Author Topic: Volts/Amps and Safety  (Read 9089 times)

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zander1976

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Volts/Amps and Safety
« on: August 24, 2010, 09:21:36 AM »
Hey,

On to safety questions. I remember as a kid my father telling me to touch something around the engine that ZAPPED me and I have been terrified of cars ever since. A regular A/C circuit didn't hurt that much and god knows I have touched those plenty of times. On to DC, I am obviously scared to even jump start a car or hold the cables for that matter. So since I am going to have to get over this fear working with renewable power I figured I might as well ask when I should be scared of DC ( volts and amps ).

When connecting something to a battery, do I always connect the grounds first ( black right )?
When connecting batteries together do I follow the same logic?
What is considered dangerous to touch? 18V and 3 Amps?
How much would it hurt if I touched a 12v car battery?
Are there grounding straps that people use when dealing with electricity?
Can I touch a battery or is that a bad idea?

Thanks,
Ben

ghurd

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 10:02:03 AM »
Volts hurt.
Amps kill.

12V is below the threshold most people can feel.
Personally, my threshold is about 20V, and an open circuit 12V solar panel will make me loudly use bad words.  The sweatier I am, the higher the volume.
24V nominal (~28V) will make me speak in tongues.
48V is the highest DC voltage considered moderately safe, but it can kill you.

I have read all kinds of numbers for what is a lethal amount of current.
Seems like they taught us 0.1A back in the day, but I see numbers as low as 0.01A in some conditions.

Electricity flows through the easiest part.  In your situation, a grounding strap would be a very bad idea.

Your father had you touch the spark plug wire.  Huge amount of volts (hurt), but limited amps (you lived).
A stun gun is basically the same thing in a portable unit.

Respect batteries.
Most common stupid thing done is setting a wrench (et al) across the terminals.

This seems like a good primer-
http://www.dribin.org/dave/blog/archives/2003/12/29/amps_vs_volts/

Numbers to argue over-
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/JackHsu.shtml

Touching a 12V is safe enough.
G-
 
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Bruce S

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 10:03:08 AM »
Ben;
 Let me help ease some of your fears.
FIRST fear and safety can be good when it comes to DC.

The thing your dad probably had you touch, depending on the year, was the condenser up around the coil.
Back in the "DAY" engines were spark controlled by point, rotor and condenser.
Points were the make/break circuit which happened from the mechanical action of the rotor. The condenser was the holder of that AC. Yep  AC since condenser store and only gives up AC to the BIG coil that ALL the spark plugs are connected to. The coil holds the high voltage, back then around 30,000 volts with near (0) current. Now its up in the 50,000 volts.

Danger comes when you become part of the circuit, and a normal person's skin has a high enough resistance that the electricity THAT ALWAYS takes the path of least resistance. Person's skin resistance is up in the Mega-Ohm range so just touching a battery won't do much at all.

Sweat salty laden skin is a different story  :P that skin is in the Kilo-Ohm range  which is also in the normal resistor ranges.

When working with DC I would NOT be using a grounding strap that is normally used for static electricity dissipation. These voltages are very high voltages and the straps are used to keep those away from chips and stuff.

Would it be dangerous to touch 18V and 3 AMPS? yes it could be , but only if you're trying to be not safe with it. Touching one hand on the Pos side and the other hand on to Neg side may not be a big deal at all , unless you have wet fingers.
Normally it is not the voltage that will kill, it is the current flow that can take a life.

Car battery is the same thing. Dry fingers touching a car batteries terminals won't do much. Wet, sweaty etc can give you a zinger or two.
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Rover

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 05:31:40 PM »
The lethal part of DC  takes effect through the path it takes in your body, for instance if a circuit is made from one hand to the other , good chance it could pass through your chest . The bad news is that you can never be sure of the path, and even a circuit path through a portion of your body that may not be lethal, lets say knee to foot (and how one does that , not quite sure, but plausible) , at high enough current will leave you with some very interesting burns.

Basic rule of thumb, if you don't know how much voltage/current ... turn it off first if you can, in the case of an array of  solar panels.. drape them with a drop cloth.

