Author Topic: Ni-Mn Battery  (Read 7486 times)

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CraigCarmichael

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Ni-Mn Battery
« on: July 26, 2010, 12:40:40 PM »
Hi,

Some early info - or an update on a post of 2008:

I've been working 2-1/2 years on finding a new battery chemistry and new ways to make batteries, and I've come up with nickel-manganese in potassium chloride electrolyte. This will make almost 2 volt quite alkaline cells.



No one has been able to use manganese as a negative before. The voltage is a little too high and it bubbles hydrogen instead of charging. But I found that it was discovered in 1964 that egg albumin raises the hydrogen overvoltage considerably, and it's enough that manganese will charge. (Mn(OH)2 + 2e-  <==>  Mn + 2OH- [-1.56 volts]). Even a little smear of egg white in the electrode mix is enough. This is too good to patent, so here it is, free technology for all.

And some research from India in 2004 has come to light for making sealed nickel-iron cells, with a catalyst to recombine gasses into water and keep the pressure low, allowing quite large sealed cells. Manganese is the element just to the left of iron, and it seems everything should be almost identical in this usage, but with the higher voltage. Thus the paper seems just as applicable to Ni-Mn. It seems from the cycle graph to have an unlimited life, in a sealed, maintenance-free battery.

Some detail in various issues of Turquoise Energy News.

--Craig

isoutar

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2010, 01:26:01 PM »
Excellent research Craig.

This type of battery may have the lifespan of Nickel Iron but have lower internal resistance.   It should have the kind of lifespan that nickel iron batteries have.because the chemistry is analogous.   The electrolyte is simply salt ... refreshingly safe.

When might we see commercialization (so we can buy them and try them)?   

Ian Soutar

CraigCarmichael

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2010, 04:20:46 PM »
Thanks!

I believe manganese hydroxide has lower resistance than iron hydroxide, though I could be wrong. Internal resistance per square cm of interface also depends on electrolyte, and I think KCl is better than KOH as well as safe to handle, and on construction - electrode thickness, electrode separation distance, and compaction for example - and conductivity additives.

Commercial production really isn't in my plans, but if I ever do get that far, you won't read about it here in "storage" because any posts I make about it then will be treated as advertising and will get moved to the "classifieds" section.

Craig

Bruce S

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2010, 04:41:47 PM »
Thanks!

I believe manganese hydroxide has lower resistance than iron hydroxide, though I could be wrong. Internal resistance per square cm of interface also depends on electrolyte, and I think KCl is better than KOH as well as safe to handle, and on construction - electrode thickness, electrode separation distance, and compaction for example - and conductivity additives.

Commercial production really isn't in my plans, but if I ever do get that far, you won't read about it here in "storage" because any posts I make about it then will be treated as advertising and will get moved to the "classifieds" section.

Craig

Craig;
I'm pretty sure if you update this thread with the how's and where's. The posts will not be moved, unless you're asking for $$$ or "donations" or investors  ;).
Of the posts you have made that I've read, I don't think they look like you're pimping your website or anything like that. Of course I could be wrong or over ruled.

Just my opinion
Bruce S
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2010, 08:04:26 PM »
Degradation of the egg albumin might be another failure mode, affecting lifetime.

(But even if that turns out to be a problem there are LOTS of other things to try, now that there's a proof-of-concept that the problem can be licked by a simple coating.)

CraigCarmichael

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2010, 03:41:27 AM »
Ungrounded: Degradation of the albumin is a possibility - good point. I heated the finished electrode to 110c in the oven a while so it would be well stuck on cooked egg white instead of raw. I hope that will make it permanent, but it may take considerable time to tell if performance starts to degrade, and if so, then to ascertain if the egg white is the culprit. (Probably the first suspect, though!) But as you say, egg white isn't the only source of organic amines or albumin.

---

Bruce, as to being moved to "classifieds", my priceless little piece on treating new or renewing supposedly "worn out" lead-acid batteries with sodium sulfate so they will last 3-4 times as long or resume working well was. I just wanted, and still want, to spread the word because I think it's exciting and of great value to people everywhere - especially for alternate power storage - and to provide the best instructions I could, the fruit of some months of research.

How will people hear about it? The battery companies sure ain't talking - instead they've started gluing the caps on. Whatever they may say, that's to keep people from adding the salt! I don't care where anybody gets theirs. I had to buy a 30 Kg container over the web to get some. I still have 20, but locally a number of car and RV batteries otherwise destined for destruction have been returned to productive service.

I wouldn't expect better luck telling people here (storage) if new chemistry Ni-Mn batteries had become available, since I obviously couldn't give them away for free.

