The gloves are off

[fabricator]

Over there those guys are probably considered well paid middle class, I would imagine if you get your hand smashed off or your arm, you are SOL, no disability, no workers comp, just totally screwed, I just heard on NPR this morning a lot of work is moving to VietNam because the Chinese wages are going up.

[poco dinero]

Jeez, it sucks to be that one tall guy in the middle.

Hey, at least they all got jobs.  And they all look happy.  And they apparently eat well.  I found a lunch bag full of chicken bones inside one of my towers.  Plucked clean.

poco

[poco dinero]

Fabricator,

I'd like to make a few more comments regarding your tower situation.

I just got a quote from exmork that I can get a fifty foot tilt up monopole shipped to either Chicago or Detroit for a little over 4300 bux, that is not too bad

Is it a hydraulically operated tilt-up?  Hope you checked to see what is included.  I suspect that for that price they include the tower, the hydraulic cylinder (if its a hydrauluic tilt-up tower), the hydraulic cylinder base plate, the fourteen 1 1/4 diameter 89 inch long foundation bolts, and two "positioning boards" (mine were made out of ten pound plate).  On mine, those cylinders are huge compound cylinders weighing about 400 pounds apiece, look like they fell off a D-10 CAT ripper.  They cost $990, in China.  If all that stuff isn't included, you need to shop some more, because that cylinder and those bolts will cost you boo-koo bucks here in the states.

Also, if the tower you got the quote on is rated for 10 kw turbines, as mine are, and you're only going to put a 5 kw turbine on it, you can add a bunch of height to it.  Those towers are designed to withstand a certain amount of rotor thrust; turbine weight isn't the determining factor.  If you're going to add to it, I'll be happy to run the calculations for you, but you should probably have them wet-stamped by an P.E. licensed in Michigan so they got somebody to sue if it comes down, which it won't.

Check out this website:

     http:www.f-n.cn

It is for the Shenzhou Hangzhou tower company, the folks that built my towers.  You can download a tower installation manual from that website.  The manual gives all the structural specifications for their towers, dimensions, steel thickness, flange diameters, etc.  I suspect they make towers for exmork, because when I asked exmork if they could send me a hydraulic tower, they referred me to that website above.  You can verify this by asking exmork to email a tower manual to you, and comparing specs.  If they are the same, you will be getting a well built tower.  Or you can just ask James Ye if Shenzhou makes their towers.

according to Poco they are built very heavily and the exmork guy said they are hot dip galvanized

Just for fun, download the Skystream tower manual and compare it to the Shenzhou tower.  Either the Skystream tower is way underbuilt (which I seriously doubt) or the Shenzhou is overbuilt.  And yes, mine are hot-dipped.  I think they leave them in the tank too long; never in my life have I ever seen such thick galvanizing.  I had to grind some off to do some welding, and the zinc looked like it was about a sixteenth of an inch thick.

In case you can't tell, I really like my towers.  It takes me less than a minute to remove the 22 one inch diameter flange bolts using an air impact wrench, then my Kubota tractor lowers the tower from full vertical to full horizontal in 25 seconds.  Takes 45 seconds to raise it back up to full vertical.  The cylinder and the hinge hold it while I put the bolts in.  The Chinese even supplied a huge drift to align the bolt holes; crude but effective.  I wouldn't even think of using any other type of tower, and without those towers I'm not sure I'd want any wind turbines.  They'll spoil you rotten too.

You might also check with Pilot86, or maybe he will chime in here, but he recently bought a hydraulic tower and I think he got it directly from Shenzhou.  He told me he had it shipped into Boston for less than $3 grand, cylinder and all.  And by the way, he was having problems with the authorities too.  Don't know if or how he resolved them.

poco

[poco dinero]

I got that link wrong in the previous post.

The correct link is:

          http://www.f-n.cn/

poco

[tecker]

They will have to go to court if you simply put it up . Then you will have the benitfits until the whip comes down my guess they don't have an engineer to back up their ordinance .

[fabricator]

I got that link wrong in the previous post.

The correct link is:

          http://www.f-n.cn/

poco

Poco, thank you so much for the information, this looks like a realistic way forward for me, it would be great if you could possibly PM me with your email so we could talk about your tower.

[klsmurf]

Personally, I am one who is willing, and have been known to, fight a losing battle just on principle. I get the idea, that you Fab, may have similar views. A couple lyrical quotes come to mind. 1). "Send lawyers, guns and money"
2). "I've got the pistols, so I'll keep the pesos"
I say put the damn thing up the way you want and let the chips fall as they may. Litigation may bring a law amendment, or at least a compromise.

