stators or my theory for this configuration is wrong. I should know more in a few days. Cheers

Bruce S · « **Reply #142 on:** May 09, 2011, 06:27:51 PM »

GoVertical
I'm thinking the ease of turning while shorted may be a connection problem more than the configuration.
Can you post the side and connection pics?
Let's have a look.
It sure does look very well made.
What wattage was he 12V light? simple LED style or CFL or traditional?
Bruce S

GoVertical · « **Reply #143 on:** May 09, 2011, 10:02:51 PM »

Greetings, I was reviewing some old posts on multiphase serpentine stators and I discovered I have connected the stators wrong.

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/alt_from_scratch.htm

I did not flip the connections on the middle stator.
I am doing the repairs and we will try it again.

I use a small auto tail light for a simple test, 12 volts and only a few watts.

Thank you the help and will post results as soon a possible. Thanks again and best regards.

GoVertical · « **Reply #144 on:** May 10, 2011, 04:06:34 PM »

Greetings, I completed swapping the connections on the middle stator. Results are the same as reported earlier. When shorting the leads together there is no counter torque experienced. This leads me to believe the problem is either with the stators or the stator placement. I am currently building a small dual rotor PMA to determine if the problem is with the stators. If the stators fabrication is correct then the problem is stator alignment. I should know more in a few days.

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #145 on:** May 10, 2011, 05:11:32 PM »

Not sure, but it almost looks like the coil got nicked in the one photo of the countersinking. I would think that up close and in hand that would be a little more obvious, and is probably just the way the camera caught the light in the picture.

But, if the coil had in fact been damaged... No question then as to the source of the issue.

Either way, it looks very good in general. Hopefully the problem is simple and the fix as easy.

Steve

Bruce S · « **Reply #146 on:** May 10, 2011, 05:46:58 PM »

GoVertical;
Can you dissemble and reassemble this using one stator at a time? see if you can narrow the problem child down to a stator? IF so then you can add each stator and recheck until the culprit is found.
Worth a try before setting out to build another stator. AND if my memory is working correctly you built this in stages, so if there is a malfunctioning stator then you can leave it out for now and run tests using the working stator(s).

Bruce S

RP · « **Reply #147 on:** May 10, 2011, 06:00:04 PM »

That may also identify a bad magnet platter pair

ghurd · « **Reply #148 on:** May 10, 2011, 06:43:13 PM »

I do not see how you have the stators connected to each other, but "I was reviewing some old posts on multiphase serpentine stators and I discovered I have connected the stators wrong. " leads me to believe you are confusing things that do not apply to non-overlapping coils

"I was able to light the bulb by human power. When I short the outputs together there is very little counter torque felt. There is defiantly a problem."

If the bulb lights, then the stators work.

I can not follow what the stator is at this time.
My guess is 80 turns per coil of 3 in hand #22. 240 turns per phase. 480 turns from one output wire to another if Star connected.
Sounds like the problem is too much coil resistance. And probably aggravated with an inefficient flux path.

GoVertical · « **Reply #149 on:** May 10, 2011, 09:59:43 PM »

Greetings, sorry for the typing error, I was unable to illuminate the light. Last fall I was able to configure a two stator with three rotors 3 phase and a single phase 3 stator with 4 rotors. They both worked. The stator coils were aligned vertically with no off set. The added coils resulted with a higher output at a lower RPM relating to the size of the magnets and coils being used.

I am now exploring a different configuration. It is a 3 stator with 4 rotors. Each stator has 8 coils wired in series. I am trying to relate the configuration to the multi phase serpentine stator configuration. Yes I maybe confused about the operating principals of the multi phase serpentine configuration. I was thinking that casting each phase in it own stator and then offset each stator in the vertical configuration would produce similar results. The difference is I am using coils instead of a serpentine configuration.

