Author Topic: VAWT new proto-type (Read 252079 times)

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #363 on:** September 11, 2011, 12:04:37 AM »

Can you cut synchromesh rather than spur for the teeth? Would help with the noise...

Just a thought. Belt and pulley might have much more friction than you're expecting, depending on how it is implemented. Then there's slipping, compounded by wet weather...

Steve

DamonHD · « **Reply #364 on:** September 11, 2011, 05:33:18 AM »

I envy your mechanical skills and I salute your dogged collection of actual numbers and continued tweaking. Are you some distant relative of Edison's? B^>

Rgds

Damon

GoVertical · « **Reply #365 on:** September 11, 2011, 07:07:40 PM »

Hi, I traced most of the noise to the bearings. There is a small amount or play when the bearing is on the center vertical shaft and when I turn the gear box manually there is bearing chatter. I order the belts and should know more in a week. Having the ability to cut the gears is not a compete waste because they are suitable for low speed robotic applications. I did experiment with different gear tooth contact angles but because the noise is from bearing chatter on the center shaft it really made little difference. I am planning to road test the noisy gear box just to gather more numbers. I will post result when available. Thank you for all the help I have been receiving. Enjoy the day.

GoVertical · « **Reply #366 on:** September 11, 2011, 08:32:02 PM »

http://www.mcmaster.com/#6484k111/=e0sv1a

http://www.mcmaster.com/#6484k111/=e0sv1a

Hi, this is the belt I am considering to replace the gears with. I should be able to cut the pulleys myself. Comments welcome.

TrackerJack · « **Reply #367 on:** September 12, 2011, 12:38:51 AM »

Great website for belts. I was needing a endless V belt 384 in. long for new tracker.

A,B, and C section

http://www.mcmaster.com/#endless-v-belts/=e1g2bo

GoVertical · « **Reply #368 on:** September 16, 2011, 12:10:41 PM »

Project update:

I am able to fabricate the cogged pulleys that are required. Adding idler pulleys will be challenging. I have to order larger diameter timing belts so the pulleys can be a larger diameter to allow better bolt hole placement. Comments welcomes.

12AX7 · « **Reply #369 on:** September 16, 2011, 12:55:20 PM »

Quote from: GoVertical on September 16, 2011, 12:10:41 PM

Project update:

I am able to fabricate the cogged pulleys that are required. Adding idler pulleys will be challenging. I have to order larger diameter timing belts so the pulleys can be a larger diameter to allow better bolt hole placement. Comments welcomes.
(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Looking good....(like always)

The idler pulley, is it's sole purpose to adjust belt tension? If so, why not run a pulley on the outside of the belt?

artv · « **Reply #370 on:** September 16, 2011, 05:56:46 PM »

Hi GoV,....I don't understand why you would even put the belt in there??.....since the gears are meshed together....
Won't the belt just cause more friction??,....meaning more torque required??(stealing from the rotors)
I'm sure there is a reason, but just not aware of it.......keep up the great work........artv

GoVertical · « **Reply #371 on:** September 16, 2011, 10:18:39 PM »

Quote from: artv on September 16, 2011, 05:56:46 PM

Hi GoV,....I don't understand why you would even put the belt in there??.....since the gears are meshed together....
Won't the belt just cause more friction??,....meaning more torque required??(stealing from the rotors)
I'm sure there is a reason, but just not aware of it.......keep up the great work........artv

Hi, the gears make a lot of noise. The blades act as a amplifying resonator, at high speeds the it sounds like at coffee grinder. The gears just make to much noise to be useful.

GoVertical · « **Reply #372 on:** September 16, 2011, 10:43:57 PM »

Quote from: 12AX7 on September 16, 2011, 12:55:20 PM

Quote from: GoVertical on September 16, 2011, 12:10:41 PM
Project update:

I am able to fabricate the cogged pulleys that are required. Adding idler pulleys will be challenging. I have to order larger diameter timing belts so the pulleys can be a larger diameter to allow better bolt hole placement. Comments welcomes.
(Attachment Link)

(Attachment Link)

Looking good....(like always)

The idler pulley, is it's sole purpose to adjust belt tension? If so, why not run a pulley on the outside of the belt?

Hi, there is going to be four belts. Using 4 idler pulleys may have to be used. I am searching for possible alternates. I am thinking about spring and bolt design that would pull one shaft away from the other and tighten all the belts at the same time. One shaft could be mounted on a cam pivot and tightening a bolt would pull a spring causing the cam to keep tension on the belts. There is a lot to consider. Comments welcome.

Volvo farmer · « **Reply #373 on:** September 17, 2011, 07:48:34 AM »

Rube Goldberg would be proud. I can't wait to see this thing with 4 belts on it! Carry on

GoVertical · « **Reply #374 on:** September 18, 2011, 12:23:30 PM »

Greetings, just some photos of torsion spring yoke assembly. I still have to cut slide holes in the mounting plates. Enjoy the day.

