Connecting to the power grid...

[Atokatim]

I have contacted my electric company and have obtained the agreement paperwork to connect a wind generator on my property to the power grid.  Their regulations require the generator to produce at least 200kw and be tested by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory.  Not quite sure what that means.  It also states this : "All equipment must include a manual, lockable, visible load break disconnect switch with such switch easily accessible by Distributor.  All Qualifying Systems must be manufactured (if a packaged system) and installed in compliance with all requirements of the latest edition of the National Electric Code (American National Standards Institute/National Fire Protection Association-70)".  It also include this : "must have a total nameplate generation capacity of less than 1 MW, and (e) must have a minimum rated output equal to or greater than 0.50 kW." 

And here goes the questions.

1.  Is this even something I should look into or is it too much trouble? 
2.  Would buying a factory made wind generator be better than building my own or more economical?
3.  I live at the top of a hill and wind is constantly blowing.  The regular wind speed around my area is 5 to 10 mph all day long. At night, the wind is roughly 1 to 3 mph on a calm night.  I have 1.07 acres of land to play with.  Is this worth installing a wind generator in my area?

[ghurd]

"Their regulations require the generator to produce at least 200kw and be tested by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory.  Not quite sure what that means."
Me neither. 
You sure it does not say 200kwh/year?  200kwh/year is not a whole lot of power (75 cents to $2.50 a month off your bill?).

"It also states this : "All equipment must include a manual, lockable, visible load break disconnect switch with such switch easily accessible by Distributor.  All Qualifying Systems must be manufactured (if a packaged system) and installed in compliance with all requirements of the latest edition of the National Electric Code (American National Standards Institute/National Fire Protection Association-70)""
I happen to agree with that.
Not as complicated as it sounds.  Pretty much it says the stuff has to be safe, understandable and shut-off-able by the people who may need to do it if you are not available.


A good deal of that kind of thing is open to interpretation by whoever is reading it.
Basically, the important interpretation is the one from the guy(s) who do the approval(s).

1  Looking into it can't hurt.
Do a lot of reading here before going to the authorities.
Some things are better re-worded, starting in one office may be better than starting in another, etc.
Too much trouble is your call.

2  Building your own is more economical, but it depends on the scale too.
This is one of the things that should be carefully worded before talking to someone with authority.  First impressions count ("I was figuring I could make me up a windmill out of car parts and connect it to ya'lls electric lines" would be a bad way to phrase it, and you can be sure the guy will remember you in a less than good way)

3  Reynolds distribution number (sp?).  A low average wind speed does not necessarily mean it won't work well.
Is it worth it depends on the goals.  Like why do you want to do it.  Fun?  Save money?  Save the planet?

The name plate readings is one of those things that should be carefully tippy-toed around?
The inspector(s) may read that as it Must be a factory made wind unit.
Another inspector may interpret the entire situation as meaning if the GT inverter is UL listed and battery based, then it does not matter if the battery charger (wind turbine) is factory made and UL listed.

Might find the electrical people are happy with the plan, but the tower people are not.
A turbine is not much good on a 6' tower.

Might find your state has a friendly law that trumps unfriendly laws imposed at the local level.  The local yahoos often pull this kind of crap thinking 99% of the people will never find out about the other laws.

'Fabricator' is having some problems.
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,143904.0.html

Dan has one grid tied,
http://www.briery.com/wind_turbine/

Some people have no trouble at all.  Some have more trouble than Bill Gates could deal with.
Nobody can predict how you will fare.
G-

[Atokatim]

Thanks for the great reply!  I love getting answers instead of links to where I can research it!

I asked the power company about the 200kw limit.  This is the Maximum power allowed.  The generator must at least be rated at 500 watts.  As far as the testing by the Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory....I guess I will have to research that some more.

I have been an electronic hobbyist for many years now but I always wanted to build my own generator.  I recently received a $250 electric bill in my 1300 sf house.  Not too happy about that since it is half my mortgage payment.

