Author Topic: Compressed air pushing water for power  (Read 11343 times)

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Vic Lane

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Compressed air pushing water for power
« on: August 16, 2010, 10:28:56 PM »
          I have seen 2 litre bottles of water and air (compressed) made into a rocket for kid's stuff. Is it possible to get more power from x psi of water than x psi of air? I think water has more density than air, so if I could air power a pto from a water based mechanism could I increase energy output? I have searched this board and others but not found this mix of water and air.   
    This site beats CR4.
                                   Vic

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2010, 12:09:46 AM »
          I have seen 2 litre bottles of water and air (compressed) made into a rocket for kid's stuff. Is it possible to get more power from x psi of water than x psi of air? I think water has more density than air, so if I could air power a pto from a water based mechanism could I increase energy output? I have searched this board and others but not found this mix of water and air.   
    This site beats CR4.
                                   Vic

Not the way you're thinking.

What's happening in the soda-bottle rockets is the power is provided by the compressed air but ejecting the water gives it more reaction mass to work with as a rocket.

You lose power every time you convert it from one form to another.  So you don't want to do extra conversions unless you save even worse losses somewhere else as a result.  Boosting voltage for cross-country transmission with transformers (to lower the resistive losses in the transmission wiring) qualifies.  Converting a power takeoff between water and compressed air does not.

Hydraulic (using oil) is a decent way to get power from one place to another.  Compressed air is not as good at this - not because of the lower mass, because it is compressible, so it loses energy from the side-effect of pumping heat from the location where it's used to the location where it's compressed.

Vic Lane

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2010, 03:46:19 PM »
Ok. Maybe I needed to ask: " Is it possible to have higher efficiency from a water driven device as opposed to an air driven device?" . I do not have capability for any head for water so I was hoping for an alternative. Thanks for a clear response.
                  Vic

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2010, 08:36:40 PM »
Ok. Maybe I needed to ask: " Is it possible to have higher efficiency from a water driven device as opposed to an air driven device?" . I do not have capability for any head for water so I was hoping for an alternative. Thanks for a clear response.
                  Vic

Are you talking water/air as a power transmission medium from some prime mover (like a gas generator) or water/air as a source of wild power to be captured.

I think we covered the first alternative, so assuming you're talking water turbines vs. wind turbines:

Two answers:

1) Water is heavy and most of its energy is in the form of it being raised from the outflow level (or this can be arranged).  Under many circumstances you can capture nearly all of the energy in it, because you don't need to leave much energy in its momentum as it leaves.  Air is a gas and neutrally bouyant in its environment.  So all its available energy is in the form of mass-with-momentum.  You have to let a lot of it flow out of your mill to let new air come in, bringing more energy with it, so you have to leave a lot of energy in it to get it out of the way.  A wind turbine can never collect more than the Betz limit - 59.3% - of the energy in it.  So your inefficiencies you down from there, not from 100%.

2)  Why are you worried about "efficiency"?  That's a red herring.  When "the fuel is free" the measure of efficiency you should be worried about is how many watt-hours per buck of infrastructure and maintenance cost, not what fraction of the energy in the source ends up in your wires.

Collection efficiency is like horsepower in a Rolls Royce:

Customer:  How many horsepower does this model's engine produce?
Salesman:  An adequate number.

Vic Lane

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2010, 11:20:10 PM »
     I made the common mistake of not laying the whole idea out first. Sorry. I wish to utilize the compressed air from any source to pressurize a water tank. The water will only be used to provide a pto for a Pelton wheel or similar mechanical conversion to rotary. I will keep the air pressure above 100 psi at all times.
      My goal is to acquire air storage from any means during my busy times and then return to my point of use. I am unclear as to if there is any advantage by using water in this way. Your remark about the bottle rocket makes sense. Just like a Jet ski. Very cool.
      Thank you for clarity.
                                      Vic

DaS Energy

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2010, 02:46:37 AM »
Hello Vic,

I have just stumbled upon your question.  Some eight years ago we perfected such type of thing. Having high pressure gas force water from a line to drive a hydro turbine in constant motion. Sorry I cant yet get image to post across just get

That which you describe has been done in a way, should you have two bottles one of compressed air and the other empty the full bottle of air will drive a hydro turbine and the air escape shall half fill the empty bottle. Alternately an easier way has been developed in Open Technology.

