Wounded 48v Absolyte Telcom bank for free, blessing or curse?

[joe4324]

It has been a while since I last posted, I've been busying trying to get my homestead ready for the impending winter.  My uncle is replacing his battery bank because a couple months ago he noticed it not holding a charge properly,  He had his battery guy come out and determined the bank was dying and fast.   Apparently they had been getting to hot in the nevada sun despite having a insulated shed with a cooler to house them.    Apparently some of the cells actually swelled and bulged the casings a little.   So now he is having trouble keeping them as charged as they should.  56Volts seems to be as high as he can get them even with the generator when before they could go as high as 62v?  (I think don't quote me)  Anyway apparently he has 9 dead or dying cells in the whole bank.   He is having a new bank built and in a few months when we does the switch he is giving me the old bank if I want it.
Here are the stats on his bank as it sits:

They are this type: http://www.solarelectricsupply.com/Batteries/GNB-Absolyte-IIP/index.html

Absolyte 2p 2v sealed industrial/telcom cells (these specific 2p cells are no longer sold, they are the old style from a few years back and no longer listed)
48v bank
1000Ah (when new, now who knows?)
6 years old, used off-grid to power house with automatic generator backup in southern Nevada, 3Kwh Solar system, puts out 18-20Kwh in summer per day and 20-22Kwh in winter.

Despite getting to hot apparently I think they have been well cared for, professionally maintained/monitored.  Despite a mishap a couple years ago where my uncle pulled a small 24V load (pump) on half the bank which imbalanced them a bit but apparently bounced back after a few equalizations.

So this is a big bank by my standards, it weights about 2800lbs with the racks.  I  could never afford a bank new of this type, new price ranges from 10-14,000 I believe.   They are rated for up to and over 20 years when well cared for (so I am told).


So they are mine for the taking... sounds pretty sweet right?  BUT there is a catch...

I have to drive 5,000 miles round trip to get them (maybe on waste cooking oil to cut the expense way down if I finish converting the truck).


So, thats a big catch... I can swing the time/cost to getting them, but I've never worked with this type of battery and don't well know how long they will last.   Giving my estimated needs at my homestead this bank originally is twice as big as I was planing on getting and likely 3x bigger than I would have wound up with.  I have been unable to find some NiFe cells to play with and because of possibly getting rejected for the home-owner tax rebate I thought I was getting.  So the system I would really likely wind up with at this point is 8 new 6v cells (trojan L16 style) but probably a little cheaper (exides...   Because I can get them for around 3,000$ new and that really is about all I can afford I suspect.

I had wanted to go 48V on the bank, to get the most out of the charge controller and most AC charge out of the inverter.   Assuming I couldn't repair any of these 2v cells and I had to cut the bank in half to a 24V system.  It still sounds like it could be a better/bigger/longer lived bank than even getting 8 new budget 6v deep cycles.

So the question is what do I do? 

Would you go and get them?   What pitfalls could I face that I might not know about?

[DanG]

Let them go - over-temperature is one thing, but getting juiced with normal charging current while over-temped is likely to have reduced plate contact area considerably and left burned spots in the void pockets that will never heal.

That is a alot of mileage but if you're going there anyway in the next six or nine months you could do a TomW : ) and salvage the good cells for a 12V or 24V string, have your uncle vet the cells and sell the bad ones to the scrap dealer.

[bob g]

odds are they are all at end of life

telecom batteries while good for 20 years are only good for short cycling and only a few of those over the expected
20 year lifespan

if he used them fairly deep  50 or more times and they have been in a very hot climate, my bet is they will be soon to fail
one by one.

if you can get them for free and don't have to transport them huge distances, perhaps as stated a 24volt bank can be put together
and it might be that you cold get a few more years out of them.

i would sort out a 24 volt string from the best of them, and also keep as many of the rest that look decent to use as replacements
as the others fail.

i would not expect more than a few more years in any case, but at a cost of "zip" they might be worth the investment of your time
and the gas to go get them?

bob g

[joe4324]

