Storage UPgrade...

[TomW]

I mentioned snagging this battery in my addiction ... Diary. I hauled it home today in the '03 Dodge Dakota.

It was a white knuckle 45 mile trip through driving torrential rain on semi busy highway. 

2288# of lead put the squat on the pickup but it did it:






Unloaded it with a neighbors loader.

Here are the innards:





Sure hope it was worth hauling.
.
Note each cell has 4 terminals 2 per polarity connection.

No physical damage visible there is a lot of fibrous crud built up in it from wherever the forklift it came out of was used.

9 cents a pound and I hope it pans out there are enough strong cells for 24 volts. Battery dealer told the owner it had 1 dead cell and 2 wimpy cells that leaves 15 "good" cells. I hope.

Originally a 36 volt 810 AH battery so this just about triples my storage capacity.

Addicts do not know when to quit.

Just to share.

Tom

[Old F]

Truck training 101

Squat truck   

Hope it works out for you Tom.

[Volvo farmer]

Are there bolts underneath some sort of shielding on those buss bars?   Nice "git-r-done attitude". I don't imagine you hurt the truck any and a good nights sleep will help the tension in your shoulders 

[birdhouse]

tom-
that doesn't look "too clapped out" for a dakota!  i thought it would have sunk your rear end way more than that.  good work! 

now i'll bet your sorting to find the best cells. 

good luck!

adam

[DamonHD]

I'm just passing MI6 HQ in London reading your story: look out for black helicopters and jealous secret agents!

Rgds

Damon

[ghurd]

The one cell looks like the + terminals have Red chemically treated fiber washers.
Are you sure all that stuff is just crud build up?

The one with the red washers is probably the newest cell.
Which would line up with my current understanding of long series battery strings, and how the center cells get lazy.
I don't suppose he told you which cells are dead or wimpy?  Interesting to see if they are in the center group.

I am not jealous of moving those things around!
G-

[TomW]

Nature provided a good flush for that battery and I popped the protective covers off the strapping for a look and here is how it looks all uncovered:






Suddenly I am wishy washy on what to ultimately do. I like the outside idea but it gets really cold here some winters and while I read specs for this general battery type that claimed -50F to 140F operating range I would feel more fuzzy if it was in a heated area in winter. Maybe provide a fan to push room air into it in the outside box?

Really no room in the area the other gear is set up.  In fact the outside location will be closer to the main inverter than anywhere inside without a complete reconfiguration of the system already in place including the 1200# can of batteries I use now.

Haven't had time to sort the batteries but the at rest voltage on the string was 36.1 last night and it has not seen use for a week or so since it was tested and set aside.

I haven't set up a test procedure yet still thinking on that. Probably check voltage at rest and mark the lowest 3.  Hook up a couple of strings at 12 volts to charge and test based on higher standing volts per cell. 

Quick once over gives a range of 1.97 to 2.14 volts / cell Lower ones on upper left or negative end of the string. Most cells over 2 volts and a good number over 2.1 volts.

No big hurry unless snow starts to fall.

Just an update.

Thanks for the comments guys.

Tom

[Bruce S]

Tom;
 That is some snag  .
Do you plan to keep the unit in the complete metal container?
I would certainly break up the strings and then ALL sit for a little while (couple days maybe).
That could tell you quick which 2V cells are suspect.
The wimpy ones you could always hook up as a box heater sitting at 6V or 12V if you're worried about freeze problems.
 One of those cheap-O 12Vdc resistive ceramic heater from HF could be used with a remote on/off switch could be useful.

If you haven't found out already; these can go 80% DOD and survive  .

VERY Nice find indeed.
Bruce S
 

[TomW]

Tom;
 That is some snag  .
Do you plan to keep the unit in the complete metal container?
I would certainly break up the strings and then ALL sit for a little while (couple days maybe).
That could tell you quick which 2V cells are suspect.
The wimpy ones you could always hook up as a box heater sitting at 6V or 12V if you're worried about freeze problems.
 One of those cheap-O 12Vdc resistive ceramic heater from HF could be used with a remote on/off switch could be useful.

If you haven't found out already; these can go 80% DOD and survive  .