It does need respect ...

one of my favorites is, if working on a battery or battery bank, try not to use a conductive tool that can bridge + and - , a lot of us learned it the  hard way, not a happy welding lesson.


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rossw

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 05:50:28 PM »
When connecting something to a battery, do I always connect the grounds first ( black right )?
When connecting batteries together do I follow the same logic?

Most of your other questions have been answered, seems most people overlooked these ones.

Strictly, it makes no difference which one you connect first.

HOWEVER, from a pure "safety" point of view, it's better to connect the "hot" end first and THEN the ground.
So if you're jump-starting a car, for example, hook the positive (red) lead from the flat battery to the positive of the donor car or battery.
THEN connect the ground of each.

Why? Well, it's actually fairly obvious when it's explained. If you connect the grounds together, then the "hot" lead will arc and spark if it touches ANY exposed metal on the vehicle.

For the same reason, you're better to DISCONNECT the grounds first, and THEN the hot/positive.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2010, 05:52:19 PM by rossw »

zander1976

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2010, 06:27:40 PM »
Many thanks to you all. I feel much more comfortable around bateries now.

Thanks again

ChrisOlson

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 10:09:34 PM »
24V nominal (~28V) will make me speak in tongues.

I seen some people leap out of their seat do that at some sort of revival deal once.  Maybe they had 24 volt battery banks hooked up to the pews.
Chris

ChrisOlson

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 10:18:51 PM »
one of my favorites is, if working on a battery or battery bank, try not to use a conductive tool that can bridge + and - , a lot of us learned it the  hard way, not a happy welding lesson.

Especially when you have a 3,000 amp-hour bank of 12 volts made up of Group 29's that can each deliver 650 Cold Cranking Amps.  15,000 amps will make a Craftsman steel handled hammer glow red instantaneously and disappear with a loud BANG.  Don't ask me how I know.
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joestue

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2010, 04:51:49 AM »
sounds about right. 

12 volts divided by a steel bar 2cm^2 x 30 cm long is about 80000 to 90000 amps. thank God it will never get that high due to the point contact resistance and the lead battery terminals.

otherwise you'd have a rail gun.
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Bruce S

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2010, 09:53:15 AM »
When connecting something to a battery, do I always connect the grounds first ( black right )?
When connecting batteries together do I follow the same logic?

Most of your other questions have been answered, seems most people overlooked these ones.

Strictly, it makes no difference which one you connect first.

HOWEVER, from a pure "safety" point of view, it's better to connect the "hot" end first and THEN the ground.
So if you're jump-starting a car, for example, hook the positive (red) lead from the flat battery to the positive of the donor car or battery.
THEN connect the ground of each.

Why? Well, it's actually fairly obvious when it's explained. If you connect the grounds together, then the "hot" lead will arc and spark if it touches ANY exposed metal on the vehicle.

For the same reason, you're better to DISCONNECT the grounds first, and THEN the hot/positive.


Rossw;
 Thanks for putting this part up  :)
Work called and I hit Post
Bruce S
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wpowokal

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2010, 08:10:51 PM »
The effects of an electric shock are cumulative on the heart.

The voltage is an important factor in how much current (amps the bit that hurts/kills you) flow all other things being equal, the duration of the shock is very important to how much you are harmed.

An example of this is a farm electric fence, high voltage 20.000V +or-, low current the pulse of which must be for a brief period but is repeated every 1-2 seconds, the break in the pulse gives time for you to let go of the fence and a few bad words.

A shock from a farm electric fence is known to relieve/cure Ross River fever.

Allan
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2010, 11:20:37 PM »
Ben;
 Let me help ease some of your fears.
FIRST fear and safety can be good when it comes to DC.

The thing your dad probably had you touch, depending on the year, was the condenser up around the coil.
Back in the "DAY" engines were spark controlled by point, rotor and condenser.
Points were the make/break circuit which happened from the mechanical action of the rotor. The condenser was the holder of that AC.

Actually, the condenser was to prevent destruction of the points by arcing on break:

 - With the points closed the current in the primary rises until limited by the resistance of the wire (and the balast resistor, if there is one).  The core of the coil becomes magnetized, storing energy.