Craig

bob golding

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2010, 08:19:38 AM »
hi Craig sounds very interesting. can we have more details of the construction method please. new battery technology is interesting stuff isn't it. i spend about 2 years trying to work out if  it would be possible to make vanadium redox cells as a homebrew project. i worked out it would be possible but certainly not economical due to the cost of the nafion membrane. i see the person  who discovered the method has found a way to  make the membrane for 50 aus dollars a square meter rather 2500 dollars, taken 3 years of soaking  stuff in tanks for a long time  but seems to have got there at last. the big problem as i see it is reliability, lead acid has been around a long time and is easily recycled so why change? it needs a big bucks application to push development. nickel metal hydride was developed to fill a need. cant remember the details, only that it was the same person who started uni-solar the solar panel maker.
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

Bruce S

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2010, 09:22:46 AM »
Ungrounded: Degradation of the albumin is a possibility - good point. I heated the finished electrode to 110c in the oven a while so it would be well stuck on cooked egg white instead of raw. I hope that will make it permanent, but it may take considerable time to tell if performance starts to degrade, and if so, then to ascertain if the egg white is the culprit. (Probably the first suspect, though!) But as you say, egg white isn't the only source of organic amines or albumin.

---

Bruce, as to being moved to "classifieds", my priceless little piece on treating new or renewing supposedly "worn out" lead-acid batteries with sodium sulfate so they will last 3-4 times as long or resume working well was. I just wanted, and still want, to spread the word because I think it's exciting and of great value to people everywhere - especially for alternate power storage - and to provide the best instructions I could, the fruit of some months of research.

How will people hear about it? The battery companies sure ain't talking - instead they've started gluing the caps on. Whatever they may say, that's to keep people from adding the salt! I don't care where anybody gets theirs. I had to buy a 30 Kg container over the web to get some. I still have 20, but locally a number of car and RV batteries otherwise destined for destruction have been returned to productive service.

I wouldn't expect better luck telling people here (storage) if new chemistry Ni-Mn batteries had become available, since I obviously couldn't give them away for free.

Craig

Craig;
 I'm pretty certain, still, that no one reading these would push updates of what you are posting to the classified section now.
Reason being is with the new software posts can be split by mods if the posts look like they're a sales pitch. The new board is now easier and has more selections of what get moved, split or ...?? than they were in the past.
Also there are now several levels of MODS helping; not just overworked  Kurt, Wooferhound & TomW and Dans, who had to watch the entire board along with trying to keep out OUs and other nonsense.

I am also pretty sure no one expects you to give away what you've spent real money on, The Salts included.
You're writing and continued updates to this battery stuff is very interesting to more than one and currently very well done.
You seem to try and keep the information into the world of real on the ground data, not just theory.
I would ask that you continue to update this post with as much information as you wish to. If there's a need to someone to purchase "supplies"
They can certainly ask how much and where, or you could offer to assist with the "kits" so to speak.

Of course "kits" would then need to be over in the classifieds, but that's okay that is where those need to be posted.
Others including Ghurd and myself have posted items or kits.
Keep up the great work...

Thanks;
Bruce S

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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2010, 04:13:04 PM »
Ungrounded: Degradation of the albumin is a possibility - good point. I heated the finished electrode to 110c in the oven a while so it would be well stuck on cooked egg white instead of raw. I hope that will make it permanent, but it may take considerable time to tell if performance starts to degrade, and if so, then to ascertain if the egg white is the culprit. (Probably the first suspect, though!)

Cooked-on egg white is so hard to wash off it might be close to perpetual.  B-)

Quote
But as you say, egg white isn't the only source of organic amines or albumin.

Also:  Organic amines or albumin might not be the only "magic bullet" that can do the job.

CraigCarmichael

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2010, 08:17:01 PM »
Hi, I've been away a few days... Thanks all for comments.

Amines and especially albumin were specifically what the article said raised the hydrogen overvoltage (the voltage at which hydrogen starts to bubble off). I'm going on the assumption until proven otherwise that the cooked egg white will be as you say "perpetual".

What I know so far about battery making is in my monthly Turquoise Energy News newsletters, on line. Over the months some earlier silly ideas give way to more recent better ones as I learned. I've started writing a little "how to" book, but I want to try out a few more things myself, like the catalytic gas recombiner to keep pressures low for doing big sealed cells (O2 + 2 H2 ==> 2 H2O) that can take overcharging, and stacked bipolar electrodes for higher voltages in one cell enclosure. And I'm experimenting with binders - 'glues' to hold the electrodes together - and other electrode materials.

One big key is my "bolt-box electrode compactor". (I'm currently recommending at least a 3/4" x 4" steel bottom plate for 3" wide electrodes. Just found today that even 1/2" bulges.) You need to compact the powder electrode ingredients into something more like a thin porous piece of conductive sandstone. Once I finally realized that's what needed to be done, I puzzled for a long time how to get enough pressure.

An even thickness matte watercolor paper (eg, Arches 90#) seems to make a very good separator sheet. Cellophane is a good microporous membrane IF it isn't plasticized. (If you can suck on it and Very gradually feel a bit of cool air coming in. Eg, Pacon Creative Products cellophane is good.) Both cheaper than Nafion.

