Off Mains linking power sources

[bovril]

I have just purchased a 1KW Micro Wind Turbine ( on a 7.5 metre mast) The purpose is to cut down on the running hours of my 9KW Diesel Generator, by harnessing the wind turbine to my 24V battery pack, which is currently charged via the Diesel Generator and an Outback Inverter. There are 12 Batteries making up the 24V system ( before conversion into 230 via the Inverter)
and in my Wind Turnine kit, I have the Tower, the Turbine, a TristarTS-60 Charge Controller,Dump Load 1KW 24V, a Stop Switch.

The idea, is that when the household ( which has no mains services ) is not using a heavy load, the generator is automatically switched off by the Inverter.  The Wind Generator will then play its part by putting a charge into the Battery Pack. This charge will be regulated and the excess dumped. Importantly,maintaining sufficient power in the Batteries to operate my bore hole pump ( 112m deep )

What I do not have is a wiring diagram for the system ( I can get one for a combined Solar and Wind system ) Next year, I want to add Solar, again to relieve the Diesel generator. Is it possible to use all three to keep my Battery Pack charged? in particular the Wind Turbine, when the Diesel Power switches itself off and the Wind Turbine may still be spinning.

Where can I get a wiring diagram from and how is the excess dumped?

[ghurd]

I don't quite understand the problem.

Typically, the dump controller is connected to the battery, and it does not care where the battery power came from.

Need to be sure the dump load is big enough for the combined wind and solar.
Or can run the solar through a solar controller.

Might have some kind of issues with the inverter/charger playing nice with the TS-60.
If the inverter/charger wants the battery at 14.5V, and the TS-60 wants it at 14.3V, then the controller will be dumping while the charger is charging.
There could be a couple possibilities to stop that situation, like maybe a NC relay in series with the dump load, with the relay coil energized if the inverter/charger is charging.

[bovril]

The main problem is lack of a diagram showing the sequence of connections. Also, to what is surplus charge 'Dumped' Does it go into earth or used for another purpose? Remembering that I know nothing about electrics and will have to employ someone to do the work.

[DanH]

So when the dump load energizes, that can shutdown the diesel using a relay. Trick now is starting it back up.

[bovril]

Well, the Inverter ( and its mini computer the MATE) control switching the remote diesel generator on when the 24v battery pack drops down to about 23V ( as shown on the MATE )  My hope is that the Micro ( 1KW ) wind turbine will put a trickle charge into the battery pack, in particular at night time, when the generator is switched off, but I am unsure how that system will be wired in. With the wind turbine, I purchased a regulator and a dump switch.
Some one on this site has kindly sent me a diagram showing how three different systems ( Diesel generator, Wind turbine and solar panels ) can be linked into my 24V battery pack, with appropriate fuses ,regulator and dump load, which is then converted by my Outback Inverter into 230AC which then runs all the household electrics ( I am not on any mains services )
Are you saying that the dump load switch will cut out my diesel generator and that i would need to restart it manually?

[wpowokal]

He did say the inverter controls the generator already, so best left alone.

allan

[bovril]

At last, my 8 metres high mast is up, ready to be winched down again to accept the 1 kw wind turbine. Problem is, that no electrician wants to tackle the job of wiring up the system.On the look of it, it's a simple job. the battery store and 24V battery bank is in place and being used by the diesel generator and Outback inverter, to run the house electrics ( i am not on the mains/grid ) so certification is not an issue!
The cable runs from the wind turbine, into a trench, 10 metre to the battery pack and fuse box. I have the regulator and dump load switches and the electrician needs to put a fuse between the battery pack and wind turbine, in order to protect against back flow.
 and connect up to the battery pack. I understand all of that and yet know nothing what so ever about electrics . ( I can change a fuse and plug is all )

The Micro Wind Turbine is sitting in my workshop, ever so lonely. Surely there must be some one in the UK who will tackle the job for a fee!

[WindriderNM]

I have built a system like yours, I have diodes between the wind gens and the batteries and between the solar panels and the batteries. Make sure the diodes can handle the voltage and amps from each device. diodes can be connected in parallel, their amp ratings will add. A lot of this is electronics, most electricians  understand electricity not electronics (diodes,transistors, wind gens, ect.) They can also be responsible if something goes wrong or if it doesn't meet code. 
I have  learned a lot from these forms, reading books, and asking questions. You may need to learn basic electronics.















 

[bovril]

Thanks Windrider. I will now look for an Electronics Engineer. I don't think damage can be done to my diesel generator,Inverter and mate, as that is a stand alone system that senses when the battery pack is low on volts.
The wind turbine is being coupled to the battery pack in order to keep a small ( 1Kw ) charge going into the batteries over night. It's where the two systems can safely co-operate that seems to be the problem. If an electronics specialist can fathom that out and provide advice to an electrician, I may make some progress.

[wpowokal]

Let me summarize if I may, your current system consists of a 24V battery bank, inverter/charger and generator, the generator is controlled by the inverter/charger as required.

You want to add a source of power from a wind turbine, it comes with an appropriate controller and dump load, correct me if I am wrong, so the wind turbine is connected to the batteries and charges them when the wind blows, so far so good. This source of charge is not able to be controlled by your inverter so you have been supplied with a Morningstar TS-60 60A controller as part of your wind turbine kit. From the Morningstar site it tells me the controller can operate in one of three modes at a time, you are interested in the dump load mode. You say you have a 1Kw dump load, this dump load is controlled by the Morningstar it is a load which is rated for 1 Kw @ 24V no more no less than a light may be, your controller will send power to this dump load if battery voltage rises above a set level, key point here is battery voltage, the controller will only dump if battery voltage rises above an acceptable level (set I am guessing by the owner within the controller).

