The gloves are off

[fabricator]

Discrimination on the basis of wealth, it is simple, if you can afford a system that is high end everything you can harvest wind power on your own land, if you can't afford a Cadillac system you are out of luck, in my book that is not equal opportunity under the law.

You might want to talk to a lawyer. I have never heard of a law protecting anyone from discrimination based on wealth in the United States.  Capitalism is sort of based on discrimination on the basis of wealth, if you know what I mean.

Not the same thing at all, this is telling someone if you can't afford a Cadillac you are not allowed to buy and drive a Fiesta.

[David HK]

I've read through the County law that you posted and have the following comments.

The county Township Board should have their day-to-day occupations set alongside their names for the record. This would reflect if they had any knowledge of the subject matter and indicate whether or not they had the ability to question any part of the legislation.

There is no mention that I can see that a period of public consultation for the proposed law has been carried out. If it has, or has not, this should be recorded in the law as a note.

The legislation seems to be a cut and paste affair and in some parts refers to ‘nacelles' and monopoles are usually associated with the giant turbines seen in most countries around the world.

This paragraph is astonishing reading and can only have been written by a nincompoop with no engineering knowledge:-

“Electrical System:

All electrical controls, control wiring, grounding wires, power lines, and system components shall be placed underground within the boundary of each lot at a depth designed to accommodate the existing land use to the maximum extent practicable. Wires necessary to connect the WET to the tower wiring are exempt from this requirement. Suppose your home is built on bedrock?

What is fascinating about the legislation is that it dies not stop you from:-

putting up a tower with a rotor to drive a compressed air pump to aerate a fish pond,
nor does it prohibit the same set up to drive a ‘clanger' for bird scaring,
nor does it prohibit the same set up for water pumping from a well.

But there may be other legislation on these matters somewhere else.

I would challenge the Township Board to publicly declare who wrote this legislation by name, the qualifications of that person, and demand to know if it is derived and born as a result of cut-and-paste from the laws in some other County, State or Federal jurisdiction.

This paragraph is interesting:-

(3)   All WETs constructed prior to the effective date of this Section shall not be required to meet the requirements of this Section; however, any physical modification to an existing WET that materially alters the size, type, equipment or location shall require a permit under this Ordinance, in compliance with the standards of this Section.

The word constructed means made. It does not say ‘erected'. The legislation is poor and non specific.

It should read:-     All WETs constructed and erected prior to the effective date of this Section shall not be required to meet the requirements of this Section.

Section 4.51   WIND ENERGY TURBINES (WETs).

(A)   Purpose: The purpose of this Section is to establish guidelines for siting wind energy turbines (WETs).

Law is Law, guidelines are not law, although they seem to have been enshrined in law in this case.

Another interesting paragraph:-

(2)   A small structure-mounted wind energy turbine (SSMWET) and a small tower-mounted wind energy turbine (STMWET) shall be considered a permitted use in all zoning districts and shall not be erected, constructed, installed, or modified as provided in this Ordinance unless appropriate Township permits have been issued to the WET owner(s) or operator(s).

There is nothing do declare a minimum size of turbine. It might be a 12 inch diameter rotor powering a stepper motor!

Another paragraph which clashes with principles:-

Section 4.51   WIND ENERGY TURBINES (WETs).

(A)   Purpose: The purpose of this Section is to establish guidelines for siting wind energy turbines (WETs). The goals are as follows:

   (1)   To promote the “safe”, effective, and efficient use of a WET in order to reduce the consumption of fossil fuels in producing electricity;

   (2)   To preserve and protect public health, safety, welfare, and quality of life by minimizing the potential adverse impacts of a WET; and

   (3)   To establish standards and procedures by which the siting, design, engineering, installation, operation, and maintenance of a WET shall be governed.

The word “safe” is used above and in this paragraph the following is declared:-

Guy Wires: Guy wires shall not be permitted as part of the SSMWET or STMWET.

This is ridiculous, the whole point of guy wires is to maintain and enhance safety.