VERY Nice find indeed.
Bruce S
 

Thanks for the info, Bruce!

I just stripped off all the interconnect hardware.

Seemed a good first step to get it down to the bare cells.

To whoever mentioned it no fuzzy washers on it that fuzz is all some light stuff black as black gets. Very insubstantial which I will clean off later in case it is conductive somehow.

I am leaning towards not using the can itself in the final location as I only need 12 of the 18 cells for 24V and I am trying to sort out removing them with a doctor imposed 50# lifting restriction and what I figure are 120+ #  cells in horizontally. Got a cart once they are out and upright at least.

Only want to place them once wherever they go but I am falling further towards the "inside" but I am fickle.

Thanks for the response.

There was a sticker on the Anderson Power Pole plug it had attached that said:

ATTENTION!!

The Champion Battery requires adjustment of the lift trucks interrupt to at least 1.86 VPC (under load) to assure 80% Discharge.

Not sure what that means exactly but sounds like the want you to get it that low before charging? Seems more likely the "out of gas" point

That translates to 22.32 volts on a 24 volt system. I never go that low or even close.

What is the deal with 2X connections per plate? One connection at either side of a plate? First I have seen with 4 connections on it.

Looks like this now:








Tom

[DamonHD]

Is the fuzzy stuff something like soot or metal filings?

Rgds

Damon

[Bruce S]

Tom;
 I reached out to a forklift truck place 1/2 mile from work. I've been eye balling some of their old batteries 
The repair guy said that what you're seeing is that when using these types, the load can be just like what I see when building NiCds at 12V.
That is the voltage sag that happen, I rebuilt Amy's e-scooter packs for 14.4 so the lag when it's going up a 15% grade hill doesn't sag below the
controller's shutoff point.
You probably won't have to worry unless you're about to pull a 50A initial surge.

Yeah 1.86 sustained would be bad, even for these.
A bit envious right now or you're dilemma, you do know that new this is probably a multi-thousand $$$$.$$ pack right


Cheers
Bruce S

[Bruce S]

Tom:
 Sorry, forgot about the 4-pole interconnect on each one.
This is all they are. Having 2 poles for each + & - means you don't have to have extra cable for each pole.
Less loss using direct connect buss bars. Those I'm told by the recycler have SOLID copper poles inside.
And a good deep charge on the lazy ones should bring them back up. Do a CC charge and let the voltage try to come up to
2.12V then let them sit a full day. They should hold. The recycler says if the cases aren't broken they'll come back up and still be good.
He has a set 9 years old and still as strong as ever tho he's is only 12V and only 450Ah in size.

[TomW]

Skinned the cells out of the can:








Most came out with a firm pull on the bolt on  battery handle gizmo. I killed 3 of them [handles] getting it done.
 
There were a few that were a bit swollen so I needed to use my come along and the pickup bumper to extract them. No brute force just a steady tension and they extracted but it was obvious they were a bit swollen. I marked them all for original position. None of them have any leakage or damage but there are some that are slightly swollen.

The cell number is 625-128B

I cannot find any online info but then Google is not always my friend ;=>

Just updating as I go.

Everything is getting a nice fresh water rinse now. (rain).

No sun but turbines are shoving in from 5 to 50 amps in the winds.

Tom

[ghurd]

Ewww.
If they are swollen, they are toast.
G-

[TomW]

Ewww.
If they are swollen, they are toast.
G-

Maybe, maybe not.

Time will tell.

It will be a demerit on the high grade process of course.

Stop with the negative waves, man.

Its gonna work out fine.

Thats my story and I am sticking with it.


Tom

[TomW]

I numbered the cells from the negative side to the positive side [1 to 18]

Cell voltages were:
#  Voltage

1.   2.09
2.   2.09
3.   1.69
4.   2.10
5.   2.10
6.   0.98 Yikes.
7.   2.10
8.   2.10
9.    2.12
10.   2.15
11.   2.14
12.   1.97
13.   2.10
14.   2.12
15     2.10
16.    2.10
17.    2.09
18.    2.11

I counted 5 obviously bulged cells but not the low volt cells. Not exactly sure what all this means but I think I will get a useable 24 volt bank out of this well worth the $200 and a few days of off and on effort.

