More Costs for Solar

[wdyasq]

I purchased some of the Kaneka $0.98?W panels and am now installing them. I thought I should mention some of the related costs. I've got 3kW of panels but will break it down "per panel" and see what an installed cost might be - not including my 'free' labor. Costs will be approximate with a bit of explanation following.

$60 Panel
$20 Shipping - ~$500 for 25 panels
$18 Tubing - 3 take ~32' of 1-1/2" tubing at $1.70' - $54/3
 $6  Connectors - MC3 connectors are $6 pair not counting shipping
 $3 Foundation - concrete to fill post-holes

So now, not counting paint and electricity for welding - or the small metal pieces I picked up for panel tabs and drill-bits, grinding disks, welding wire and all of the other stuff one needs, I am to $107 for 60W of panel or $1.78/W  with the installation necessities costing near as much as the panels. Especially if one includes an ~$800 crimper suppliers want to sell you to crimp the MC3 fittings. IF one decides to just cut the ends off and direct wire the panels, it voids the warranty. OH, I found one from China on eBay for a lot less, but still not inexpensive.

Still to be purchased will be a $1700 Outback inverter, a $600 MPPT charge controller, ~$500 of wiring and control boxes, ~$400 of batteries and a $500 meter I am required to have to grid-tie all of this mess. This will bring my total to over $9000 for the 3kW of power. I suspect with tracking, this will cost me over $10k.

As I live in North Central Texas, with the average highs last month of over 100F and nighttime lows about 80F or higher, 3kW of panels won't cover my electricity use in the Summer. And, I live in a small place with fairly good insulation.

I plan to update all of this as soon as I get it all installed.

Ron

[Rover]

I purchased some of the Kaneka $0.98?W panels ....

I really appreciate the breakdown to actual costs

But still begs the question... what would your costs have been if you had gone with a more traditional/more expensive panel.. say 2$ a watt ( without shipping) .. do you thing you've made out? in cost comparison?

[Volvo farmer]

Don't forget the 30% federal tax credit in your calculations.  I suppose I'd rather pay taxes so that you can make electricity than pay them so we can blow people up in foreign countries though.

[dnix71]

http://www.solarhertz.com/PV-Tools/MC3-crimping-plier.html  Â£89 here.

Hand crimper for mc3 connectors. You won't have to pay VAT if you live outside the EU but shipping is not included.




http://cgi.ebay.com/MC3-Crimp-Tooling-Crimping-Connector-Solar-Panel-Cable-/120583564935?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools  $98US from China.

[wdyasq]

dnix71 - I found the eBay one and am waiting on a cost shipped from the Franch supplier.

VF, although I don't believe in wealth redistribution as a government policy, I will take the money if they insist ... although I do believe at some time they may 'claim' partial or total ownership of an individual's energy resources.

Rover ... go scratch a flea ... the figures will remain the same with the exception of an additional $1W on the panels and possibly a bit less as I would have purchased 200W or so panels and lowered both tracker/mounting costs and wiring costs. I'll try and 'back out' the panels and figure a cost with conventional panels after I slay this dragon.

Ron

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

although I don't believe in wealth redistribution as a government policy, I will take the money if they insist ... although I do believe at some time they may 'claim' partial or total ownership of an individual's energy resources.

Don't know what it's like where you are but around here (CA, NV, USA) the credit comes with the requirement that the system be installed by a licensed contractor, rather than the homeowner.  That usually costs more than the tax credit is worth.

As for claiming your resources, if the fertilizer hits the ventilator they'll do that whether you took a tax credit or not.  B-b   As with other psychopaths the answer to "Why?" is "Because we can."

[defed]

as far as i understand the federal 30% credit, it requires neither professional install nor grid tie.  now, for me to get a NY state rebate, it requires both.

[SteveCH]

If grid tie, what's with a battery bank? Just for outages? I see one benefit to grid tie, and that's not having to have batteries.

[wdyasq]

If grid tie, what's with a battery bank? Just for outages? I see one benefit to grid tie, and that's not having to have batteries.

I figure I would need about 15kWh of power to keep this small place cool over a full day. Since you don't want to cycle FLA batteries but about 25%, it means I would like to have 60kWh of storage. 60,000Wh/50V= 1200h of batteries. If I use 200Ah 6V batteries, 48 batteries are needed at a $80+ each. That is nearing another $4000 and probably figure they will last 10 years, ~$35 - $40 a month so I could go totally off-grid here.  Well, I would need two more inverters at $1600-$1700 each so I could have 3 Phase power for my tools. Better make that $8,000 additional.