I hope some other users of this forum can contribute.

Glad I don't live in the USA, laws are different between counties, between States and then again with Federal law. No level playing field anywhere.

David in HK

[JoeD.]

  This is a doozy.  About 8 to 10 years ago a local business bought some ground on the southeast corner of our small town. They hire folks to take care of retarded folks who they manage to get moved out of the mental institution here.  They got this ground with a grant and built themselves a new office building on that ground. They also bought a local radio station. Money everywhere back then.

  Anyway, the land they bought is no where near covered by this building. Lots of room left.

  One day I noticed this bright white strobe on the south edge of town way up above the trees. I thought to myself "WTF" is that- but I never drove down there to investigate.

  About a month after I noticed the strobe I read an article in the local newspaper describing all the business discussed at the recent city commissioners meeting.  One order of business was them grilling the local building inspector about who built that huge tower over in the S.E. corner of town?  The inspector said he had no clue- no one ever got a building permit for one.

   I drove down and looked. Holy Crap- this was a huge, 4 legged lattice tower about 120' tall. Turns out is was a celll phone tower. The bunch that bought that ground and built the building made this sweetheart deal and leased the ground to the tower owners and the tower owners just went and built the tower without ever getting a permit or permission from anyone. A big frickin tower!  How that ever slipped thru the cracks I'll never know.

  So, the city gave them a permit after the fact and nothing was ever done about it. This is evidence that it is easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission!

[Beaufort]

How about this....add a little circuitry to read out wind speed from one of the phases and call it an anemometer.  Still subject to height, setback, etc. as stated in the ordinance but flies around the other facist requirements for wind turbines.  After all, an anemometer is just a propeller driving a motor and a circuit reads the voltage (or counts pulses, depending on the model).  Then it looks like you can put guy wires on the tower if it's an anemometer and "temporary".

What kind of ordinance exists for flags?  A flapping tattered flag on a flagpole makes way more noise than a wind turbine, and people put those things in their front yards.  Flying the American flag is a protected right in most parts....just make an Old Glory tail for your homebuilt and call it a flag (with a big anemometer attached!).

80 acres with no visible neighbors?  Just fly it, dude!  Who's gonna know?

[ruddycrazy]

You think you guys have problems over there, my old neighbor applied to council to put up a commercial 5kw turbine and a 50' tower and got knocked back as they didn't have any ordinance in place or have a clue what it was.

 I'm on 85 acres and on a dirt road where if 10 cars drive by a day it's a busy road, when I bought the place the 40x20 shed turned out to be too small so I built an extension 40x16' on it, ( at the time we we're paying rates on unimproved grazing land). I have a turbine tower beside my shed and it's been up there for about 4 years now with no interest from the council.

When I did go for council approval for the new 40x20 shed beside the house I did ask the enginear about wind genny towers etc and his reply was 'don't go mega watt and don't tell us. I don't the hassle of the rest of the council on my back for a sane issue that will get right out of hand'.

When the electrical guys come on the farm to work on the high voltage towers they often ask what I do with the extra power and when I say I heat the workshop with glowing wire they look stumped and ask why I don't put it back on the grid. I just tell em bring the grid TO ME and I will otherwise my shed will stay warm or ultra cool in summer when the city has the power turned off.

[Volvo farmer]

Not the same thing at all, this is telling someone if you can't afford a Cadillac you are not allowed to buy and drive a Fiesta.

Poor analogy.  What they are saying is that you can drive a car, but only if you follow all the rules. If you can't afford to follow all the rules, you have to take the bus.  Yes, it costs more to follow the rules than to not follow them.

Perhaps the reason you can't get any media interested in this story is because you are hung up on this "discrimination on the basis of wealth" idea.  By definition, anything that is regulated by government, costs more than if it is not regulated. 

Government will not let you build a house of of pallets and bailing wire, but it is not discrimination just because you are too poor to afford 2x4s and OSB

Government will not allow you to burn all your old tires in your backyard, but it is not discrimination just because you can afford a match and a pint of gasoline, but you cannot afford seven dollars a tire to dispose of them at the landfill.

