Dejected

[JoeD.]

   Yesterday I decided to connect my 12 volt inverter to the battery set I have and see what I could power up in the house. I have a Coleman pmp3000~6000 watt peak. Modified Sine. Used, from Ebay.

   Digital readout input voltage and wattage output. I'm running it off of 2 big Exide 80-D batteries. Each battery is direct connected to the input lugs on the inverter.  Kinda cobbled up input wiring. I have 10 gauge 18 strand cable from one battery to the inverter, and heavy welding cable connecting the other battery to the inverter. I kept chargers going on the batteries as this testing was in progress. The 10 gauge cable cut down on available power, I could tell.

I did all this testing thru a 50' heavy extension cord- don't know the wire gauge thru the cord.

  Previously, I had bought one of the digital voltage/amperage/watt meters from Harbor Freight. I checked the power consumption of various items in the house and made a list of what I'd need. Their meter doesn't give instantaneous results, so you can't really get a true feeling for what the appliance is going to draw upon startup.

  Fridge=1.80 A @ 220 watt;
 Deep Freeze= 1.55 A @ 178 watt
Sump pump= 6.89 A @ 850 watt
Empty Washer=9 A @ 1000 watt
Gas Dryer= 4 A @ 400 watt
Computer= 79 watt
Big electric fan= 180 watt
1500 watt electric oil filled radiator= 3 position switch= 600 watt, 900 watt, and on high 1450 watt

  When I plugged the fridge in, it started it right up. Deep freeze, too. Washer or dryer- either one -would trip the protective circuit on the inverter as soon as I hit the start button. . The sump pump would start, but on a much shorter extension cord. The TV would come right on, but with just a hint of fuzz on the screen.

Computer wouldn't do anything, and would make the inverter go into some sort of protective mode and give an audible warning as soon as you plugged the thing into the inverter!

  I plugged the oil filled heater in directly to the inverter as it sets in the garage. The inverter took that in stride. It only gave a low input voltage warning as the batteries dropped down to near 10.5 volts. If I turned the battery charger on, the added 20 amps they were putting out would end the low-batt warning. 

  I could understand the sump pump not starting because it was starting under a load. I don't understand the washer and dryer causing the thing to go into protective mode. It has 2 or 3 different protective modes as indicated by a color changing LED and a chirping noise.

  Maybe this inverter has problems? Might need a true sinewave inverter to run the computer. The TV was an older picture tube type TV, not a new LCD type tv. Not sure how one of them would do.

  I guess I will go and make a good set of cables to connect the batteries to the inverter and try it all again. I was just dejected that this 3000/6000 surge watt inverter wouldn't start the basic appliances like the dryer, when it would start one with a compressor?  I was doing all these one at a time, not in combination.....

 

[SteveCH]

Do the washer and dryer motors need a high surge at start? Just mulling it over here.

Our home is run off a modified sine wave inverter and has been for 20+ yr. I'd like to have a pure sine but the cost is prohibitive to us right now. However, we have five Mac computers and have never had a problem with the inverter power. Ours is a good quality inverter [Trace] but definitely modified sine wave. So I don't know what your problem could be. It is probably good that you can't use it as it is obviously not happy with the juice you offer it. I only know about the Apple brand, however, and have never had anything else. My wife uses a Dell laptop for work at home, and she has no problem with it.

[WindriderNM]

A lot of AC motors don't like modified sine wave. I test a lot of used electronic equip. to sell on ebay, some of it won't work with my inverter, some hums, and others work fine. You also may have problems if you try to connect it to your house elect box (see post in Newbies July 13, 2010, 07:50:00 PM). I have had some drill battery charges that won't work and other that do from the same co. different models. My LCD TV works fine. I have a portable cooler that worked when turned on but got hot and turned black around the controls when turned off. Modified sine wave does strange stuff.

[JoeD.]

Yeah, it baffles me about the dryer and the computer.

  There is really no big load on the dryer motor. Not quite sure about the washing machine, but at 9 amps/1000 watts agitating water, I suppose that is some draw, but at 3000 watts this inverter should knuckle down and start either one of them. Both of these are at least 15 years old and are bottom of the line Sears units, so no fancy electronics here. These are one step above taking my clothes down to the creek and beating them on a rock!

 As soon as you connect the power strip that the computer, flat screen monitor, modem and printer are powered by- it makes a crazy beeping/buzzing [the inverter does] and none of them make an effort to start up or light up.

  I just got back from getting some lengths of #4 and #2 cable and am going to rig something up to try to start the stubborn appliances up once and for all.

  Like I said, the inverter was used off of ebay and possible something is wrong with it, but since it ran that radiator style heater OK, I just can't help but think something else is wrong, not just too much load when washer or dryer is started.

[JoeD.]

Well, with more solid and heavier connections, the dryer and washer started right up. Washer was a bit balky on the spin cycle, but just agitating was ok.

  Sump pump- whined and stalled a bit at first, but then took off with me repeatedly starting and stopping it. It has about 6 foot of head to pump against- a 1-1/2" pipe that tall full of water setting there against the check valve that it has to get moving before it'll wind up and run.