Tritium · « **Reply #375 on:** September 18, 2011, 11:57:33 PM »

Quote from: Volvo farmer on September 17, 2011, 07:48:34 AM

Rube Goldberg would be proud. I can't wait to see this thing with 4 belts on it! Carry on

+1

Thurmond

GoVertical · « **Reply #376 on:** September 22, 2011, 03:21:35 PM »

Greetings, I still have to add spring shaft adjustment to tighten all the belts at the same time. I made the belt pulleys double the width to allow for easier belt to pulley alignment, this will also allow the belts to self track. Fabrication of the first one is going slow but so far the results appears to indicate that it will work. Enjoy the day.

Tritium · « **Reply #377 on:** September 23, 2011, 11:24:09 AM »

One of my favorite sayings from Montgomery Scott (Scottie, Star Trek) "The more they overthink the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

Friction will become your enemy and maintenance nightmare.

For every belt / pulley / gear added a corresponding increase in swept area will be required to maintain the same power to the alternator.

Thurmond

artv · « **Reply #378 on:** September 23, 2011, 05:35:26 PM »

Hi GoV,...I just don't see how that gear set-up is going to give any increase in performance??
A big gear linked to a small will increase , but will require more torque,...
I'm trying to picture how this arrangement works ,but seems the big to small , will just cancel , the small to big....??
Plus all the added friction??.........sorry if thats not clear,...I'm just a carpenter , not the sharpest knife in the drawer......artv

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #379 on:** September 24, 2011, 12:26:08 AM »

Gotta tend to agree with Thurmond on this one...

While this is all MORE than entertaining to watch unfold, and with particularly impressive speed in terms of the metamorphosis of the project as a whole, I too think that you may be off on quite the tangent here by overthinking the problem.

This many gears, belts, what have you, are going to lead to astronomical losses from wind to genny that just won't be practical to try and make up.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm one of those people who will do something (or at least fail miserably in trying) just to prove (or try to prove) someone wrong when they tell me it can't be done. Hopefully, this doesn't turn into one of those scenarios...

I won't sit here and say that this won't (or more accurately can't) work, but will say that its probably just not practical to use such radical methods to increase alternator speeds.

What comes to mind for me is that there's a reason the typical HAWT design on here doesn't involve a transmission of any kind - efficiency. With maintenance being a strong second. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen; Chris Olson has at least one successful geared machine in the air (just off the top of my head)...

I think for your situation though, you'd be better off using angular velocity directly (pronounced "bigger diameter alternator") and then you would have all the gains of the magnets passing the coils faster, with none of the losses associated with transmissions. You can get away with this where the HAWT crowd can't, because VAWT designs need not be as concerned about large alternator disks shrouding the turbines from the wind. There may be other considerations, but blocking the blades is not one of them.

Of course, a larger diameter genny would probably cost more (more magnets, etc), but something tells me that money isn't really one of the more important considerations in all of this... Look at all those toys!

Just a thought, take it or leave it. Either way, keep us informed. One way or another, regardless of the ultimate outcome, this is good stuff, and I'm sure there is something in these 20 some odd pages for just about anyone who stumbles across this!

Steve

GoVertical · « **Reply #380 on:** September 24, 2011, 08:49:13 PM »

Greetings, project update:
Timing belts and pulleys are installed on a test rig. Because the pulleys are made using two pieces I was able to bevel each piece toward the center of the pulley. This forces the belts to track toward the center of the pulley so a lip is not required. I have to find the correct tool to bend the spring into the correct shape. This a first attempt but it appears to be working. The spring pulls on the top and bottom of the movable shaft and all belts have tension. Again this is a experiment and a learning experience, I do not know how long the belts will last. The next step is to mount it on the PMA and perform a road test. The current configuration is a 1 : 6 ratio.

thirteen · « **Reply #381 on:** September 25, 2011, 10:40:30 AM »

There was an article in the news yesterday on new industrial turbines, but I did not have time to study it better. They were mounted on a pole and and had a corkscrew type blades on them. They were making them to try and narrow them up so there would not be the large blades turning disturbing wild life and these will take up allot less space. I tried to find it today and my thumbs couldn't work right. Something to look for. I thought I would pass it along.

GoVertical · « **Reply #382 on:** September 29, 2011, 08:38:19 PM »

Hi, I completed the installation of the 1:6 synchronous belt drive transmission on the PMA. Road test when weather permits. Enjoy the day.

TrackerJack · « **Reply #383 on:** September 30, 2011, 12:21:43 AM »

Me thinks its a thing of beauty. When you test, please utube. Im just as interested in the sound it makes as I am in its movements.

GoVertical · « **Reply #384 on:** September 30, 2011, 12:46:25 PM »

Greetings, the 3/8 timing belt is just to small for the intended application. Even under tension the belts would skip the pulleys at higher RPM's. I was able to find larger tooth V belts at the local auto parts store. They are a larger diameter with larger teeth. This should resolve the problem. I have to fabricate new pulley. Enjoy the day.

Volvo farmer · « **Reply #385 on:** September 30, 2011, 02:41:48 PM »

Uhhh, Those ain't teeth. Them are notches.

DanG · « **Reply #386 on:** September 30, 2011, 02:58:38 PM »

Yes, notches to allow it to guide through tight diameter pullies...