If you really want to put the thing up with a guyed tower, I suggest you form a corporation and claim that constructing a monopole tower would adversely affect your PROFIT. Here in these United States, rules are changed, bent and ignored all the time with no consequences, as long as it is done in the name of corporate profit.

[DanG]

Look through your State rolls for manufacturers, vendors, installers of non-monopole towers and see if incentive to lend you advice, a hand, or even a second-hand information packet from another market with the same arbitrary restrictions.

Goggling the boiler plate WET (snicker) definition gave 570~ hits, adding the term 'monopole' gave 160~ hits from other municipalities - looks like they just happened to borrow & rephrase some other jurisdictions code that had a monopole vendor in town...

[poco dinero]

Hi fabricator, 

In your situation I'd be tempted to  either circumvent the rules or comply with them rather than fight them.  Fighting the system can cost you more than a good tower.  Besides, those bureaucrats are like elephants when it comes to remembering somebody who messed with them and getting even.

How tall of a tower do you need?  Is your land flat or hilly?  Is it treed or barren?

You live on eighty acres, so you got lots of dirt, and lots of space.  If you have a tractor with a front end loader, I'd be tempted to build a thirty to forty foot high dirt mound, then put a 20 foot monopole on top of it.  As URL suggested, the monopole could be a hinged lamp post.  Or a 20 foot section of used pipe, supported at the bottom half by three smaller diameter pipes arranged in triangular fashion as viewed from above.  That approach would probably be cheaper than a guy wire tower, that steel tubing is expensive.  If your soil is rocky that's even better, because you could stack the dirt with a pretty steep angle of repose, minimizing the amount of dirt needed.

If your property has tall trees, another circumventing approach might be to put in the regular guy wire tower you were planning to use, but put it close to a tall tree, then secure it to the tree about ten feet down from the wind turbine and remove the guy wires and get your permit signed off.  Put 'em back on when you want to lower the tower.  Remove all the tree branches and leave just the trunk to minimize sway in high winds.  You gotta remember, that once your permit is signed off, the bureaucrats won't bother you again unless somebody complains, and that doesn't seem likely in your case.

That ordinance provision banning guy wire towers was probably put in because somebody considered guy-wire towers unsightly.  I went to all the trouble to put in beautiful 56 foot tall, hydraulically operated tapered monopole towers, and I still hear through the grapevine that some of my neighbors are complaining that they are an eyesore.  Just plain old human jealousy.  'Course, I only have twelve acres so my neighbors are a bit closer.

I haven't posted for a while because I'm just coming off a three day suspension that TomW imposed on me for refusing to stop defending Chinese products against attack by unknowledgeable people, so I'm going out on a limb here with this next suggestion.  My next suspension will be permanent, according to Tom, so if you never hear from me again, I got booted.  Two strikes and you're out. 

If you decide to put up a monopole tower, order it directly from the factory in China.  It will be less than half price.  My experience indicates that you needn't worry about sending money to a Chinese firm; they won't cheat you.  If they do and get caught, the government chops their heads off.  Not like here. 

I have a written quote from Exmork for a 15 meter (50 foot) free standing monopole tower for $2378 including ocean shipping to Los Angeles.  East coast shipping is just slightly more, and they might ship down the St.  Lawrence seaway to a seaport near you.  These towers are segmented and  telescoped together for shipping.  There is a company in Michigan (Trans-overseas Corp in Romulus, Michigan)  that will handle all the customs duties and overland shipping for you at very reasonable cost.  They will know if the Chinese ship to some seaport in Michigan, like maybe Bay City or Port Huron.  I bet they do.  I've used Trans-overseas and they do a good job.  Pilot86 used them too.  That tower I mentioned above is for a 5000 watt turbine.  My two Chinese towers were only 40 feet long, but they are so strongly overbuilt that after running the calculations I added another 16 feet to them.  I could have added another forty feet, but didn't need to.  If you want more information let me know in a personal message or a reply to this post; I don't want to get accused of promoting Chinese products for monetary gain.  Contrary to accusations against me in previous posts, I don't particularly love the Chinese, I have no financial arrangements with any Chinese firm, I am not a paid spokesperson, a dealer, or a distributor; just an old guy dying of cancer in beautiful southern Utah, trying to help fellow wind enthusiasts find and purchase reasonable quality products at reasonable prices.