You need to seek out a renewable energy company not an electrician, I guess you are in the USA but electricians are probably no different there than here, they specialize, a renewable energy supplier can complete your installation, trying to do it yourself is a recipe for disaster.

I don't know if this helps but!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

allan

[bovril]

Thankyou for that Allan, I have just renewed my lapsed membership with CAT ( Centre for Alternative Technology ) they may well - at a price- be able to send me an expert to advise and draw up a scheme.
Tony

[wpowokal]

Tony I have just looked at the triStar operators manual http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/tristar there is a wiring diagram there.
Have a look at that and come back if some of that is not clear enough, you will be leaving all existing equipment alone and just adding the wind turbine controller and dump load as showen in their diagram.

allan

[Volvo farmer]

Have a look at that and come back if some of that is not clear enough, you will be leaving all existing equipment alone and just adding the wind turbine controller and dump load as showen in their diagram.

allan

That was my guess as to how it should be done as well.  I have both wind and solar and  I just set the dump load way up around 29V so that it never dumps solar.  Seeing as the OP is using more energy than his wind turbine can produce, it is doubtful that he will boil the batteries too badly if he just sets the dump voltage a few tenths above whatever his inverter/charger limits the generator to.

[bovril]

Thankyou Allan and Volvo, Have just opened my Tristar package ( It didn't occur to me to look at the instructions until I had found someone here in rural Herefordshire that would tackle the installation ) on looking at the diagram and taking into account that the installing would need someone Knowledgeble,I will not use an electrician, but some one who has been involved in putting together such a design.

That's now my aim and I will let you know if I find someone.
Tony

[bovril]

Still no closer to getting my wind turbine hooked up. Even a reknowned firm that supplies wind and solar equipment and recommends
taking the pressure off a diesel generator by installing either a wind turbine or solar panel ( or both ) to help charge a 24V battery bank,cannot explain exactly how it's all linked up, without causing damage to the batteries.
Here is me, a complete novice wanting sound advice ( comprehensive instructions and diagrams ) for which I am willing to pay, but the 'Expert ' cannot be found yet.
The Outback Inverter is programmed up to 28.8 Volts but the Tristar for the wind turbine is set at a lower voltage. seems that is the difficulty?
Can anyone put me in touch with the appropriate UK based expert?

[wooferhound]

Here is a very simple basic diagram showing you how to hook it all up . . .

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

So when the dump load energizes, that can shutdown the diesel using a relay. Trick now is starting it back up.

I'd be tempted to run it the other way:  The engine generator, when running, energizes a relay to disconnect the dump load (or its controller), or perhaps drives an "inhibit" control.

The engine generator and associated controller are probably set up on the assumption that they're the primary source of power.  (And even if you have a wind generator the engine generator IS your primary source of power during long calm periods.)  So when they get around to starting they might run long enough to top off the battery and maybe give it a little equalization.  That would bring the voltage up high enough that the dump load controller would come on and try to burn off the power that the generator is making out of your costly fuel AND interfere with the generator's attempt to condition the battery.

But the engine generator will cut off before the cells are damaged by overcharge.  At that point it's fine to let the dump load controller take over.  Sure it burns off the surface charge if it's a calm day, when you could have used that extra bit of power for your loads (or let it diffuse inward to insure the batteries are fully charged deep in the plates).  But if the engine was running it's probably not windy, so the dump load will cut off pretty quick.  Thus it won't cost you a lot of fuel or significantly foul the battery conditioning even in a long dead-calm period.  (Meanwhile, if the wind picked up while the engine was running it just raises the charging rate.  You might outgass a bit extra when that happens, but no big deal.)

Doing it this way means the generator controller won't have to deal with lots of extra starts and stops.  It will see the kind of charging regime it expects and cycle the engine the way it was designed to run.

[birdhouse]

bovril-
i'm in the states, but if you buy me a plain ticket and put me up, i'll do it for free! 

but seriously...  i have a ts-60 and am very familiar with them.  IF you have flooded lead acid batteries, i can see an easy way to hook all this together. 

i'm assuming your outback, and morningstar units have the temperature sensing option.  if not, they can be purchased seperately.  these temp sensors would be mandatory for this idea to work. 

basically, figure out you max voltage that your generator will push your batteries to at a given temperature.  set your ts-60 to a slightly higher voltage via the dip switches within the controller.  this way, the ts-60 will never be dumping your generator power....  something you don't want to burn diesel on, or fry your ts-60 with. 

then when the wind is ripping, it will charge your bank up and keep the generator from kicking on.  and if the wind pushes your batteries to the max voltage set by your ts-60, it will dump excess power accordingly. 

do you equalize your bank with the generator?  if so, you would need to pull the ts-60 out of the equation to do this process. 

the reason flooded acid batteries would be needed for this to work, is flooded batteries can take some higher voltages without going bad, so long as you keep on top of the water levels!!!!  SLA, or VRLA cannot.  for flooded batteries, when the wind is ripping, it would almost be like a slight equalization charge, as the voltage limit for the wind would have to be slightly higher than the generator max voltage, and probably slightly higher than the manufacturers specs for the batteries. 

it might take a little bit of trial and error to get it right, but as long as both controllers are temp compensated, the dump should never come on while the generator is doing it's work. 

the best part is there is still around 20 amps worth of the ts-60 that could be used for solar, so long as an additional or larger dump load was provided. 

does this make any sense?

adam

[bovril]

My grateful thanks to all of you for your advice, it is much appreciated. I contacted the fiirm that provided my wind turbine, who have assured me that the Tristar T-60 can be set at 29V which will be slightly higher than the 28.8V setting for the Inverter.
The engineer that will be -I hope - doing the job is coming this friday and I will go into discussions with him with my knowledge greatly improved, thanks to you learned people on Fieldlines.com