[fabricator]

Personally, I am one who is willing, and have been known to, fight a losing battle just on principle. I get the idea, that you Fab, may have similar views. A couple lyrical quotes come to mind. 1). "Send lawyers, guns and money"
2). "I've got the pistols, so I'll keep the pesos"
I say put the damn thing up the way you want and let the chips fall as they may. Litigation may bring a law amendment, or at least a compromise.

Yeah that is pretty much how I feel, unfortunately I am just a Joe Lunch pail type who is not made of money, so there would have to be something involved that a lawyer would be interested in working on contingency for.

[TomW]

Yeah that is pretty much how I feel, unfortunately I am just a Joe Lunch pail type who is not made of money, so there would have to be something involved that a lawyer would be interested in working on contingency for.

I have heard of attorneys that do this kind of thing "Pro Bono" (FREE) if they think it will build their skills, image or experience.

Especially if your rights have been abridged. I believe yours have been.

It might just take a letter from an attorney to nudge them into a variance or simply a rules change.

Nobody in public office wants to be responsible for an expensive court battle to persecute a citizen at taxpayer expense.

Most of things get sorted out well before court.

Civil Disobedience is an American Tradition you know! From the Boston Tea Party to the Civil Rights Movement in my lifetime. Only difference is scale.

I seem to have something to say every day on this.

Tom

[fabricator]

I wonder how you would go about finding such a lawyer?

[DamonHD]

A little disobedience works wonders on this side of the pond too.

Plus knowing when to ask the council's head of legal if they'd like to DoTheRightThing(TM) to avoid blowing a wad of cash on judicial review or whatever it is that would expose them to censure and public ridicule.  I get on well with our local council, but a couple of short polite phone calls seem to sometimes have dramatic effect.

Rgds

Damon

[poco dinero]

Hi fabricator,

I want to correct an omissiion in my previous post.

Also, if the tower you got the quote on is rated for 10 kw turbines, as mine are, and you're only going to put a 5 kw turbine on it, you can add a bunch of height to it.  Those towers are designed to withstand a certain amount of rotor thrust; turbine weight isn't the determining factor.

This only applies when the tower is vertical.

When the tower is horizontal, obviously you can't just keep adding tower height and turbine weight forever, or at some point either the hydraulics will give up or you'll have a structural failure when you try to raise the tower.  I added the height I wanted, then hung twice the turbine weight (220 lbs) on the end, and tested it.  The 2250 psi hydraulic system on my Kubota raised it just fine.  I'm going to install a 750 lb 5 kw turbine on it one of these days, and when I do, my calculations indicate I might have to give up some tower height, or use my other tractor, which has a 2500 psi hydraulic system on it.

poco

[DanG]

The principle of economic discrimination is a moot point, the US Constitution provides no guarantee any/all citizens can/will enjoy equal levels of material faculties or endowment. Other Civil Codes enacted for the communities well being most always come with a premium price: Smoke detectors in houses, guard rails on elevated decks, air bags and seat belts in cars, removing snow and ice from public sidewalks, the sets of electrical and fire codes, etc..

If you state formally the local officials through their ordinances have snubbed you via "DEPRIVATION OF RIGHTS UNDER COLOR OF LAW (A,B)" know it is a very serious charge, and in that the codes require all residents (not just you) to abide by the adopted new code could put persistent accusations against the individual butt-headed elected officials' malfeasance into the slander or libel category.

All I am saying is tone down the rhetoric - hundreds of thousands of others had/have the Civil Codes rub them the wrong way...

[fabricator]

Hi fabricator,

I want to correct an omissiion in my previous post.

Also, if the tower you got the quote on is rated for 10 kw turbines, as mine are, and you're only going to put a 5 kw turbine on it, you can add a bunch of height to it.  Those towers are designed to withstand a certain amount of rotor thrust; turbine weight isn't the determining factor.

This only applies when the tower is vertical.

When the tower is horizontal, obviously you can't just keep adding tower height and turbine weight forever, or at some point either the hydraulics will give up or you'll have a structural failure when you try to raise the tower.  I added the height I wanted, then hung twice the turbine weight (220 lbs) on the end, and tested it.  The 2250 psi hydraulic system on my Kubota raised it just fine.  I'm going to install a 750 lb 5 kw turbine on it one of these days, and when I do, my calculations indicate I might have to give up some tower height, or use my other tractor, which has a 2500 psi hydraulic system on it.

poco

If I got a fifty footer, the most I'd want to add would be fifteen to twenty feet, my turbine weighs 350 lbs all up.