poco

[Volvo farmer]

I haven't posted for a while because I'm just coming off a three day suspension that TomW imposed on me for refusing to stop defending Chinese products against attack by unknowledgeable people, so I'm going out on a limb here with this next suggestion.  My next suspension will be permanent, according to Tom, so if you never hear from me again, I got booted.  Two strikes and you're out. 

    Sorry for the topic drift, but this is unsettling news. 

[fabricator]

I haven't posted for a while because I'm just coming off a three day suspension that TomW imposed on me for refusing to stop defending Chinese products against attack by unknowledgeable people, so I'm going out on a limb here with this next suggestion.  My next suspension will be permanent, according to Tom, so if you never hear from me again, I got booted.  Two strikes and you're out. 

    Sorry for the topic drift, but this is unsettling news. 

Yes it is, if Poco gets booted for trying to be helpful in this thread you can color me gone also.

[kurt]

we don't really care if he suggests a Chinese product as long as he does it in a civil manner and does not instigate or further a flame war with another user we are cool. he got tangled up in a very basic rule here play nice or you will not be allowed to play anymore.

[electrondady1]

 i like poco's idea.
buying a piece of heavy earth moving equipment may be cheaper than a lawyer.
 and a whole lot more fun.
building an earth berm, or mound ,around your house (need a pond?)
with a bunch of stylish mills on top, sounds like a good solution.

publicity and public opinion is the key when trying to get government to do the right thing
your trying to save the world,the "boys" are trying to save face.
your doing something green and local government is trying to stop you ?
that should make the news.

[fabricator]

The media couldn't possibly care less unless it involves the latest survivor or big brother episode, the problem with building a hill is it would involve an earth change permit and it would involve several thousand cubic yards of dirt to make a hill 30' high and with enough flat area on top to place a tower foundation, then you would be placing the foundation in uncompacted ground that would settle unevenly for years, but the chinese tower idea is interesting.

[klsmurf]

but the chinese tower idea is interesting.

Especially when your tilt up guyed tower could be made and built "American"

[12AX7]

Hello!

Fabricator,  I think your problem with the media is "lack of eye candy".

I vote with those who already said "build it".
When (if ever) they come to tell you to "take it down" most news medias will fall over themselves covering your story.

In these days who could be against RE?
A couple of  No Trespassing signs and a few dogs might help!

ax7

[TomW]

we don't really care if he suggests a Chinese product as long as he does it in a civil manner and does not instigate or further a flame war with another user we are cool. he got tangled up in a very basic rule here play nice or you will not be allowed to play anymore.

Yeah, he left out the true reason.

Slandered me, too.

I clearly explained "why" he was in the read only club to him when it happened but he made up his own "reason" to garner sympathy I guess?

The facts are obvious in his posts here.

That is all I will say on it.

Sorry for the additional topic drift but the facts should be known.

Tom.

[fabricator]

but the chinese tower idea is interesting.

Especially when your tilt up guyed tower could be made and built "American"

Since I have been a steel fabricator for 30 years there is nothing I would like better than to build my own turbine, but these worthless, moronic, anancephalic, imbeciles want come up with what has to be one of the most anti residential wind ordinances in the United States.

[Volvo farmer]

Yeah, he left out the true reason.

Slandered me, too.

I clearly explained "why" he was in the read only club to him when it happened but he made up his own "reason" to garner sympathy I guess?

My apologies for not considering both sides of the story.

