Author Topic: Ratio Formulas  (Read 1578 times)

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zander1976

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Ratio Formulas
« on: August 18, 2010, 08:25:29 AM »
Hello Everybody,

Are there any formulas to figure out the best ratio to build a vawt. Heres a list of things that I was thinking about:

1. Height - The taller it is the more blade surface area and more lift but it also increases the amount of a lever it has. I am guessing this effects how much twisting torque it would need to deal with.
2. Width - The wider it is the more torque it produces but lowers RPMs.
3. Blade width - The wider the blade is the more surface area but the more drag or wind distortion.
4. Airfoil - I noticed that the airfoil lift is pointed inwards why is that. To reduce the force on the blades at higher speeds.
5. Breaking - If I just ground a PM motor will that cause enough breaking to stiop it..

Thanks, Ben

DragonFly III

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Re: Ratio Formulas
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2010, 10:23:41 AM »
Ben,

When I first started building my Vawt I had a difficult time figuring out the same info.  I ended up going with what I had.  Ie. i had a 5' steel pole for the mast so I made it 5' tall.  The width was a little different since I bought the materials.  I chose 18" covert pipe because if it were too wide I could change the mounting possition. 

 If you do find the info please post it and i'll keep an eye on this post.  If i find anything I will post it here.  There has to be some sort of info out there. 

SparWeb

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Re: Ratio Formulas
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2010, 12:53:03 AM »
There's no magic number, I think.  If you're reading the Sandia test reports like I did, you'll figure that "square" is a good starting point, then make something, and adjust it from there.  One thing that stopped me working with VAWT's was that increasing the rotor diameter drastically reduced the RPM's (as you say in #2).  Even running without a load I found that it was turning very slowly to begin with.  Considering making it taller, but I could tell that the oscillations of the top, even at 4' tall, would get worse unless I put a bearing and supported it with wires at the top.  And that was that.

Your questions #2 and #3 both lead to the "solidity" of the VAWT rotor, whatever its design.  A savonius has nearly 100% solidity, and a darrieus may have about 20% or so.  Increasing solidity, by adding a new blade, or widening the chord of the existing ones, for example, will slow it down.  Same holds for HAWT's for that matter.

To brake a VAWT with a PM motor you would "short" the motor's wires.  Connect the leads directly to each other, ensuring that you do this on the side of the rectifier / diode that gives the battery protection.  This certainly works with HAWT blades, and the VAWT's don't have that much more torque that you can't use this method.

Of course, if you insist on breaking the motor, a 6-foot drop to a concrete floor would do...

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
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XXLRay

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Re: Ratio Formulas
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2010, 03:44:03 AM »
You can brake a VAWT by flaps that come up by centrifugal force or you can use a centrifugal brake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrifugal_governor).

electrondady1

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Re: Ratio Formulas
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2010, 08:47:49 AM »
i like narrow and tall.
i put the latest one up sunday.
it's 20"x52".
the  alternator i built about 7 years ago (ceramic mags) and it weighs a lot .
its likes a bit of wind to start turning.
for me the the right ratio is ,
 if the mill won't stop when you short the alternator you have too much wing.!!
or not enough alternator.

one thing i want to stress especially on a mill with just a bottom bearing .
balance, balance, balance!

« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 08:52:59 AM by electrondady1 »

Norm

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Re: Ratio Formulas
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2010, 09:42:08 AM »
  If I ever get a round tuit I think the best way to go with a VAWT is
to hook it to an air compressor with a loaded spring to power the
compressor stroke....that way the pressure should never exceed the
pressure of the spring?
  Then use a reciprocating air motor to drive a PM motor for electric.
eliminating the need for batteries.
   There is a member on the discussion board that has posted on this
, but far too little ....I think this topic has been discussed much too little.
  Would like more discussion by members that have actually went this route.
Even links about this would be helpful.

SparWeb

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Re: Ratio Formulas
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2010, 10:39:48 AM »
one thing i want to stress ...

no pun intended?
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

zander1976

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Re: Ratio Formulas
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2010, 11:28:14 AM »
Sounds good, thin and tall sounds interesting to me, I was looking at the travel distance of the blades in feet for 1 revolution:

Radius (Feet)   Circumference (2pi * R)
1                   6.28318
2                   12.56636
3                   18.84954
4                   25.13272
5                   31.4159
6                      37.69908
7                   43.98226
8                   50.26544

Torque I assume is speed of the wind by the distance in some form or another. What ever that formula is.

The same formula could be applied to the height as well. If you consider the base as the center of the circle and the height as the radius then you have some form of calculation for the amount of torque that would be applied to the base. Am I even close?

The thing I am really not taking into account at all is lift from the airfoil shape. A 1' radius would need to travel 6' for a revolution but a 3' wide would need to travel 18' per revolution. If they both had the same RPM then the wider turbine would have 3 times the speed and therefor x amount of extra lift.

The centrifugal break sounds like a great idea. I will have to check that out in more detail.

Again, thanks everybody for your help.
Ben