I didn't talk to the 'battery dude' my uncle has come out once a year for a checkup personally.  I'm only hearing my uncles rendition, that 9 of them are weak/dying due to heat with bulging cases.   I feel that aside from the obvious heat issue which was brought up as a explanation when they started to die off by the battery dude they have been fairly well cared for overall as far as charging goes.  Considering they are 6 years old or so I would be surprised if they didn't have more than 50 deep cycles on them,   I'm assuming deep means down to 50% SOC?   I doubt these batteries have been below 48volts more than a few times a year max, even with a load as they are set to automatically charge by generator.  But I'm sure they have been charged while being pretty hot if thats what caused the cases to flex.

I have mixed feelings about it.  This is a hell-of-a-big battery.  And I need batteries!  I used to lust after them once my uncle got them for a steal and now they could be mine, all mine! muwah ha! ha!

But seriously,  I'm using 4 leaky/apparently dead 6v rolls for all of my storage and I've been using them for over 2 years now.  I need an upgrade it sounds that even these wounded telcoms (would you call these telcom? based on the website?) would be a vast improvement over what I have.  VAST.  So I'm at a loss,  I was planing on going out there this winter but not by truck...  So I'm not sure where to go from here.  I don't think I can have any testing done remotely besides things you can do with a voltmeter while they are inuse.

what to do...

[bob g]

are the batteries sealed lead acid cells? or agm's

either will swell the case with normal pressures

going down to 48volts on a 48volt battery bank is well below 50% state of charge on a lead acid battery
49.6 volts is about 50% state of charge,

in any event you may come out with enough to make a 24volt set, and from the sounds of things, life with the tired
rolls batteries has been no picnic either?

if you can manage getting them, why not give it a try?

they may get you by for a couple more years? if so then they might be worth your effort?
only you would know what your time is worth, factored against the value of a couple years use.

bob g

[joe4324]

they are AGM,  this is what the website says about them:

"GNB Absolyte IIP Industrial Sealed Battery

The Absolyte battery was developed by GNB in conjunction with Sandia National Laboratories. This was the first VRLA, large capacity, deep cycle battery for photovoltaic applications. This design provides for extended partial state-of-charge operation and allows for deep discharge recovery. Their wide band of temperature operation, from -40°C (-40°F) to +50°C (122°F) retains more capacity in cold temperatures than traditional flooded batteries. Life expectancy in float condition is 20 years @ 25°C (77°F) with proper charging. Life expectancy in cycling conditions is 1200 cycles to 80% DOD with proper charging. Sealed cells with absorbed glass mat (AGM) separators eliminate the need for periodic water additions as found in flooded cells. Periodic visual inspections, voltage readings, and connection retorquing are all that is required."


It sounds pretty bad,  If they are rated for 1200 cycles to 80%,   It has been 1800-2000 days since they went into service and I'm sure they have been discharged deeper than 80% (assuming 80% of full,  not 80% of capacity)

[bob g]

80% DOD means that the batteries are rated to 1200cycles with the batteries being drained to 20% of capacity
basically you use the top 80% of the capacity.

that in my opinion is a pretty good battery, and i would not write them off for having swollen cases, nor would i
give up on not being able to add water, usually you can work the caps off, fish out the check valves and carefully
add a bit of distilled water to each cell..

if the cells are swollen but can be pressed in with your hand then it is likely they are just holding some pressure, if
on the other hand they are swollen and feel hard as a rock, they are likely either junk or soon will be.

bob g

[TomW]

if the cells are swollen but can be pressed in with your hand then it is likely they are just holding some pressure, if
on the other hand they are swollen and feel hard as a rock, they are likely either junk or soon will be.

bob g

That is what I found with these:



Hard to Extract from the can and several were bulged. It turns out they just had a touch of pressure in them and no mechanical swelling from the plates or other innards.

Ended up with this 24 volt 810 AH bank with 3 extra usable cells and 3 less that good cells from an original 36 volt bank.



Since GNB / Absolyte are top of the line units I would not write them off until I tested them.