I will inspect them closer in good light tomorrow for physical issues.

At least 2 fail outright on voltage and another is nudging the line  so I figure I got 15 voltage OK cells to pick thru.

Tom

[frackers]

Looks as though the dealer played dead straight with one dead and 2 not so hot... Sounds like a guy to go back to!!

[TomW]

Looks as though the dealer played dead straight with one dead and 2 not so hot... Sounds like a guy to go back to!!

Yep, Pat Remis  the owner of Remis Power Systems is a square fellow.

He was the only battery dealer that even responded to email I sent to pretty much every battery dealer / reseller within 200 miles of me asking for a quote on a new bank when my Trojans gave up the ghost. Guess who I bought my new and pricey DEKA battery bank from? It is kind of silly how many businesses have a website that they do not check or take email from potential customers seriously.

Remis is near Onalaska, Wisconsin and his website is here:

http://www.remispowersystems.com/

I recommend him with no reservations. Don at 7 Rivers Surplus where I got the battery had him check it out before he decided to sell it rather than keep it in the lift truck. I trust either to be honest and direct.

It is nice to deal with decent, honest people. And I think that is one of the main criteria for who I do business with.

Thanks for the response.

Tom

[Bruce S]

Maybe, maybe not.

Time will tell.

Tom

Tom;
Got more info for ya.
You can actually take the top valve off. May not look that way but you can. They either twist off or pop off.
This big ones actually do better on their sides. AND if dry you can add distilled water.
Swelling may not be a big deal, its the voltage on them that will count.

I can post the long bring back of these here or PM you if you'd like. IF no cell are lower than 1.86V then you should be able to get 80% or better back in storage density BTW these are 890Ahr cells and the number is the serial number of the cells.
Probably won't find anything online, but you should be able to call GNB rep and get something.

WHO pulled these? come-along or HE-MAN

Cheers
Bruce S

[TomW]

WHO pulled these? come-along or HE-MAN

Cheers
Bruce S

Bruce;

Well, only about 6 or 7 needed the come along the others I just put my considerable bulk into play. Hence the busted straps.

Take a death grip and get my mass moving and most stuff follows. 

I learned on their sides you have to pull inline with the "box" or it binds and takes more effort.

I built a simple plank ramp to each level slid them out then down the incline as I lifted the top upright.

Then walked them on the cart then rolled to the staging area with plywood under it so gravel couldn't damage the cases.

I see that round cap one looks lifted.

Note that case has pigeon holes 9 in all 2 cells each so now I wonder if I can lay them on their sides like they came 6 wide and 2 deep with no support between? I figure that pack was built for severe mobile duty for a Caterpillar lift truck so sitting fixed 2 deep would be fine.

Just wanna do it right. Would rather not have to put the box inside when I only need 12 of the 18 it is built for.

Tom

Appreciate your input.

Tom

[SparWeb]

Tom,

NICE SCORE!

Here's a link that might help:

http://industrialenergy.exide.com/products/range_select.asp?range=GP&sub_id=17&lng=en&cl=np_brands

The GNB brand got sucked into Exide a while ago.
Those batteries are cousins of the set I have.

Don't open the vent unless you have recently charged them and then let them sit for 24 hours.  Losing any vapour from the vent is a permanent loss.  There are some guys that post regularly on wind-sun.org forum experimenting with re-watering their GNB batteries but I'm waiting for some longer term results before doing the same for mine.

The batteries normally stay on their sides.  The glass-mat will stratify if they have their terminals up.  Storing them standing up is probably fine - but charging and draining over and over isn't.

The operating and performance manuals for these batteries give a very long life.  They do state a design life of 20 years, but the usage limit is in cycles, not years, implying they will never wear out if cared for.  This is surprising considering the usual advice given for lead-acid batteries.

Considering that each cell is worth several hundred dollars, congratulations!