[Isaiah]

 Hey All The Michigan Folks Why don't we get together and set up The Michigan Alternative Power Authority ?
 We can set up some rules and send it to all state and local servants that no laws ordnances etc past present or future will not become law without the approval of The  Michigan  Alternative Authority.!!!
 This may sound far out but it is how the Notorious Michigan Township Assn(MTA) And Michigan Assn Of Countys ( MAC) got their start.
 Any Interest ?
 Ill check back to see if there is interest.

[frackers]

How about a mobile tower like I used when I started.



This is a half of the 6 section 120 foot trailer mounted tower I borrowed off a mate. I could get more details of it if you're interested.

Note that its guyed but its not a permanent structure so probably not subject to planning paperwork.

[damian]

It may be worth your effort to try to get the law changed.  I spent four years as the mayor of the very small rural town in which I live.  One of the things that is most frustrating to see is laws that were passed because someone in local government thought it would be a good idea, but had no knowledge of the practices they were regulating.  Visual impacts are totally subjective.  When I was in office there was one council member who would occasionally make a lot of noise about how we had to regulate solar panels because they looked bad.  I don't think they will ever be regulated here but we do have a lot of laws on the books to limit visual impacts.  It can be a strong argument and one that local government people often think they have a lot of support for, so they do things that go too far.  One way to approach this, if it works for you , is to ask the planning commission or whoever is in charge of these things to consider an amendment to the law that would make it more reasonable.  Something along the lines of a setback requirement for guyed towers, or a height limit on guyed towers.  Banning them completely makes no accommodation for people who want one.

Best,

Damian

[TomW]

These were mentioned in another thread here.

Do local cell towers, power lines or other objects use guy wires?

If so you might be able to change the rules by citing those apparently safe uses of guys?

Then there are the FCC rules that prohibit prohibitions on amateur radio towers. Slap an antenna on it part way up with the turbine on top. Now it is an antenna tower that happens to support a turbine.

So glad this stuff is not even a consideration for me! Just my proximity to a regional airport restricts me to a specific height above average terrain but nobody can tell me what "average terrain" is for me.  I am probably at or above it already with my 65 foot water pumper tower but even it is shorter than some of the trees in the big timber on the West end of the property.

Sorry you are in this situation. Trying to be part of a solution and being blocked by stupidity is always a sad thing.

Good Luck.

Tom

[Isaiah]

Yes the cell phone towers in my area have guy cables.

I am well aware that most of these local governments along with their so called attorney's are passing laws that they have NO AUTHORITY TO DO SO!!!
The U.S. Supreme court has ruled that when your eyes leave the white lines on the edges of the road you are Trespassing and is  ruled a TAKING!!
The same court has also ruled that zoning ordnances MUST be constitutional.
 The tower mounted trailer if its in the United States one might want to put a slow moving  vehicle sign on it and maybe a bale of hay..
 The thought for today
""If i do not have the personal authority to tell you that you may not have a wind mill tower on your property and you don't have the personal authority to tell me or any one else we may not have or cannot do a certain thing on our property Then  How in the World can we delegate that authority to our elected servants???""
  Make them prove that they have jurisdiction over you.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

How about a mobile tower like I used when I started.

YES!

Thank you thank you thank you!  B-D

[fabricator]

How about a mobile tower like I used when I started.



This is a half of the 6 section 120 foot trailer mounted tower I borrowed off a mate. I could get more details of it if you're interested.

Note that its guyed but its not a permanent structure so probably not subject to planning paperwork.

Right now my turbine is on a hay wagon with a steel deck, it is about 25 feet up and has guy wires that mount on the deck of the wagon, if you do a google search on "first flight with a load" it will be at the top of the page.