I have a Diary on this recent project that folks posted some very good links to recovering and reconditioning these. Luckily, I had plenty of good cells to get to 24 volts.

http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,144104.0.html


Tom

[Bruce S]

Joe;
  There is a very good thread going on in the diaries section for TomW.
These are very good batteries to have.
Couple things you may need to consider.
1)Can your truck safely handle #2800 lbs for that distance.
2)can YOU move 130lbs of battery for each of these? Without blowing a disk out ?
3)What is to cost round trip if you had to use dino-D? and can you obtain a full set of NEW batteries for this amount of $$$.
4) Is it possible for your uncle to hold on to these until you can come get them.

Batteries:
I too don't believe these could be bad just because they are bulged out. The ones that are showing low could've dried out in the hot NV weather.
So they may be okay in a better climate. 1000Ahr is a whole bunch of power to be wasted, I'd hate to say no to them if the numbers show its cost worthy.
Have a good read on TomWs postings.

Best of luck
Bruce S
 

[joe4324]

I was tentatively planning a trip out there this winter already.  But I was planning on taking my veggie-Mercedes.  I have oil hook ups in Denver.  I have a Ram 3500 Dually flatbed 5.9L Cummins.  It gets 17-19mpg unloaded on the highway (depending on speed)   Its 5,000 miles round trip for me.  My cost for taking the car would be a $100 bucks total.  Thats two oil changes and a armload of veggie filters.  (not counting tire wear etc etc).   Taking the truck would be a thousand dollars IF I don't convert it.   If I convert it I can take 350 Gallons of veggie oil with me.  And it would cost probably the same $100 bucks.

My other option is to pull a trailer behind the car.  The mercs are heavy the one I would take weights 4600lbs,  I'd give it new brakes and a good go over.  But I feel 3,000lbs is the max I would feel comfortable towing.  Top speed would be 55mph max.   The cost of buying a trailer for the car+reese is probably the same as converting the truck and taking that.   I'm leaning towards converting the truck which I've wanted to do anyway for some time.

What is the scrap price for batteries right now,  assuming worst case scenario that most of these batts are dead or soon will be?   

I really appreciate all the input you guys,  Sorry this post is mostly me just thinking out-loud.    I'm pretty dead set on getting them either way just to figure out how to get them.

Its really re-assuring to hear that these might actually pull a good 24v bank of respectable size.  I was reading the 80% DOD incorrectly,  if they are rated to 1200 cycles I'm willing to bet they have a fraction of that many deep discharges.   Maybe only a couple-few hundred maximum.

[Bruce S]

Well;
 I own a '83 MB 300TD I can say they are a bit heavy ,but sure ride nice  . Mine is not a full out WVO greaser like others, I use Bio-D I produce or buy when findable & being lazy, usually findable for a minor cost plus oil swap .

My 0.002 worth, convert the truck!! and be ready for winter anyway.
You're going to do it one day or the other, so this might as well be the better reason to.

Last RAM 3500 I helped with had some problems with crap in the bottom of his tank that showed up at a bad time. Seems his has a low spot that didn't get cleaned very well. clogged up in a whole mess of places.
It take it you're running more than one tank, are you mixing or running pre-heated WVO and straight Dino-D in standard tank(s)?
 
Recycling the batteries might be a little harder if the recycler knows what he's getting.
These, if they are the real old ones, could have a little bit of Cadmium in them, if so.. might be a small problem.

Best of Luck
Bruce S

[dnix71]

Those batteries were made to be mounted on a side. If you mount them straight up the electrolyte doesn't wick to the top properly. You might ask your uncle to physically rotate the batteries to side mount if he hasn't done so, and if he has, then rotate them 90 degrees around the small dimension and try charging them again, then rotate them again and charge them again.

One of the guys on the forum said he has been able to unscrew the vent plug and add distilled water. You might try that, too, before making a 5k mile round trip.

[joe4324]

Well;
 I own a '83 MB 300TD I can say they are a bit heavy ,but sure ride nice  . Mine is not a full out WVO greaser like others, I use Bio-D I produce or buy when findable & being lazy, usually findable for a minor cost plus oil swap .