[Bruce S]

Here's a link that might help:

http://industrialenergy.exide.com/products/range_select.asp?range=GP&sub_id=17&lng=en&cl=np_brands


Don't open the vent unless you have recently charged them and then let them sit for 24 hours.  Losing any vapour from the vent is a permanent loss.  There are some guys that post regularly on wind-sun.org forum experimenting with re-watering their GNB batteries but I'm waiting for some longer term results before doing the same for mine.

Sparweb;
That's the same website our battery recycler told me about!!  .
There is supposed to be a guy on there from the company that did the IVOR <-sp? process.
I sent an email to him referencing both Tom's stuff and the other website.
 Battery guy has added distilled water to his with no problem. I am headed out to his area this weekend ( Trying out a Harley from Nephew ) Will see if I can take pics & maybe do some horse trading. Some times it actually helps to have friends in low places.
 

TOM
What SW said about them sitting straight up is correct. Makes sense about them being too big for vapor to "wick" back up.
Don't know that I would cut up the pigeon hole though. Certainly would not stack them on top one another

They do have a little bit of Cadmium in them so NO uncovered finger testing on the fluids.
The one with the popped vent has gased. My bet it is one that has a low reading.
POSTING This link "http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=4624&highlight=absolyte&page=2" might get me into trouble with the MODs  .
But the very guy I sent the email off to is on that page.
 
Bruce S

[TomW]

Well, I laid down a rubber mat cut to size for a base and a thermal break from the concrete floor. My photo of the mat did not come out but the photo of the first six on the mat did:



I discovered that most [all] the "bulging" is simply the plastic ballooned out and not the innards swelling and pushing the plastic out.

Must be some pressure in them and not the plates causing the swelling.

That is my observation so far handling the first 6.

If that makes sense?

I decided to place them in with the opposite side down from their position in the original pack at least where the polarity would work for easy connecting like it was to start. A couple in each layer will be the same as they were in the original pack.

From my reading in one of the links provided by Spar or Bruce I deduced it may allow the "vapor" to redistribute better.

I intend to build a support system for the second layer to help keep the load off the lower row.

More as I go.

Tom

[DamonHD]

I continue to be consumed by jealousy.

I may be forced to stump up real money on kWhs of LiFePO batteries to maintain my manliness.  B^>

Rgds

Damon

[TomW]

And after all that here is what I ended up with:

.
Just a share

I will post pics when I get the bus covers in place so folks don't tell me how dangerous all that exposed live metal is.

BTW those straps are tinned copper. Had to drill one and it is pretty hard for copper. Initially I thought they were lead but they are not

Tom

[Bruce S]

TomW;
 Very nice set.
As I look at them more and more and how easy the bus-bars connect up; I may start building the NiCd packs with dual lead connections similar to the way these are done. It would seem that connecting them up for higher voltages will be easier.
My packs will not even come close to the density of these.

Do you plan on making a lower 12V set from the other 6/9? with one of G's dump controllers you could have one heck of a dump load 
Or are the rest still showing low voltages?

Cheers;
Bruce S
 

[TomW]

TomW;
 Very nice set.
As I look at them more and more and how easy the bus-bars connect up; I may start building the NiCd packs with dual lead connections similar to the way these are done. It would seem that connecting them up for higher voltages will be easier.
My packs will not even come close to the density of these.

Do you plan on making a lower 12V set from the other 6/9? with one of G's dump controllers you could have one heck of a dump load  
Or are the rest still showing low voltages?

Cheers;
Bruce S
 

No further tests yet.  Too busy right now but they will go inside to sit til I get some time to fool with them.

Got 3 with sub normal voltages one real low and 3 that were only a couple hundred milivolts lower than the ones I used. 2.09 per cell.last test on 3.

Tom

[freejuice]

Green pure green I am...envy that is

[SparWeb]

Bruce:
The guys on that forum are talking about "IOVR" or some such.  It's just a brand name for a product they sell.  They are selling catalyst caps that promise to do a bit of house-cleaning, but you have to crank the voltage up on the cells a bit over the manufacturer's recommended values.  Guys on wind-sun are trying 29V or so (2.42 volts/cell) to equalize from time to time.  Time will tell if they have problems because of this, or they really do extend the life as they believe. 

Tom:
If you try the over-voltage process you may void the manufacturer's warranty!   