Now is the hard part... building the generator.  I have searched all over the internet trying to find DETAILED instructions on how to build one from scrap.  Since I need to produce over 500 watts and the wind in my area averages 5 to 10 mph, I need to find instructions on where to begin.  I have looked on Ebay for some Neo magnets but am not sure if they are worth getting or what size to begin with.  I am one of those people if i am going to build something, do it right the first time.  Why buy 32 magnets you think will work when someone else has done the same thing with larger magnets and found it works way better.  And of course, I am a guy so I need pictures......LOTS of pictures!  All this reading is killing me.  The last post I posted was research links with hundreds of other topics which did not fit what i was looking for.  This is why I signed up on here.  I hope this could be my 1 stop place to ask questions and get great answers like the one above

Thanks for the help!

If anyone knows where some DETAILED instructions (with LOTS of picture and explanations) are for a 500 + watt wind generator, please let me know!  Most links I have found just show bits and pieces on how to build one.  Since I am so new to this, I need every step.

[B529]

I have contacted my electric company and have obtained the agreement paperwork to connect a wind generator on my property to the power grid.  Their regulations require the generator to produce at least 200kw and be tested by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory.  Not quite sure what that means.  It also states this : "All equipment must include a manual, lockable, visible load break disconnect switch with such switch easily accessible by Distributor.  All Qualifying Systems must be manufactured (if a packaged system) and installed in compliance with all requirements of the latest edition of the National Electric Code (American National Standards Institute/National Fire Protection Association-70)".  It also include this : "must have a total nameplate generation capacity of less than 1 MW, and (e) must have a minimum rated output equal to or greater than 0.50 kW." 

And here goes the questions.

1.  Is this even something I should look into or is it too much trouble? 
2.  Would buying a factory made wind generator be better than building my own or more economical?
3.  I live at the top of a hill and wind is constantly blowing.  The regular wind speed around my area is 5 to 10 mph all day long. At night, the wind is roughly 1 to 3 mph on a calm night.  I have 1.07 acres of land to play with.  Is this worth installing a wind generator in my area?

Anything is worth doing if it is important to you.

Your utility company is requiring your grid-tied inverter to be UL listed, common practice whether it's a wind or solar inverter. All the wind grid-tied inverters are UL listed, SMA Windy Boy... To my knowledge the only UL listed turbine is the Skystream. I believe Proven is working on getting their turbines UL listed here in the states, don't know the status? High probability the utility is just going to want see the inverter UL listing/manual. Call the utility company and ask if the inverter manual is all they want.  

Breakers/disconnects is stuff you should have on your system regardless of where it is located, the utility wants outside access to breakers/disconnects in case of needed repairs to the grid, fires....

Build or buy? Depends on your budget, your ability, if your utility will allow a homebrew machine.

1.07 acre may be a little small? Depends on where you plan on locating the tower. It's a common county/city regulation to have to keep your tower within falling distance of your property line, 80ft tower, 80ft from your property line. A taller tower is always better.

How are you getting your wind speed data? Huge difference between 5 and 10 mph.

What is your KW usage for a month to get a bill for $250, 2500KW's? All electric home?

[B529]

You should check with your city/county to see what's required (engineer stamp drawings of tower and foundation) to put up a tower, any height restrictions?

[tanner0441]

Hi

As far as tested by a lab to national standards is concerned.  I used to need all my test equipment calibrated to that standard.  All it means is the equipment used to test the unit is tested to a  recognised traceable standard, and and type approvals are recognised  and of a defined type.   ie someone has paid lots of money to a recognised lab to test one of their units with high grade and accurate test equipment, and say it does what it says on the can, so as long as all the other units are made to the identical standard, they can all have the pretty sticker on the box.

I am in the UK but apart from a few words it is the same thing.

Hope this helps

Brian

[boB]

Their regulations require the generator to produce at least 200kw and be tested by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory.  Not quite sure what that means.

That would be UL/ETL/CSA  tested to a UL specification.   That should only cost 10s of thousands of dollars.   First you gotta find which spec
to test to and then buy the spec itself.  This is mainly for units you are going to produce.  Not done very much on a 1sie 2sie basis.


boB

[Atokatim]

Apparently, I am using 90kw per day top.  This would be 2790kw max per month.  Yep, I have an all electric house except for heating.  This is why I really need help getting started to cut this bill in half, or getting paid by the power company, or just pop off the grid completely.  Right now, I am in the research stage.