 - When the points open what you WANT is for the current in the primary to stop, the magnetic field to collapse, the collapsing field induce a very high voltage in the secondary, and this voltage to strike an arc across the spark plug and dump the energy from the field into the spark, igniting the fuel-air mixture.

 - But without the condenser (or if it fails) the current strikes an arc across the opening points.  Energy from the collapsing mag field pumps up the voltage across the points to keep the arc running, vaporizing metal off the points and moving it from the more positive to the more negative contact.  Eventually the arc extinguishes and any remaining energy MAY strike a spark across the plug.  But the spark is puny and its timing varies from shot to shot.  Meanwhile the arc is rapidly eating the points.  (You replace points and condenser as a unit, in case the points failed because the condenser was failing.)

 - The condenser is a capacitor (with some series resistance).  When the points open the current quickly diverts into it, charging it up, rather than striking an arc across the points.  By the time it's significantly charged the points are open enough that the arc doesn't restart across them.  So after a very deterministic time the voltage spike occurs and the only place for the energy to go is into the plug.

 - Of course when you then CLOSE the points the charged condenser discharges rapidly through them.  This would weld them if not for the series resistance of the condenser, which limits this inrush current.  It does move a bit of metal from point to point, though.

 - If the values of the various components are correctly matched, the amount of metal moved one way when the points close is about the same, on the average, as the amount of metal moved the other way when they open (and there's a tiny arc before the current diverts to the condenser).  So the points average out to staying unburned and uneroded for a long time.

Note that the voltage spike occurs both across the primary and the secondary (though it's far greater across the secondary, which is high voltage low current due to having many more turns).  If you put your fingers across the point circuit the current will try to run through you, and you'll get a "poke" there.  So you can be jolted by the inductive kick either at the primary or the secondary terminals.

Quote
Danger comes when you become part of the circuit, and a normal person's skin has a high enough resistance that the electricity THAT ALWAYS takes the path of least resistance. Person's skin resistance is up in the Mega-Ohm range so just touching a battery won't do much at all.

Sweat salty laden skin is a different story  :P that skin is in the Kilo-Ohm range  which is also in the normal resistor ranges.

Story I heard in E.E. school:  Some freshmen got into a bet on whether you could electrocute somebody with a 1.5V battery.  Guy betting "can" knew that it was current that mattered and 20 mA up the left arm would do it.  Guy betting "can't" got into put-up-or-pay-up mode and was convinced to sit in a chair with each arm up to the elbow in a barrel of salt water while a 1.5V battery was hooked between them.

Oops!

Went into V-fib and they were unable to get him restarted.

Fortunately this is a very extreme case of wrecking skin resistance.  So you're usually safe with minimal precautions up to about 50V - and usually in for at least painful trouble at 120/240.  The main hazard with up-to-48V systems is accidentally shorting a battery with a tool and pulling thousands of amps - with vaporizing metal and maybe exploding acid-filled batteries following moments later.

But if you get cut on a wire or grounded sheet metal you've got direct conductor-to-body-fluid contact.  Do that twice at two voltages simultaneously and you're a potential victim of "microelectrocution" - as people once were in hospitals before the medicos figured out that it only takes a TINY bit of juice on EEG/EKG electrodes or needles to fry the patient.  So use some care around even "usually safe" voltages.

Quote
When working with DC I would NOT be using a grounding strap that is normally used for static electricity dissipation. These voltages are very high voltages and the straps are used to keep those away from chips and stuff.

ABSOLUTELY!   The thing you DON'T want is to give the current a better path through your body.  When working on electricity one of the rules is use only one hand - preferably the right (which puts less of the current through the heart) - and avoid grounding yourself elsewhere as much as possible.  Also you try to ALWAYS keep a posture and weight distribution such that, if a shock fouls your muscle control, you fall or jerk AWAY from the wiring, rather than into it or latching onto it.  Better to fall off the ladder than hang up on a live wire.  (And always treat things as live, as you always treat a gun as loaded.  You never know when you'll get a visit from the Ammo Fairy or Reddy KillerWatt.)