My 0.002 worth, convert the truck!! and be ready for winter anyway.
You're going to do it one day or the other, so this might as well be the better reason to.

Last RAM 3500 I helped with had some problems with crap in the bottom of his tank that showed up at a bad time. Seems his has a low spot that didn't get cleaned very well. clogged up in a whole mess of places.
It take it you're running more than one tank, are you mixing or running pre-heated WVO and straight Dino-D in standard tank(s)?
 
Recycling the batteries might be a little harder if the recycler knows what he's getting.
These, if they are the real old ones, could have a little bit of Cadmium in them, if so.. might be a small problem.

Best of Luck
Bruce S

I have a 84' 300D and a 82 and 81 240D 4spd.  Yeah thats three running cars... what can I say I'm from the mid-west.. and they were cheap/freebies! what am I supposed to do?  "No sir, I don't want to pay very little for a car that runs, and can run on free fuel"  hell no, I take it!    I'm a lifer,  the only way I'll drive something different is if I find a more DIY friendly and fuel-compatible car.      I have cold weather WVO systems on them.  I was unhappy with the kits online so I made my own based on parts my friend makes custom in Denver.  I can run 100% wvo,  5 minutes after the car is started when it is 10 degrees outside. I start and stop the car on pure Dino-D.   The other benefit to my systems is that I use unfiltered grease.   My tanks are easy to clean (ammo cans!) and I use very inexpensive filters that only cost $7 to change every 800-1400 miles and it saves me the hassle of having to pre-filter.

I could talk about this for hours, i've been doing it for years and only find myself falling more and more into it.   I'm in the process of converting my Lister motor on my generator set to WVO now.  I go through a lot of nitrile gloves...


I'm leaning towards converting the truck and fixing it up.  either taking that to nevada OR flying out on behalf of a friend who wants a southern truck buying one for him and driving it back.

You think it would be hard to recycle/salvage the dead cells? I was hoping to get a little income from the dead ones to help subsidize the trip some long after the fact.  I had heard that a while back junk batteries had been pretty valuable...?

[Bruce S]

The 84 would be nice. That was the 1st year they had hydraulic lifters. Sure would beat popping the valve cover off and doing the once a year lifter adjustments . FREE is good. Call it active recycling
"Lifer" and AMMO cans , to me means ARMY my 2nd MOS was 63H20.
Since this is the "transportation" part of the forum and I know the moderator  is keenly interested.
You can elaborate more about your WVO pre-heating and filtering system. Pictures too would be nice  .
This information can be directly used for Lister types.
HF and I are on 1st name basis, they have the Nitrile gloves on sale alot, I like to keep a handful of them with me.

The salvage batteries "could" be a problem IF they have Cadmium in them. I would ask for serial numbers or whatever type numbers you can obtain from the individual cells just to check and make sure. Other than that they should bring a nice small amount of change for each one.
 

[dapdan]

Hey Joe,

I am that guy the removed the vent and hydrated my Absolyte cell with great success. The process is called IOVR+. I have extensively posted my result on another forum, here is the link to that thread:

http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=4624&highlight=absolyte+rest+voltage

What I have noticed about you pics is that the steel cases are missing. The steel cases are an integral part of the battery. It compresses the internals of the cell to keep the electrolye soaked cloth pressed against the lead plates so that the electrochemical reaction may take place effeciently. The cells are regulated at 5psi to maintain this internal compression with help of the rigid steel walls of the metal casing. If there is no metal casing the cells would buldge (as you have explained) under the internal pressure of internal gas that result under normal charging and discharging cycles. In short you need to put them back in their steel casing to be able to recover some of the capacity. I would not give up either since 7 years is not long. I have recovery the same type of cell that were manufactured in 1998 and they are still going strong today. I am now in the process of the of doing the same with some that were manufactured in 1995.

The cell you have there are the 100A19 cells that are 900Ah to 1.75vpc at 8hr. At 20 hr they are 1040Ah. If you look closely on the top of the cell you will see a code (letters and numbers) if you post that code I can tell you when and where they we manufacuted.