  I have a modern heating system (Munchkin brand boiler- small) in the basement that is electronic controlled, and it has about 4 little fractional horsepower (1/12th and 1/6th hp) water pumps that pump hot water thru my heating system. The Munchkin wouldn't act right, nor would any of the pumps spin. That was one of the items on the top of my list of things I'd like to have operate in a power failure. I think it is related to modified sine~

 I'd really like to connect it to the house electrical system and do away with the extension cord and see what that does. Tomorrow I may rig up a jumper cable to connect it with.  The same thing I do with the portable generator I use. That way I could see how the lights in the house act. Some CFLs' and all flourescents in the garage.

[wpowokal]

Actually a centrifugal pump which I assume your sump pump is, has a load proportional to speed so should start, you might want to check any start/run capacitors.

allan

[wooferhound]

When you try to run the computer, try adding a small 15-25 watt incandescent bulb on there with it. That will provide a resistive load to the system which should help all the switching power supplies in your computer system work a little better. Even a 4-7 watt christmas light may work.

[JoeD.]

 

  Thanks for the tip. Would that bulb be series somehow with the computer input, or parallel.  I should try that on my fancy heating system as well.

 I just got back in from playing, 'er um, testing. I made up a 12 volt set of the GNB (now exide) Absolyte 2 volt cells and ran the inverter for about 30 minutes. They have been setting outside connected to that harbor freight 45 watt panel for about a month. Thought I'd use some of that electricity up. I run the inverter long and hard enough to get the cooling fan to come on. I had about a 1500 watt draw on it. Any more than that and the low input voltage warning buzzer would start.

   Each cell is marked as 320 a.h. So, as they are connected right now, do I have a 320a.h. battery,  or do I have a 1920 a.h. battery.  Or, would it be 320 a.h. no matter if it was @ 2 or 12 vdc.  I'm confused the more I think about it.

  Anyhow, as far as lighting, my garage has three 6 foot flourescents, and a smattering of 4 footers. The 4' units consist of one 4 bulb fixture, one has two, and the third is a single bulb. The 6 foot liked it, but only the ancient 4 foot single with the external starter managed to light up.

  The garage door opened OK. Drill press wouldn't start. Some track lighting I have over the workbench- transformer powered 12 volt spotlights- lit right up.


  And, surprisingly enough, a large old battery charger I have connected in the shop worked just fine- as far as the amp gauge showed. Tablesaw was on the wrong circuit, so I couldn't try it.

[jayson]

an 80D is a starting (SLI) battery no?

[JoeD.]

an 80D is a starting (SLI) battery no?

  That should read 8-D, not 80-D. I will try to go edit that and correct it.

  From what I read, they are about 1300+ cranking amps. They are the big commercial batteries.

[wooferhound]

  Thanks for the tip. Would that bulb be series somehow with the computer input, or parallel.  I should try that on my fancy heating system as well.

 

Plug the incandescent bulb in as usual which would be Parallel.

When you string batteries together in series, the voltage goes up but the amphours stay the same.

An 8D battery is about 225 amphours, cranking amps doesn't really mean very much.

[ghurd]

I am quite surprised the laptop would not start.
What is it?
Off the top of my head, I can think of 4 Macs all using the 'high power' wall wart, at least 2 that ran fine with the 'low power' wall wart, 3 Toshibas, and another I can't recall, that run fine from seriously cheap inverters
(175W and 400W Vectors, 150W Freedom Jazz, {150W PROwatt is not cheap but does the job on the ones it was subjected to}).
In fact, I never saw a laptop that would not work from the 400W Vector.

The sump pump doesn't surprise me at all.
I have use a 1200W transformer based inverter rated for 200% overload for 5 minutes, powered by the running truck battery, and bring a 1/4HP sump pump just in case.
If the head is high enough, and if the pipe is that 1.25" corrugated, and its a 3/4 or 1HP pump, it might not start reliably.
Could be the #7 jumper cable connection, made of both halves of $4 #10 Big Lots jumper cables.

I never thought about a gas dryer.  Ours (grid) dims the basement lights for a full second until it is up and running.  It must be quite a large and long drain.

If the grid is down, and I only have two 8-Ds available, my order of priorities would be security, communication, fridge/freezer/water level, and light somewhere in there.
Clean dry jeans do not make the list.
"The basement is flooding, the food is spoiling, and the com lines are down, and a load of laundry needs done right now."  

Heat from a battery bank is pretty silly in the overall picture.
Your room heater = 1500W.
My wife's hair dryer = 1850W, and it doesn't make the house warm.
If it is so cold that bit of heat for a short time makes any difference, time to start the gas oven, or burn the furniture and keep the internet/TV connected.

I am just saying when the poo hits the fan, the priorities change fast.
Niles OH tornado of '85 with the substation next to the roller rink completely MIA for >2 weeks, and a hurricane parking over us for a few days about 7 years ago, and my #1 priority is now the sump pumps.
G-

[JoeD.]