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2010, 11:26:57 PM »
Basic rule of thumb, if you don't know how much voltage/current ... turn it off first if you can, in the case of an array of  solar panels.. drape them with a drop cloth.

THEN short them, in case the cloth falls off.  (And use care when shorting them in case the cloth lets some light through of slides off while you're shorting them.)

Shorting solar panels doesn't bother them at all.  (But make sure the wires can handle the current.)

Quote
one of my favorites is, if working on a battery or battery bank, try not to use a conductive tool that can bridge + and - , a lot of us learned it the  hard way, not a happy welding lesson.

This is why the auto mechanics unhook the ground side of the battery first and hook it back up last.  That way everything but the battery's "ground" post is dead until the last connection is made and the wrench is already at ground potential if it happens to bump into something conductive while making the final connection.

It's good to do the same with your home bank if you can.  (Unfortunately it may be set up so the equivalent is not an option - especially when working on jumpers between cells.)

joestue

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2010, 02:42:41 AM »
At some point here's a certain amount of risk that you have to accept as reasonable.

For example if I'm hot plugging cards at work, I do wear the esd wrist strap, however its a dry environment and my boots are good to several kv, and so is the esd strap.
However outside in an uncontroled environment its really too damn easy to get 240 across your chest. done that before, and I started wearing gloves. some things have to be fixed while they are still running, your diy RE doesn't.

Often times the inductive kick from the jumper cables can zap you good (i've got an uninsulated pair just for the other guy to hold  ;D  ) , but if you aren't touching the car when you disconnect the cables then the car's tires will prevent this.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

Bruce S

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 09:54:24 AM »
ULR:
 Correct on the post. I wasn't going to so deep into description so we won't loose readers.

Here in the medical world ALL EKG machine are set to a standard of 10mV @ 25mm/s and the calibration pulses are standard at 5mV, so that can quickly tell you just how little a voltage can disrupt things.

A little further into the world of medical knowledge reading and people will also find out the the heart basically runs off salt water to fire. Too much salt and the body tells you so, too little salt where the Sino-Anode <-sp in the heart can't fire and you have heart rhythm problems.

This becomes evident when people go way over board and cut out ALL salt.

The fun part of going through Auto-tech classes was charging up the condenser and throwing it to someone :). Until you were the one catching. Amazing how quickly nerve endings can fire and let the bugger go!!

Old Army boots works for me, the resistance is enough to keep my feet from being ground. In our server room the entire floor has a built in copper mesh to act as a ESD dump. The ground bar alone that ALL grounding goes to weighs 4 lbs. Another reason to keep everything under double mag-locks where even the owner doesn't have direct entry.

Rich, If he's reading, can attest to the server room.

The maintenance people from MGE, when they visit every two years to change out the 4 rows of ten batteries ( nope I can't have them, already asked) wear the same safety suits that high-voltage workers use. Their Fluke meters have very long lead connectors that have a rubberized coating on them except for the very tip and I can understand why. 480Vdc is nothing to sneeze at.


Allan
 I had heard of that solution, also works as an early lesson for little boys "relieving" themselves while crossing the pasture  :o . better that than the bull with the really fast hooves and really sharp horns  :-\.

BUT I digress.
Cheers
Bruce S


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electrondady1

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2010, 06:38:57 PM »
one sees the increasing use of capacitors in conjunction with windmills .
they need to be given due respect.

fabricator

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2010, 08:28:21 PM »
My system is 48 volts, and it scares the hell out of me, I can do 220 or 115 VAC all day long and never break a sweat, but when I started with 4 group 29s and wired them together I had a craftsman screw driver laying some where and it ended up across a cable end and a terminal, the resulting arc was a half inch from my right hand and it was really hot, in a micro second it burned the cable end off and the 1/4 inch screwdriver shaft right in half.
Now I have eight batteries and after advice from Chris I have a pair of dry leather gloves hanging on the battery rack, whenever I'm gonna do anything on battery bank or the DC side if the inverters the gloves go on, bad burns really suck, especially electrical burns because they can go deep and leave you open to bad infections.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
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dnix71

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2010, 11:55:13 PM »
It's definitely the amps. My earliest memory of being shocked was about age 4 sitting on the ground playing with a turntable my neighbor had discarded. It had a metal base and when it was turned on the base went live. I turned it on at least two or three times to check that it was, in fact, not usable. I am fortunate to react to 120vac mildly. It hurts and I let go.