[Isaiah]

Just a thought if you have a tractor with 3 point hitch put a 3point hitch on the tower and hook the tractor to it then you are farming with wind.
if you could find a old junker just let it sit there.

[Albert]

Ran into this information a few days ago.Don't know if you got your tower up yet or not.You might be able to get these guys to help you in the right direction. www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html   Didn't see anything about having a fan (mill)  on top of your tv antenna.

[artv]

Hi Fab & all,..If it was me I'd build the tower ,when they say you can't do that , I'd build three more..........artv

[gsw999]

this is probably gonna sound pretty crazy but if you left the winch attatched somehow could you claim it was a temporary structure??

a funny story from the uk ...

A guy didnt want anything to do with the council , planning regs etc , so he built a house inside of a huge load of hay bails, it was a big proper brick house, he lived in it for 5 years til the council found out , then they came and tore it down , no one complained about it but they tore it down anyway , I have very little respect for the authorities, they seem to make it ultra difficult for the little guy whilst the big corporations with 100s of legal people do what the hell they want.

[freejuice]

LOL you could put a winch on it...raise it at night  fall  and down she goes in the morning...ha! put it on a timer!
 That ought to piss off the natives...if they ever see it )

[gsw999]

that would be somethin wouldnt it

[fabricator]

With spring getting closer things are going to some to a head within a couple of months, one way or the other either that machine or the new one I'm building is going on a Chinese hydraulic tower.

[troy]

If your mill/tower can be lowered in less than a minute, build a car detector.  Mill/tower lowers automatically every time the car drives past.  Nobody ever sees the mill in action.

"I see officer.  You received a complaint about a wind turbine.  Could you point out the wind turbine for me?"

Of course, this only works if you get a few cars a day...



troy

[redtick]

this is probably gonna sound pretty crazy but if you left the winch attatched somehow could you claim it was a temporary structure??

a funny story from the uk ...

A guy didnt want anything to do with the council , planning regs etc , so he built a house inside of a huge load of hay bails, it was a big proper brick house, he lived in it for 5 years til the council found out , then they came and tore it down , no one complained about it but they tore it down anyway , I have very little respect for the authorities, they seem to make it ultra difficult for the little guy whilst the big corporations with 100s of legal people do what the hell they want.

Here in Altus, Ok we had a guy who got tangled up with the city. He wanted to build a new building where his old one was. His plans did not meet the new ordinance. The old rules allowed for a 25' front, new ordinance. forced 40'.  He would be forced to buy the property next to him. He went round and round with them but the city blocked him. He built a cement block building inside the old building. When he finished the "remodel" he took the old building down uncovering the new building.

[DamonHD]

Someone attempted something similar in the UK recently and was forced to knock the new one down I think.

Rgds

Damon

[kenl]

 "Sometimes it's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission"

 Myself I would put it up and when the county started to harass you call the tv stations.

kenny

seemed like a good idea at the time

[freejuice]

A policeman stopped by just yesterday, and when I answered the door he said he wanted to talk to me about my windmill.... I said Uh-oh...here it comes...some kind of  new county ordiance in now in place.
 Well it turns out he was all interested in the stuff and lives about a 1-1/2 miles from me. So I gave him tour of the setup....he's wanting to do the same thing, I told him I would help in any way possible.
 He said he looked into those wind generators you could buy for residential use but the prices scared him away. He then asked me if mine was homemade.
 I said yep sure is and could not have done it without this web site
 I also told him about the helpful folks here.

[DamonHD]

Good stuff.

At least when he comes to haul you off to jail he'll share his coffee with you!  B^>

Rgds

Damon

[fabricator]

LOL, and maybe half a donut?

[freejuice]

 Here in town they move the sheriff's office into a vacated building for more room back in the 80's....well it was right across the street from a Krispy Kreme doughnut shop...none of the cops would go in there because of the stereotypical responses.
However my Dad would, he was an investigator with the county. I would alway razz him about it being a "strategic decision"  Yet, all the other cops would say “Man I wouldn't go in there, if I was you".  But once he put a dozen of those luscious babies on the desk and turn his back to get his case files...when he returned they were scoffed up.

 Then for a few mins those two got togeter trading police stories and doughnut comments

[TomW]