Cheers...
Damani

[TomW]

Hey Joe,

I am that guy the removed the vent and hydrated my Absolyte cell with great success. The process is called IOVR+. I have extensively posted my result on another forum, here is the link to that thread:

http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=4624&highlight=absolyte+rest+voltage

What I have noticed about you pics is that the steel cases are missing. The steel cases are an integral part of the battery. It compresses the internals of the cell to keep the electrolye soaked cloth pressed against the lead plates so that the electrochemical reaction may take place effeciently. The cells are regulated at 5psi to maintain this internal compression with help of the rigid steel walls of the metal casing. If there is no metal casing the cells would buldge (as you have explained) under the internal pressure of internal gas that result under normal charging and discharging cycles. In short you need to put them back in their steel casing to be able to recover some of the capacity. I would not give up either since 7 years is not long. I have recovery the same type of cell that were manufactured in 1998 and they are still going strong today. I am now in the process of the of doing the same with some that were manufactured in 1995.

The cell you have there are the 100A19 cells that are 900Ah to 1.75vpc at 8hr. At 20 hr they are 1040Ah. If you look closely on the top of the cell you will see a code (letters and numbers) if you post that code I can tell you when and where they we manufacuted.

Cheers...
Damani

Damani;


I think I am the only one with pictures posted in this thread?

Interesting information and I guess I should get them in the case ASAP which is a lot of effort but worth ensuring they are properly installed.

If it is my setup you are commenting on I would very much appreciate if you would visit my Diary and comment there and we could continue this there without diverting this thread.  My Diary on it is over here:

http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,144104.0.html

Thanks.

Tom

[dapdan]

Tom,

My apologies, you are right it was your pics. I have already visited your diary and posted my comments.

Cheers...
Damani

[dnix71]

DanDan, I was thinking the steel case mattered, too. That physical style of battery is used in fork lifts. They need that steel case to maintain integrity upright.

[TomW]

DanDan, I was thinking the steel case mattered, too. That physical style of battery is used in fork lifts. They need that steel case to maintain integrity upright.

nix;

These were mounted on their sides.

Tom

[Bruce S]

Hey Joe,

I am that guy the removed the vent and hydrated my Absolyte cell with great success. The process is called IOVR+. I have extensively posted my result on another forum, here is the link to that thread:

http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=4624&highlight=absolyte+rest+voltage

What I have noticed about you pics is that the steel cases are missing. The steel cases are an integral part of the battery. It compresses the internals of the cell to keep the electrolye soaked cloth pressed against the lead plates so that the electrochemical reaction may take place effeciently. The cells are regulated at 5psi to maintain this internal compression with help of the rigid steel walls of the metal casing. If there is no metal casing the cells would buldge (as you have explained) under the internal pressure of internal gas that result under normal charging and discharging cycles. In short you need to put them back in their steel casing to be able to recover some of the capacity. I would not give up either since 7 years is not long. I have recovery the same type of cell that were manufactured in 1998 and they are still going strong today. I am now in the process of the of doing the same with some that were manufactured in 1995.

The cell you have there are the 100A19 cells that are 900Ah to 1.75vpc at 8hr. At 20 hr they are 1040Ah. If you look closely on the top of the cell you will see a code (letters and numbers) if you post that code I can tell you when and where they we manufacuted.

Cheers...
Damani

Damani;
 Thanks for jumping in to help.
I don't like giving out names without permission. A hard liner Re guy (works for MGE) also calls these golden, won't even let me have any of his castoffs  .
Glad to read over in Tom's post that yours are still going strong!!
Cheers
Bruce S

[joe4324]

These batteries are mounted on their sides as well.    I'm going to get some picture for you guys as soon as I can.

[TomW]

These batteries are mounted on their sides as well.    I'm going to get some picture for you guys as soon as I can.

Joe;

Sorry if I / we kind of took over your post. A lot of good information has been posted here, tho!

I, for one, have learned a good bit about them.

Yeah, pictures are good!

Tom