Here is the paragraph in the agreement about the certifications :

"The Qualifying System must comply with all requirements established by the Distributor for interconnecting Qualifying Systems to its distribution system including signing Distributor's Interconnection Agreement. The Qualifying System (including all interconnection-related equipment) must have been tested and listed by a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory for continuous interactive operation with an electric distribution system in compliance with IEEE 1547 (Standard for Interconnecting Distributed Resources with Electric Power Systems), IEEE 1547.2 (Standard Conformance Test Procedures for Equipment Interconnecting Distributed Resources with Electric Power Systems), and UL 1741 (Inverters, Converters, and Controllers for use in Independent Power Systems). The installer/manufacturer shall provide evidence of the testing and compliance with the applicable requirements. All Qualifying Systems will be maintained and tested on an ongoing basis in accordance with manufacturer's instructions and Distributor will have the right to obtain copies of the test results."

Around my area, building a tower is not a huge thing as long as you keep it under 100 feet.  Past 100 feet, I would need a blinking light.  I used to be really big into CB radio's and I have all the regulations on towers for my area.  I already have a 40 foot push up pole that I plan to use as the tower which was used for my CB antenna.

As for the design standards of the generator, is this some kind of specific guideline that I must build the generator to?  As in magnet size, magnet coil wire gauge, etc?

[B529]

http://www.secrcd.org/Page.aspx?PageID=5127

I certainly appreciate your wanting to cut your utility bill 45KW's a day, but that is a tall order with a 5-10mph wind.

The above real-world data is from a grid-tied Bergey Excell 10,000 watt machine on a 100ft tower. Don't know the wind speeds in Eastern Colorado, it is much higher than your number you posted for your site. Realistically if you want to cover half your electric load at your site you need to be looking at a machine of this size at least.

[Atokatim]

The wind speed I have registered is at 5 feet.  I have a wind speed meter for the RC planes that I fly.  I am not sure what it is 40 feet up. Currently, the wind speed it at 6 mph at 5 feet.

[windvision]

Atokatim:

  Ghurd is pretty much on target. I would want to do a lot more due diligence before making a decision to proceed. Knowledge is power. Some knowledge costs a lot more than others!

  For instance: You say you don't know the windspeed at 40 feet. Just as important is knowing the wind shear factor at that height relative to the surrounding structures or trees. Can you get an anemometer up to gather some wind data?

  Once you have wind data, you will then be able to determine how big of a turbine you need to buy or construct to offset the energy to meet your goals.

  Make SURE you understand every requirement needed (and its related costs) to build the project. I am pretty sure they want to see 200 KW of production before they proceed with the permitting process. Time is money, even for them. The nameplate capacity is from .5 KW to 1,000 KW is what they allow on their grid by what you have posted. The cost of a  manual, lockable, disconnect can vary widely between these two numbers. (Mine cost $68,000 for a 900 KW)

  I don't want to discourage you, but when you are done, you will be older, wiser, and maybe a little more cynical than when you started! But that is how we change the world. I wish you well.

[B529]

  900 KW

900 KW, What turbine? where you located?

[wooferhound]

I have a 1600 sqft house and pull an average of 27kwh a day. It's all about conservation, lighting, insulation, awareness, heating & cooling all can be gotten down to a level where it makes more since to add renewable energy to your mix.

You would probably never make more power than you are using so you should skip the grid tie step. Just charge a bank of batteries and use the power through an inverter. Then you don't need to worry about all those regulations. You would just be worried about the tower and your insurance company.

Now for all those links that you hate. These will actually help you though . . .

Some stuff to get you started
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,143642.0.html
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.shtml
http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments.html

Otherpower Plans $29
http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_30&products_id=226

Otherpower kits and parts
http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=22_30

Hugh Piggott's Plans $20
http://www.scoraigwind.com/axialplans/recipecontents.htm

[Atokatim]

$68,000 for a switch ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

Holy crap!

I am buying my house for $72,000.  Sheesh!

I have read several articles already where regular every day people have been off the grid for months.  They do have to conserve power a little more than normal, but to me, if shutting off a few things can save me $200+ a month, it is well worth it.....Even if the investment is $1000 to get to that point.

wooferhound :  Thanks for the links.  They are helpful.  I have already read them in previous research and have now bookmarked a few.

Since I am extremely limited on money, I am tinkering with items I have laying around.  Hard drive magnets work for small scale testing to understand the concept.  I am probably going to head to the junk yard to pick up a few AC motors to grab the wire out of.