I must have a guardian angel somewhere. The church I attend was built in stages over 30 years and much of the wiring was not to code. We had a panel with aluminum buss bars and copper wire that was over loaded, so one time I volunteered to tighten the set screws which gave us the most trouble burning out breakers to the a/c in the social hall. The pastor was standing next to me just in case something went wrong. When I tried to tighten the top right set screw, the allen wrench touched both the screw and the steel panel shell blowing a quarter sized hole in the panel, welding the set screw and blowing off both ends of the wrench. I had turned off all of the disconnects on the back wall, but didn't check the top breakers on that panel. They had been hard wired to the meter. An licensed electrician working on the same panel later set fire to the wires in the raceway and finally replaced the entire panel.

I was holding the allen wrench in my bare fist because the leather gloves I had been wearing wouldn't fit up in the top corner of the panel. I remember a flash and taking a step backwards. The pastor looked at me strangely and asked "David, are you dead?" "No Mike, sorry about that, I'm okay." "Are you sure you're not dead?" "No Mike. really I'm okay." All I had was a small flash burn on the third finger and a few singed hairs. There was a moment between the flash and the step backward that felt like someone had taken my place, and Mike must have seen it, but I never had the courage to ask for details. I haven't given up on electrical work, but now I don't ever assume the power isn't off without checking and double-checking. There are bold electricians and old electricians but not ones that are both. I would like to be "old" one day.

joestue

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2010, 05:47:59 AM »
Most of the time people describe being shocked.. its always them shorting out something and the flash.. but they didn't complete the circuit, the screwdriver did.

An electrician wiring up the generator panel on my dads house when I was in grade school, punched the knock-out with a pair of pliers and half of it disappeared in a flash, accidentally touching the meter lug (we had 200 amp service, so the short circuit current was about 30,000-100,000 amps)... since then I haven't been afraid of electricity... he was standing there on the ladder thinking he should call the electric utility and shut off the power, I told him to close his eyes and make the rest of it disappear.. take a guess which one he chose.... (i had told him we had some extra paint if the house got scared.)

The only hazard is the electro-thermal flash, and the possibility that the tens of thousands of amps could send a piece of whatever flying through you.
Household breakers are only rated to 10,000 amps, any more and they will physically explode due to the magnetic field literally ripping them apart.
Close a 20 amp breaker on a stack of pulse capacitors next item you get a chance.. i'd pay money to see that again.

Few years back at work someone grabbed a 15kv line... just after describing how good the insulation was..he literally stood there for 15 seconds frozen, came too and said.. "that was insane"...
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wpowokal

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2010, 11:43:03 AM »
Joe one can only assume he was very well insulated, normally 15KV mains would boil you blood away as there is no break, he did buy a lottery ticket I assume.

Allan
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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2010, 07:58:05 PM »
I used to do motel maintenance, I had to go into attics of rooms many times to repair air-conditioner motors. One day I climbed my 6 foot ladder to go into the attic. When I squeezed up through the hole a wire nut came loose and connected to my wet t-shirt. At the same time I reached out to a grounded structure to pull myself up. When I grabbed the grounded connection I was locked onto it and could not let go. I realized the Bad situation I was in and struggled to let go. I did eventually get loose of the electrical connection and fell down the 8 feet from the ceiling to the floor. It took me 5 minutes or so to realize that I was still alive and banged up from landing on the tile floor.

I still think that is the closest I have ever come to being electrocuted . . ..

ChrisOlson

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Re: Volts/Amps and Safety
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2010, 07:51:25 AM »
I still think that is the closest I have ever come to being electrocuted . . ..

Close to being electrocuted?  You were about as electrocuted as you can get.  You were dead.  The thump when you hit the floor probably restarted your heart and you survived it.
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