Craig

bob golding

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #10 on: August 06, 2010, 10:25:23 AM »
hi craig, just had a quick look at your newsletter for june. i have a 1 sq metre sheet of graphite mat i got for my  battery project. i bit the bullet and brought 8 420 amp hour rolls surrette 6 volt cells so i am ok for batteries for the foreseeable future. if you think you might find it useful email me and i will send you  some.
if i cant fix it i can fix it so it cant be fixed.

keithturtle

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2012, 10:46:03 PM »
Here's a bump for this thread;  is there really something new under the sun?

Hi-current, hi temp molten metal battery

http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy.html

Magnesium, salt and antimony sandwich heated to the melting point.   Now that is thinking outside the battery box, I would think

http://lmbcorporation.com/

IDK; I doubt I'll be building one any time soon

Turtle, slow

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CraigCarmichael

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2012, 03:24:48 PM »
Those hot molten batteries might be good for large, stationary situations. If you get enough size, the surface area radiating heat becomes small for the volume of battery, keeping the losses to keep it hot low.

On the original topic... It took me quite a while to get the Ni-Mn chemistry going. In addition to my new chemistries, there are hidden details and there has never been an instructional book (until my recent and still preliminary efforts) to teach details of how to make batteries to the uninitiated.

I gave up on sealed "dry" cells (for now) and went for flooded, vented cells.

Some other key points:

* At pH 7 with salt electrolyte, as I was trying to do (KCl, eg from compounding pharmacies), Pourbaix diagrams show that many substances become soluble, which is bad for longevity of electrodes. pH 14 (totally alkaline) is better, but not ideal. Ideal for most substances is perhaps pH 10 or 11 to 13. You can get pH 12.3 with the neutral KCl salt and some calcium hydroxide. Calcium hydroxide is only slightly soluble, so it doesn't raise the pH to 14, only to 12. You can add enough to have an undissolved reserve of it. Lower pHes than 14 give higher voltages from the same chemicals, and they're much safer to handle.

* All common metals oxidize away rapidly in the positive electrode. (Nickel alone works, at pH 14 only.) That's the nowhere stated reason why carbon rods are used in standard dry cells instead of wires. After 2 or 3 years I figured this out and I created "Grafpoxy", 50:50 wt% graphite powder (eg, art supply stores) and epoxy to make a conductive epoxy, which can be made into various forms/shapes. I'm still experimenting with these.

* With the high voltage of manganese in the negative electrode (-1.56 volts at pH 14 going to -1.18 at lower pHes), most metals won't work as current collectors - they bubble hydrogen even if the electrode chemicals don't. The things that work for NiFe, NiCd, and NiMH don't work for NiMn. Only zinc works. This also took me a couple of years to figure out. "Zincate solution" (eg, from Caswell Plating) seems to be a good way to plate zinc onto aluminum. This has given me the best results to date. I'm still experimenting.

* The Mn negative chemical will bubble hydrogen and discharge itself unless an additive is used to raise its hydrogen overvoltage. The additive I came up with works well: 1% stibnite (antimony sulfide, Sb2S3). MnO2 powder (an overdischarged form) can be had at pottery supply stores, where many oxides, carbonates and sulphates are used to make colored glazes. Stibnite comes, eg, from pyrotechnic supplies.

* Nickel (nickel [oxy]hydroxide) probably isn't the best positive electrode. I'm presently trying out two things: the first is MnO2 with graphite powder to enhance conductivity (the 'ideal' form is easily salvaged from standard non-alkaline dry cells), charging it to potassium permanganate. It's chelated with Lemon Fresh Sunlight dishsoap (which has the stable sulfonates) to prevent migration of the slightly soluble permanganate. This has good voltage and moves three electrons/ions per reaction instead of nickel's one.

* The second thing I'm trying is Nickel Manganate, a substance about which little info seems to exist, but which is probably insoluble. I make this by torching nickel oxide (pottery) or hydroxide (eg, Palm Inc) and manganese dioxide (pottery) to red hot in a stainless steel pot. The torch blows a lot of it out... must be a better way.

Potentially these chemistries should give at least as high an energy density as lithium ion, and from dirt cheap ingredients and supplies.

A battery company may start making nickel-manganese alkaline batteries (pH 14, KOH) on an existing assembly line - I've contacted them but nothing's arranged yet.

I'm still trying to improve the very low conductivities of my own test cells and come up with better DIY battery constructions. I've indicated some supply sources above because some of these things, while not rare, may be hard to locate. I don't dare give a link to my preliminary instruction book and newsletter updates. If I knew of anywhere else you might find battery making instructions I'd mention it.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2012, 03:34:01 PM by CraigCarmichael »

joestue

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Re: Ni-Mn Battery
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2012, 08:01:12 PM »
that Sb-Mg chemistry seems interesting, but i wonder why they didn't go with Sodium-Lead?

i read through a bunch of stuff last night and it appears to me the 1.1 ohms per cc^3 of the 350C eutectic salt they are using is prohibitively high. the cells would need to be an inch thick or less to make the energy density high enough, and the cell diameters needed would make the heat too difficult to remove.. unless the efficiency could be raised to 90% from 71%.

The grid can't afford batteries that only have a 3 Kw per cubic meter power density...
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