Out of curiosity, are the Neo magnets on Ebay even worth buying?

[Tom Sullivan]

Atokatim,

   I can comment on your desire to "reduce your electric bill" as a motivation to build a wind turbine, but it will probably fall on deaf ears like it did to me when I had those glassy eyes 3 years ago.  My wind zone sounds pretty similar to yours, and generating enough power to see a significant reduction in your electrical bill is just not realistic, at least in a cost effective manner.  There are two ways to "learn" about the realities of wind turbines.  The first being the most prudent; research your wind resource effectively enough to make an informed decision about the wind energy available, and understand the limitations of wind generation in low wind zones.  The second method; forge forward and "buy" your education like I did.  $14,000 for a turbine producing 500 KWhs a year is not bad if you consider the first $13,000 as an investment into wind turbine education.  The ROI actually comes down to 15 years with that mind set.
   Sorry for the sarcasm, but if I talk one guy into rethinking about a wind turbine in a lower wind zone "as a reasonable ROI project", I've done some good.  If you want to do it for the fun of it, or as a hobby of sorts, then you're approaching it the right way.  I'm restoring an old Jacobs to heat water now, and will enjoy every minute I see it turn.  But without having the sour taste in my mouth from unrealistic expectations I had with my first AC induction unit.
   As far as reducing your energy bill, there's a lot of cost effective ways to do that without the huge investment of a wind turbine.

Tom Sullivan

[Atokatim]

I completely understand   Once I figure out what the average wind speed is at 40 feet, I will make my determination from there.

I have done some research on running a regular golf cart motor in replacement of turbine blades but have not found anything.  I have a 3 to 5 hp 24 volt 13 amp motor which spins at 2400 rpm's. Why would it not be possible to build a generator which can be turned by the golf cart motor?  The motor is connected to the batteries and run through some sort of speed control system to limit the RPM's of the motor.  Then when the motor is at full speed at which it is set at, it begins charging the batteries.  When a load is placed on the motor, there is more voltage / amperage to be given to keep the RPM's constant.  Having more than 1 stator set up would allow one to charge the batteries that run the motor, the other is to charge the batteries to run other items.  Of course, there is always the law that perpetual motion cannot be overcome.  In my eyes, rail cars at a drag strip defy several different laws....

Let me get the average wind speed at 40 feet and we can go from there.

[tanner0441]

Hi

Batteries running a motor driving a generator charging the batteries........... HHHmmmmm bad idea to even mention that on this site, but you will have a few very interesting replies.

Brian.

[Atokatim]

lol.  Yeah, I know.  It has always been a thought in my mind since I started learning about generators.  I have never tried it, but have read alot of articles about people who have and have failed.  The only thing I worry about is if I were successful at it and the government found out, I would probably be taken off the grid....not my house :p

[kurt]

what you are talking about is called overunity it is not possible to make a working overunity machine do to the laws of physics. we do not discuss overunity devices here because the discussion of them draws a type of people we do not need to have on this board if you wish to discuss overunity i suggest you go to a overunity board. any further discussion of overunity here by you will have consequences you probably will not like.

[Atokatim]

no problem   I did not mean to stir up anything.  Just something I always thought about.  I am 99% sure it is not possible anyways.

Back to the subject, I have talked with a few of my friends who were into CB radio's and still had towers up.  They also had an anemometer attached to the top of their towers.  Based on their readings, I think wind power is not the way for me to go.  Average wind speed over the past 7 days is 5 mph.  That is way too low to move on to this project.  Next step will be solar.  Since my house roof faces West to East, I am sure I can get some use out of solar energy.

Thanks for the great answers!  I am now starting research in the solar field now.

[wooferhound]

OK this is for your research into Solar Panels . . .
http://sunelec.com/

[SparWeb]

I asked the power company about the 200kw limit.  This is the Maximum power allowed.  The generator must at least be rated at 500 watts.  As far as the testing by the Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory....I guess I will have to research that some more.