I noticed the other day that my stack was a fair bit warmer on the top than the bottom.  Maybe I never checked before but I don't think I ever noticed that before.  Mine are stacked 4 rows high.  Lots of implications to this.  I'm thinking of exchanging all of the cells top-to-bottom just to even out the degradation of life on the top row. 

[Bruce S]

Bruce:
The guys on that forum are talking about "IOVR" or some such.  It's just a brand name for a product they sell.  They are selling catalyst caps that promise to do a bit of house-cleaning, but you have to crank the voltage up on the cells a bit over the manufacturer's recommended values.  Guys on wind-sun are trying 29V or so (2.42 volts/cell) to equalize from time to time.  Time will tell if they have problems because of this, or they really do extend the life as they believe. 

Tom:
If you try the over-voltage process you may void the manufacturer's warranty!   

I noticed the other day that my stack was a fair bit warmer on the top than the bottom.  Maybe I never checked before but I don't think I ever noticed that before.  Mine are stacked 4 rows high.  Lots of implications to this.  I'm thinking of exchanging all of the cells top-to-bottom just to even out the degradation of life on the top row. 

Sparweb:
Yep, I know. The guy in the link does work for the company and he's up front about it all, even showed the price.
The guy posting has been very careful and posting his info.
Once I hear back from the guy who helped develop the device for sale, I will post here.
If he's not true or doesn't seem honest, I'll certainly post that as well.
EPS (Engineered Power Systems) company has an office right across street from us, I will also talk with them about both the company and the batteries to see what they have to say.
Our battery guy (Batteries Plus) employee, uses them and he's never "fluffed me" in the 11 years I've known him.

Cheers;
Bruce S
 

[dapdan]

Spar, Bruce,

I am the guy that started that thread last year(09) Mar after I got a free set of these Absolyte batteries. When I fully charged them and let them rest for 24hrs the highest voltage on any cell was 2.09v. I thought that there had to be a way to improve upon this. That is when I did my research and found the IVOR process. I posted my results when ever I could for the benifit of others. Peter Demars contact me on the forum and later by email and phone for the simple need to learn of my experiences with a process he discovered and developed with others. I can say the Pete is truely a sincere and kind guy. His company perform this process for many commercial, industrial companies and even the military. He has advised me and even shipped material and equipment to me to assist me in my endeavours at no cost to me (and I live in Barbados in the West Indies). The catalyst caps are manufactured by a company called Philadelphia scientific and are recommended to maintain the improvement of capacity after the completion of the IOVR process. I am not sure how much time you guys would need to have past but more than 1.5years later my now 12yrs batteries are still going strong and was running my entire house 24/7 since then up until I moved them to replace with a large bank and I currntly use them as a back up. I now have 24 absolyte 100A27 cells (1300Ah @ 8hr to 1.75vpc) that I am about to do the same thing with. "I ain't sheered or nuttin' " to quote another member, since I got them for free. 

I want to emphasize here that it is important for these cells to be physically restrained by there meet casing. It is needed to keep the electrolyte soaked cloth pressed against the lead plate so that the reacting may take place effectilvely. If not you will immediately lose capacity. SO PUT THEM BACK IN ASAP. I can post white paper when manufactures have tested this fact and concluded that it is necessary. In fact the first generation of the absolytes did not have a metal divided between cell 1&2 and cell 2&3. Following the testing they did and subsequent discovery of this fact the next generation of the Absolytes casing had a pair of dividing metal partitions installed into the redesign casing to ensure each cell had adequate external compression.

I hope this helps, if not you know where to find my thread on the wind-sun forum.

Cheers...
Damani

[dapdan]

Guys,

Here are some pics of my batteries:


Cheers...
Damani

[TomW]

dapdan;

Thanks for this great heads up. I did read that thread Bruce or Spar linked to.

I am stripping it now and hope I can get them back in some were pretty tough to extract but there is no way I could do anything with it intact.

I do not see any numbers on top of the cells just GNB and ++. There are  numbers on the bottom sides which I think I posted in here someplace. I will check them again as I handle them.

Thanks again.

Tom