The Open Technology which achieves this is known as the DaS Valve. Should I have means I am most happy to transfer all details.

Liquid is contained in a vertical feed pipe leading to a hydro turbine emptying into a catchment tank itself draining back into the feed pipe.

At top internal liquid in the feed line is a gas pocket that when heated expands placing a drive force on the liquid driving the turbine.

When the gas has reached a low level a self activating valve opens letting the gas out and the liquid drain back.

The gas itself is cooled by passing through liquid to again form a pocket above the liquid.

Cheers Peter






























JW

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2010, 10:39:49 AM »
Hi Peter,

welcome to the forum...

To insert pictures hit "additional options" when you are at the screen to post your reply. Once you click on additional options, you will see ":Attach" from there hit browse, and find the picture from your computer.

I always will resize and "save for the web" in jpeg format I use MS Image composer to do this, but you can use any program to resize that you would preffer, for example the 2 pictures below are about 20k and the forum will handle pictures to about 100k file size.





dont forget to hit "insert attachment", and then "more attachments" for the next picture, I think one can add 10 pictures to a post. also, you will not be able to see the pictures on "preview", unless you use the "insert picture button", but to use that function, the picture must have a "url" this is why you have the red x, in your post, the picture is not hosted on the web, the easy method is the "additional options" route.

Have fun-

JW

dnix71

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2010, 12:22:52 PM »
Using compressed air for power generation is horribly inefficient. Really, really, really inefficent. Not worth the time even if it's free, inefficient.

If you need to move water from a deep well, an air lift might make sense, but not to make electricity.  If you need to turn a wheel for a mechanical process, then using compressed air directly would be more efficient.


JW

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2010, 06:27:38 PM »
Kind of reminds me of how they build water-jet cutting machines. I agree with the majority, but also, acknowledge that, most likely a hydralic "expander" if you will, would most likely come out a couple notches ahead of air, unless you had a really sophisticated air-expander. But as a general rule hydro-electric Dams, turbines are of higher relative efficiency than there steam turbine counterparts.

JW

DaS Energy

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2010, 07:08:22 PM »

Hello JW,

Thank you for your help.     1395-0

The DaS Valve as shown works equally as well when fed compressed air.

In its original status it was a positive action water pump with no moving part other than the tennis balls used for one way valves and the gas release valve.

Thanks again

Peter

DaS Energy

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2010, 07:39:30 PM »

Hello JW.

May I comment on your last post. I agree entirely.  Your notice of the expansion chamber draws me to show you further work.

The Co2 Turbine uses internal  expansion chamber to radically cool the Co2 gas to to liquid which then is forced into the hydro turbine by the high pressure gas bearing down on the liquid Co2.

The operation of a thermocline is in effect, this allows high pressure hot gas at the top of the feed pipe and liquid Co2 in the bottom level .

Cheers

Peter

JW

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2010, 08:16:27 PM »
Thanks for the pictures DaS Energy,

I think it is great, that you are willing to share, also, there is another thread on a stirling engine that makes use of the/a re-generator the link is here-

http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,144130.0.html

Interesting stuff...

JW

DaS Energy

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2010, 08:51:39 PM »

Hello JW,

Thank you for the Link to Stirling Engine. Always take my hat off to someone having a go.

Dad and Sons being old land people did a lot of research on the Stirling Engine and for what it is a does a good job.

Control Technology of Brisbane introduced the DaS Valve to CSIRO who were experimenting with the Stirling Engine on a helicopter.

DaS Energy Open Technology free to copy is our way of reducing carbon release whilst cutting back on the cost of energy.

Cheers

Peter

DaS Energy

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2010, 09:04:57 AM »
Hello Jw,

Sorry to away so long computer went poobah, took my E-mail address with it.

Just a note from our latest work.

Please ignore the gasses for heating etc as you wish to use compressed air and that will do just as well.

What we have acheived now is like capturing the equal opposiste of a force.

Basically means the air charge you put in to spin the first time, will by repeat spin a second turbine the same at the same force.

Cheers

Peter

DaS Energy

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Re: Compressed air pushing water for power
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2010, 09:09:37 AM »
Hello Jw

Sorry attachment didnt go with llast reply.1666-0