At the risk of sucking this down to a 1+2 intellectual level, please check the proper units of measurement of electrical energy and power.  The "hr" is not optional.  Previous members trying to to answer have tried to point this out, but you didn't catch on.  Probably sounds like a drag, but it's getting funny.  The way it stands, it's a bit like asking how to tune the engine of your car up to "20 horsepower", when you're actually aiming for 20 miles per gallon.  If it's any consolation, the first person to answer the phone at the utility company may not be fluent in technical language either, and if you don't get past them to the next higher-up before asking your questions, the matter can get confused quickly.

windvision: 

  Mine cost $68,000 for a 900 KW 

This isn't helping any.  New members often confuse their units like this.  When posting replies, be on alert so that you can see through the mistakes, clear them up, and then go on with providing relevant information.

Okay that's all from Mr. Stickler.  Carry on guys!

[DamonHD]

Don't worry, I spend far too much time trying to educate journalists writing about renewables about the rather critical difference between "kW" and "kWh" and why the phrase "10 Watts per hour" is meaningless unless perhaps they are describing a very slow and inefficient solar-panel factory...  %-P

All those boring maths and science lessons in school: here's where they translate into real time and effort and are suddenly interesting.

Rgds

Damon

PS. Oh and don't try to "work around" the Laws of Thermodynamics: perpetual-motion machines won't and can't work.  My poor brother was the guy tasked with trying to gently save inventors' money and embarrassment at the European Patent Office who were attempting to patent such machines.  Yes, in Europe we don't teach elementary science very well in schools it seems.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

My poor brother was the guy tasked with trying to gently save inventors' money and embarrassment at the European Patent Office who were attempting to patent such machines.  Yes, in Europe we don't teach elementary science very well in schools it seems.

"In this patent office we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

The US patent office came up with a simple way to dump overunity applications:  They reinstated the early-years requirement that the inventor produce a working model, just for that category.  B-)  They reject any app they identify as overunity automatically, but anybody with a working model could, in principle, appeal and get a patent (or appeal a misclassification if it wasn't really an overunity attempt).

[windvision]

Sparweb (Mr. Stickler):

  I, like you, can highlight anything here on the board to make it fit my purpose. I believe I made it very clear in the prior sentence that you highlighted, that the cost of a manual, lockable, disconnect can vary widely. I did provide relevant information(facts).......mine cost $68,000.......for a 900 KW. It would be the readers responsibility to know the basic diifference between a 9KW and a 900KW turbine, which was the point of my post, "do your homework"

  Maybe this should have been put in the newbie section.

   

[SparWeb]

Hi Atokatim

I don't know if it's too late to fix this or not, now - you may find it difficult to sort out the fascetious answers from the serious ones.

At a guess, I think your utility is insisting on a minimum of 200 kiloWatt-hours of energy production per month.  Check the fine print to see if this can be averaged over the year.  Some months are windier than others.  It might also be the amount of energy to be produced in a year - but 200 kW-hr is barely a couple of days' usage and wouldn't be worth doing.  I personally use about 8,000 kW-hr, and by the sounds of it you need a lot more.

Let's consider, instead, the real equipment you have asked about:
You've asked about a wind turbine that can produce up to 500 Watts.  A good start for a hobby project.  Depending on one's skills it could be easy or ambitious. 
Towers are often best left to professionals - but if you want to educate yourself on the basics, I can recommend a few books.
Grid tieing a source of renewable energy requires an electric-conversion device that can do this.  There are many kinds of grid-tie inverters on the market, now, so some product research is in order there.  Several thousands of dollars, there.
The safety devices, correct wiring sizes, grounding, lightning protection, and so on are issues that you can also educate yourself upon, or leave in the hands of an experienced electrical contractor.  A licensed guy will sign off on the work and that will clear the way for your utility's regulatory requirements.

Does it sound complicated yet?  The path you're asking about is the most difficult one.  We like to keep it simple 'round here.  Grid ties are usually done by licensed pro's.  Since we're all about the do-it-yerself stuff, the grid doesn't come up as often.

You can spend a while learning about all of this stuff, (and you will be wiser for it) but usually, coming into a hobby only with a distant, final objective in mind, and you may give up.  I build my machines because I WANT to build them - the power they produce is of second importance.  Likewise some people build boats, cars, model trains, and so on, and they do it for the experience of the project, not as much for the final product (though the final reward is sweeter, too!)

Going back to your electricity consumption - the usual yada yada applies:  reducing your demand pays much more than any machine to produce it.

Good luck! 
PS I didn't say before "Welcome aboard"