I am now trying to determine if my stators are wired correctly for single phase. If anyone has any ideas please let me know.

ghurd · « **Reply #150 on:** May 11, 2011, 12:23:29 PM »

Single phase, 8 series coils per stator, and 12 magnets per rotor?
G-

GoVertical · « **Reply #151 on:** May 11, 2011, 01:17:13 PM »

Greetings, after reviewing some 3 phase diagrams, each leg is 120 degree offset. When I assemble the PMA the stators may not be 120 degrees offset. Because of the fabrication method I am going to run the stator connection wires out side the case. This will allow me to rotate each stator to different positions to determine if problem can be resolved. I should know more in a few days. There are 8 magnets per rotor.

artv · « **Reply #152 on:** May 11, 2011, 04:15:42 PM »

Hi Govertical,...I'm starting to get a little confused here...on page 3 , reply 38 you show the mag rotor with eight magnets, and the stator with eight coils.
I thought in order to have three phase you have to use 4 magnets for every 3 coils, so 8 magnets means 6 coils??
Or was your intention to use 3 stators as single phase and orientate them so they are 120 degrees out of phase with each other, thereby making a 3 phase alternator?.........maybe I've missed something along the way.......artv

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #153 on:** May 11, 2011, 08:24:59 PM »

Quote from: ghurd on May 11, 2011, 12:23:29 PM

Single phase, 8 series coils per stator, and 12 magnets per rotor?
G-

Yep, that's a problem. I don't know about the 12 magnet thing, but 8 coils in series would bring the output to its knees, and what little IS there would have a squirrelly waveform for sure. :/

Hate to say it dude, but you may be looking at reworking your stators.

I'd get a second opinion before you do, but that's the way it sounds to me.

Steve

GoVertical · « **Reply #154 on:** May 11, 2011, 11:19:00 PM »

Greetings, years ago when I started experimenting with fabricating PMAs I made some stators, some 6 inch and some 8 inch. They were dual rotor PMAs and the 8 inch stators were cast as 3 phase, 9 coils and the 6 inch were cast as series with 8 coils. They worked but required a very high RPM to reach a charging voltage because of the small diameter and the magnet size. Then I found out by adding more coils and magnets you can reach a charging voltage at a lower RPM. Because larger diameter PVC fits are very expensive I tried stacking the rotors and stators reusing the parts from the earlier projects. The mistake I made is trying to do to many projects at the same time. It is confusing.

The current configuration is 4 rotors and three stators, 6 inch diameter. The stator coils are two in hand 22 AWG, 80 turns, cast in series. The rotors are 8 magnets, Â¾ diameter by 1 inch cylinders, N45. I am trying to configure a 3 phase by offsetting each series wired stator.

Today I was able to disassemble the current project. Some of the inner cylinder are a very tight fit and need to be turned down on a lathe to make reassembly easier. I still need to check each stator to make sure they are wired correctly. The photo shows the rotors and stator outside to case. I have to fabricate a test fixture for the large lathe so I can bench test over a greater ranch of RPMs. I should know more in a few days.

GoVertical · « **Reply #155 on:** May 13, 2011, 12:33:02 AM »

Greetings, I fabricated a small dual rotor to test each stator. I found one stator was a open circuit, no continuity. I am casting a new stator and we try again. I will know more in a few days. Cheers

GoVertical · « **Reply #156 on:** May 13, 2011, 02:48:40 PM »

Stator photo

GoVertical · « **Reply #157 on:** May 13, 2011, 02:50:02 PM »

willib · « **Reply #158 on:** May 13, 2011, 05:03:10 PM »

Hi GoVertical ,
Before you get too dissapointed by the output from the current configuration,There are some things you should know.
The single phase idea is not going to work. For one thing no matter how hard you try ya just cant get three stators with 8 coils ,120 degrees out of phase.

That said You have done some fine work here.

I really liked the tube cutter

william b

RP · « **Reply #159 on:** May 13, 2011, 05:24:40 PM »

Quote from: willib on May 13, 2011, 05:03:10 PM

The single phase idea is not going to work. For one thing no matter how hard you try ya just cant get three stators with 8 coils ,120 degrees out of phase.

I'm curious why not. He can rotate the stators to any position so he doesn't have to index on a certain coil position. I don't think it'll really matter if they're actually at 115Â° or 123Â° and his accuracy should be able to be as good as any 4/3 single layer coil stator.