For power transmission they make a belt similar to the last one pictured that has three, five nearly full-sized ribs 'banded' together. Probably impossible to find in lengths less than a metre though. Goodyear has a 'wedge' combination belt, V-sides with true teeth "3VX250 HY-T"..

Have you considered O-Ring drive belts? IIRC, Unimat lathes and some drill presses use them... You can double up the loop on drive shafts for positive transfer, etc. I have some 1/2" belt Fenner drive idler pullies I've always meant to experiment with but haven't found the time.

http://www.fennerdrives.com/eagle_polyurethane/eagle_home.asp

GoVertical · « **Reply #387 on:** October 01, 2011, 08:45:19 AM »

Greetings, thanks for the correction. The belts are very flexible and I am able to fabricate a notched pulley that should prevent the belt from slipping. The new pulleys will have a lip that will keep the belt on the pulley. Thanks for all the help I am receiving, enjoy the day.

GoVertical · « **Reply #388 on:** October 02, 2011, 02:54:23 PM »

Greetings, milling notched pulleys. It will be interesting to see how long the belts will last. Fabricating pulleys using two pieces, each side will have a lip to contain belts. Current ratio is 1: 7. Enjoy the day.

TomW · « **Reply #389 on:** October 02, 2011, 03:38:26 PM »

I am no Engine Ear and do not play one anywhere.

However.

I think you are setting yourself up to fail with this notched pulley path.

V belts are meant to grip the sides of the V shaped pulley with the side of the belt.

The way you are doing it is using the wrong surface for grip and I suspect it will eat both the belt and the pulley up in little to no time.

Or not.

Nice work on the parts.

I just had to say something as it just seems so wrong and others did not point it out loudly that I noticed.

Take it or leave it.

Tom

12AX7 · « **Reply #390 on:** October 02, 2011, 04:49:46 PM »

Tom

I understand that a standard V belt's gripping surface are it's sides, and as the belt wears it shifts deeper into the V of the drive/driven pulleys, maintaining surface to surface grip/contact.

If I understand your comment correctly, you're saying that this is also true of cogged/tooth/timing belts? I know that there are both "flat" and "V" or tapered belts but I was under the impression that all styles of these belts used the coggs to drive and maintain "position" between the drive and driven pulley/s
I would have to agree that a drive belt that has contact with both the cogs and sides of a pulley would/should have extended life, but as long as the belt isn't slipping/jumping the cogs I wouldn't expect a "premature" belt/pulley wear.

But like you, I'm no "end gen ear"

ax7

By the way... those are some pretty pulleys!

Bruce S · « **Reply #391 on:** October 03, 2011, 09:40:20 AM »

TomW and Ax7 I used to an engineerer of the mechanics kind

even got a sheepy skin to prove it

Only took 20years to finish; life kinda got in the way.

Anywho

the pulleys use the sides of the pulley as grip , the cogged and toothed belts use the teeth, there's even a whole bunch of math to figure how much, but that's not for here and I'd have to get out the books. The V-belts are indeed made to work themselves towards the inside as the wear down, that mainly why there was large adjustment available on older alternators and such, the cogged belts and idler rollers help to eliminate this need.
GoVertical:
The pulleys your making will work, EXCEPT for the fact that in short order the tips of those teeth will be rounded over causing slippage then total rounded over gears.
Would be better to round them over now and allow for a little bit of slippage. For these; torque is not gonna be nice to you at all
Your making of pulleys and gears is TOO good you're not allowing enough slippage in the real-world usage. In time pieces these would be a work of art.
For "mills" they as you have seen in the near past get out of whack quickly.
I do have to say: these gears you're making are truly great units.

GoVertical · « **Reply #392 on:** October 03, 2011, 05:05:11 PM »

Greetings, thanks for the recommendations. I completed one pulley, three more to go. From the data recorded from the earlier road tests the max RPM is about 150. A transmission is definitely needed. If the belts fail than I can always buy better belts. The auto belts are low cost and available. The transmission is the last piece of the puzzle. Enjoy the day.

GoVertical · « **Reply #393 on:** October 04, 2011, 10:31:19 AM »

Greetings, I completed the pulleys. Working on PMA mount. If at some point it start generating electricity is it still considered art?

Enjoy the day.

Bruce S · « **Reply #394 on:** October 04, 2011, 11:04:54 AM »

ART is ART
I have to ask, because I'm not sure what I'm seeing.
The two belts are they hooked to the two shafts at the same time? of is one of them connect via a shaft within a shaft.
IF it's dual pulleys via belts, then these two are going to cancel each other out.
This could be a problem.
Let me know if I'm just not seeing the deeper details.
Thanks
Bruce S

thirteen · « **Reply #395 on:** October 04, 2011, 12:05:46 PM »

Those types of v-belts normally are not used that way but if it works. Keeping the proper tension on the belts to me will be the biggest problem for new belts do stretch some with use. I am not sure of the tension adjustments needed in this application for the best pull from the belts. Looks good to me for what you are doing.

News:

Author Topic: VAWT new proto-type (Read 252079 times)