If you would like to furnish the batteries, inverters, funds and time to maintain them Steve, I'll be happy to supply the space and build the racks. Or, if you don't feel like furnishing them, I'll grid-tie.

Ron

[SteveCH]

Still to be purchased will be a $1700 Outback inverter, a $600 MPPT charge controller, ~$500 of wiring and control boxes, ~$400 of batteries and a $500 meter I am required to have to grid-tie all of this mess. This will bring my total to over $9000 for the 3kW of power. I suspect with tracking, this will cost me over $10k.

I was only responding to your original post in which you mentioned needing $400 for batteries. I am admittedly ignorant when it comes to grid-tie, as there is no grid around here or, for that matter, any public utilities of any kind. So, here, off-grid is the only option. From reading [Home Power, etc.] I had gotten the impression that, with grid-tie, people were happily avoiding having to deal with batteries. I am still ignorant, as your original post indicates you need batteries. That is all I meant in my response.

[wdyasq]

Steve,

One has choices, they can direct grid-tie, sans battery, and use the grid as a 'battery'. Or, they can be completely off grid and need a lot of storage. A third option is what I am choosing, I will grid tie and use a small battery bank so I can have refrigerator, freezer and lighting if the power goes out and still be able to use the "Grid" for "storage" and lower my electrical bills, not my electrical costs. I will also be able to use any single phase 120V tools or appliances within the limits of my system as long as the sun shines.

IF one chooses to pure grid tie, when the grid goes down, one has no backup power. The PV array will still be producing, but without the inverters getting a signal from the grid one is shut down. With a small battery bank, and a different style inverter, one can have as much 'backup' as they wish to afford, I will choose enough to easily power my refrigerator and freezer, a bit of lighting, internet and fans.

Eventually, I do plan on an off-grid home. It will require a larger battery bank. It will also have a large wind turbine (by stand-alone, hobby style units) and I will probably use water chilling to store some of the needed energy in this area. The outlay for a true stand alone system will be substantially more. The freedom and attitude will be priceless.

Ron

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Grid tie with batteries can be practical for a number of reasons:

One is battery backup for outages (think "big UPS") plus grid tie for seasonal storage and to feed peak usage beyond the capability of the inverters without adding a genset.  You save several ways:
 - Smaller battery bank, since it only has to cover the load-minus-generation shortfall during grid outages, rather than long periods of no wind and sun.  (Also:  During long outages you can conserve to a level that would be a quality-of-life issue if you had to do it all the time.)
 - Don't need a major genset.
 - If you need a UPS anyhow due to common and long outages, doing it by using a grid-tied RE system rather than a UPS-only system means your RE cost is the price premium for the RE equipment.
That last is a biggie:  Normally an RE system is only cost-effective if grid is not available or the hookup would be a major capital cost, i.e. you're talking new construction in a rural area.  But getting the RE feature as a cost increment over something else you'd need anyhow may push it past breakeven when grid is already hooked up.  (Especially if you can also downsize the storage.)

Grid-tie involves a lot of approvals and design restrictions.  If you have an inverter/battery/RE-charging system you may be able to write the design proposal so only the inverter and the fact that it's connected to batteries is the subject of detailed approval and you can add more battery and generation without additional approvals (provided you stay within the limits for the rate structure).

A third one:  You may get paid different rates at different times.   So run the "sell" at the higher-rate time.  B-)

[DamonHD]

...and if you are wanting to save the planet then you run the 'sell' option when the carbon intensity of grid generation (amount of CO2 per kWh) is highest so as to maximise the amount of CO2 emission you help avoid.  Where I am in the UK, other than in the depths of winter, carbon-intensity varies by about 30% and is lowest at night which I expect to be typical world over where fossil fuels will be used to support peak-time demand.

http://www.earth.org.uk/_gridCarbonIntensityGB.html

Rgds

Damon

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Where I am in the UK, other than in the depths of winter, carbon-intensity varies by about 30% and is lowest at night which I expect to be typical world over where fossil fuels will be used to support peak-time demand.

You don't even need to store it to feed it back later.  Wind and sun together are typically a pretty good match to the variable part of the grid load, which is what gets supplied by fossil-fuel powered "peaking plants" such as gas turbines.