GoVertical · « **Reply #160 on:** May 13, 2011, 07:50:30 PM »

Greetings, I really do not know if it will work. I was looking at a multi-phase serpentine stator, all the phases were cast in one stator. My thought was to cast each phase in its own stator, then use the vertical configuration and offset each stator to achieve the different phased outputs. I have away to fabricate the PMA, I just need the magic combination of coils, wire size, and magnets to achieve the high output at the lowest RPM from the diameter I am using. I do not live in a high wind area and would rather have a bunch of small low cost genies' outputing some amps must of the time then a big expensive mill that just sits there producing nothing must time. That is the goal or the plan. The biggest problem is the small diameter. The dual rotors I made in the past required very high RPM's to work. By using the vertically configuration the working RPM range has become much lower and may work with my blade configuration because of the added coils. If not I can add a gear box or belt drive. I should know more in few days. Cheers.

willib · « **Reply #161 on:** May 13, 2011, 10:55:27 PM »

Quote from: RP on May 13, 2011, 05:24:40 PM

Quote from: willib on May 13, 2011, 05:03:10 PM
The single phase idea is not going to work. For one thing no matter how hard you try ya just cant get three stators with 8 coils ,120 degrees out of phase.

I'm curious why not. He can rotate the stators to any position so he doesn't have to index on a certain coil position. I don't think it'll really matter if they're actually at 115Â° or 123Â° and his accuracy should be able to be as good as any 4/3 single layer coil stator.

The problem is 360/8=45 degrees
So the distance between any two coils of all three stators is 45 degrees.
If you turned the second stator 45 degrees from the first you are back where you started.

I would go with three phase for all three, line them all up and that will be that.

GoVerticle i have two drawings for you to look at.

These are true single phase, notice how the first one is making no power.
and the second one is rotated counter clockwise and is at a maximum.
There are 10 poles and five coils. All equally spaced.
BUT look at all the wasted material , The coils are three TIMES the diameter of the magnets !
The wasted space between the coils can be better used with three phase ,and the coil diameter only needs to be twice the magnet diameter.

GoVertical · « **Reply #162 on:** May 13, 2011, 11:50:31 PM »

Greetings, I quickly connected all the stators in series and at 60 RPMs; + or - 10; I was able to illuminate a 12 volt DC 13.5 W light bulb to a very dim glow. It is very difficult to count, look at your watch and take a picture at the same time. It is a start and another PMA to test. I still have to fabricate a bench test fixture. I can now start fabricating the blade assembly. I have not tried to offset the stator, I will try that in the morning. When the outputs are shorted there is a brake affect but not very strong. Stators need to be improved and decrease the air gap. Cheers.

GoVertical · « **Reply #163 on:** May 14, 2011, 12:39:04 AM »

Quote from: willib on May 13, 2011, 10:55:27 PM

Quote from: RP on May 13, 2011, 05:24:40 PM
Quote from: willib on May 13, 2011, 05:03:10 PM
The single phase idea is not going to work. For one thing no matter how hard you try ya just cant get three stators with 8 coils ,120 degrees out of phase.

I'm curious why not. He can rotate the stators to any position so he doesn't have to index on a certain coil position. I don't think it'll really matter if they're actually at 115Â° or 123Â° and his accuracy should be able to be as good as any 4/3 single layer coil stator.
The problem is 360/8=45 degrees
So the distance between any two coils of all three stators is 45 degrees.
If you turned the second stator 45 degrees from the first you are back where you started.

I would go with three phase for all three, line them all up and that will be that.

GoVerticle i have two drawings for you to look at.

These are true single phase, notice how the first one is making no power.
and the second one is rotated counter clockwise and is at a maximum.
There are 10 poles and five coils. All equally spaced.
BUT look at all the wasted material , The coils are three TIMES the diameter of the magnets !
The wasted space between the coils can be better used with three phase ,and the coil diameter only needs to be twice the magnet diameter.

Greeting,After what I experienced today and the perform of the dual stator 3 phase I made earlier, I am considering the 3 phase multi stator may be the best approach. Thanks for the suggestion. I could make the stators with 6 coils and reuse the 8 mag rotors. My other thought is a 6 inch diameter may just be to small. Lots of stuff to consider, Thanks again. Cheers.

RP · « **Reply #164 on:** May 14, 2011, 12:50:44 AM »

Quote from: willib on May 13, 2011, 10:55:27 PM

The problem is 360/8=45 degrees
So the distance between any two coils of all three stators is 45 degrees.
If you turned the second stator 45 degrees from the first you are back where you started.

His stators are round. He doesn't have to rotate them 45Â°. He can shift them by any amount.

In this case if the stators are each shifted by 1/3 of the pitch between coils (45Â°/3=15Â°) then you get three phase (1 per stator).

News:

Author Topic: VAWT new proto-type (Read 252012 times)