[fabricator]

It may be worth your effort to try to get the law changed.  I spent four years as the mayor of the very small rural town in which I live.  One of the things that is most frustrating to see is laws that were passed because someone in local government thought it would be a good idea, but had no knowledge of the practices they were regulating.  Visual impacts are totally subjective.  When I was in office there was one council member who would occasionally make a lot of noise about how we had to regulate solar panels because they looked bad.  I don't think they will ever be regulated here but we do have a lot of laws on the books to limit visual impacts.  It can be a strong argument and one that local government people often think they have a lot of support for, so they do things that go too far.  One way to approach this, if it works for you , is to ask the planning commission or whoever is in charge of these things to consider an amendment to the law that would make it more reasonable.  Something along the lines of a setback requirement for guyed towers, or a height limit on guyed towers.  Banning them completely makes no accommodation for people who want one.

Best,

I have met with the entire planning commission twice, both times they totally agreed with every argument I made, the chairman said he could not find any flaws in my  logic, both times they he said they would consider it and get in touch, both times I received emails from the zoning administrator saying the commission felt they had done due diligence in this matter and they will not change the ordinance, what you said is absolutely a fact these people have no idea of the realities involved in small wind and what is more, they don't care.

Damian

[fabricator]

These were mentioned in another thread here.

Do local cell towers, power lines or other objects use guy wires?

If so you might be able to change the rules by citing those apparently safe uses of guys?

Then there are the FCC rules that prohibit prohibitions on amateur radio towers. Slap an antenna on it part way up with the turbine on top. Now it is an antenna tower that happens to support a turbine.

So glad this stuff is not even a consideration for me! Just my proximity to a regional airport restricts me to a specific height above average terrain but nobody can tell me what "average terrain" is for me.  I am probably at or above it already with my 65 foot water pumper tower but even it is shorter than some of the trees in the big timber on the West end of the property.

Sorry you are in this situation. Trying to be part of a solution and being blocked by stupidity is always a sad thing.

Good Luck.

Tom

Yes there are all kinds of communication towers in the township loaded with guy wires, one township over PBS has their transmission towers that are around 500 ft tall with guy wires, there are power poles in hundreds of front yards with guy wires on them, in my zoning I could put up a grain storage facility with all the towers and auger tubes and any guy wires necessary to support them but NOT a wind turbine tower with guy wires.

[fabricator]

I don't know if I mentioned it before buy the ordinance does not even allow self supporting lattice towers, only self supporting monopoles.

[David HK]

Having read all the contributions to this article, and no doubt conferred with others, are you in a position to see the way ahead?

Crashing ones head into a brick wall is easy, but the wise thing to do is quietly work around it.

If you live in 80 acres of land and cannot see any neighbour, one has to ask when any Township Board member or employee ever visited your land to inspect it for anything in particular.

If this has not occurred why not put up a turbine and declare to the authorities that it was 'constructed' before the new legislation date. Remember my earlier posting where I argued that constructing a wind energy turbine is one thing, whereas erecting it is quite another.

Keep us informed about progress, I am sure many board members are very interested to follow the outcome of this saga.

David in HK

[fabricator]

Oh make no mistake this turbine is going on a tower one way or another, I just got a quote from exmork that I can get a fifty foot tilt up monopole shipped to either Chicago or Detroit for a little over 4300 bux, that is not too bad, a home built guyed tilt up would cost me at least half to two thirds that much, according to Poco they are built very heavily and the exmork guy said they are hot dip galvanized, it just boggles the mind they can build a tower and ship to the other side of the planet for that much.

[frepdx]

... iit just boggles the mind they can build a tower and ship to the other side of the planet for that much.

this is why; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOBqRVDOYQ

[fabricator]

... iit just boggles the mind they can build a tower and ship to the other side of the planet for that much.

this is why; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOBqRVDOYQ

Jeez, it sucks to be that one tall guy in the middle.

[freejuice]

... iit just boggles the mind they can build a tower and ship to the other side of the planet for that much.

this is why; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOBqRVDOYQ

Sorry for the topic drift...but that's at least a 20 ton press...if the rolled over on someone while they were in the wrong location, they would instantaly spray into a pink mist. OSHA would padlock the door on any company in America doing that kind of stunt...and the owners brought up on criminal charges