  I'm basing my list of priorities on what I'd need in the event powerlines are knocked down for a week from an ice or wind storm. Unlikely, but possible. All this stuff I was running from the inverter was just me experimenting.

  I use an attic fan for cooling, too tight to use A/C. Didn't try the fan, but I feel it would probably work ok.

  Can't live without heating in winter, so I'm worried that the heating system doesn't want to function. My main heat comes from an outside woodburning boiler heating the house thru baseboard heating, but that heat is directed to the house by the control system of the gas fired, computer/electronically controlled high efficiency gas fired boiler in the basement. It doesn't fire at all when the wood is supplying the heat, but its' controls turn pumps on and off to direct the hot water where it needs to be.

 It is a low current draw appliance, so I sure hate to run a gasoline generator when I could be using this free wood heat and getting the heat to the house using an inverter way more efficiently.

  I'm just starting the washer and dryer to see if they will work or not~ experimenting. You're right~ they would be the low priority, but sooner or later I could wash some clothes and dry them on the clothesline.....

  Cold storage appliances are towards the top, but they have the ability to stay cold for long periods w/o electricity, and I know now that they will operate on the inverter.

  I use an antenna with my TV, which likes the inverter, so it's nice to have TV during inclement weather.

  The computer is a desktop that I use it often, so would like to be able to run it off the inverter.

  As far as the oil filled heater- that's just to put a load on the inverter and batteries to see how they'd perform while I was experimenting.

 

 

[ghurd]

I would be a little nervous about connecting MSW to some of those newer computer controlled furnaces.
I read stories here about MSW smoking some of the 'computer parts' in the newer fridges, and I expect the furnace computer is not a whole lot different.
Can you bypass the fancy stuff, and just hot wire the pump to the inverter?

That would still leave that handful of zone valves that are 24VAC and wired into a box of sensitive stuff that looks like the Space Shuttle's wiring system?
Maybe add a manual bypass valve around a zone valve or 2?

Fun Stuff.
G-

[JoeD.]

Well, I don't have zone valves. Not quite that advanced. One big loop sending hot water thru every room in the house, then back out to the boiler. Can't figure out why none of the little circulating pumps will run.

  I am getting ready to install a Takagi tankless hot water (natural gas fired) heater.  I doubt it will run, either, but when I get it all hooked up I will give it a shot.

  I guess I am most irritated that in the event of a power failure,  the two appliances that would come in real handy would be unuseable on inverter power and I would be force to use the gas generator to keep warm or take a bath.

[Isaiah]

Will your washer  & dryer run off your generator?
Some motors wont start on a generator or inverter!
If this is the case you may have to work around them pick up a old ringer washer and see if the motor runs. if not these are not hard to change

[JoeD.]

Will your washer  & dryer run off your generator?

  Yes, they'll start and run. Earlier I was just having poor connections from the battery and it was causing problems. With that corrected, they work OK.

[Bruce S]

Well, I don't have zone valves. Not quite that advanced. One big loop sending hot water thru every room in the house, then back out to the boiler. Can't figure out why none of the little circulating pumps will run.

  I am getting ready to install a Takagi tankless hot water (natural gas fired) heater.  I doubt it will run, either, but when I get it all hooked up I will give it a shot.

  I guess I am most irritated that in the event of a power failure,  the two appliances that would come in real handy would be unuseable on inverter power and I would be force to use the gas generator to keep warm or take a bath.

JoeD.
I wanted to call a neighbor before I chimed in here about the items that will NOT run. Mainly your fancy control system.
The controls use the AC waveform as it's clocking / timing system, so it's looking for a pure sine-wave. I asked him about a UPS system that has pure sine-wave and he has installed some of them with the APC and MGE units that are up in the 1600VA level and above.

THAT seems to be were you are having the most need.
The Desktop computer, uhh yea don't do that with desktops. Go find a small 200Va UPS can run that, your PS in it will love you lots longer.

The fan and oil filled heaters are resistive loads and pretty much could not care if it was MWS or Grid they just want the power.

IF you find a APC unit, open it up pull battery out and give it a shake it may rattle, if so it's toast, you can do what I've done and run 12ga wire out of the UPS unit and connect it to external batteries.
APC units should be findable for pretty cheap, if you don't find one let me know via PM your zip and I can let you know what a UPS ground sent unit will cost from St. Louis, MO The newer blues ones are sweet little units , but they too burn up the batteries with heat.

 If you're reading this I'm editing a mistake I'm changing the 1600 watt to the corrected 1600Va like it was in my mind NOT my hands

[Bruce S]

Question: How well did those Absolyte batteries do? Those can handle a larger DoD drain and come back, so they may be able to handle the loads you're working with.

Cheers
Bruce S

[JoeD.]

  Explain to me what APC, MGE, and MWS mean. I understand what U.P.S. is.

  Putting in place a dedicated UPS for each- the tankless water heater, the computer, and the boiler is a great idea. The inverter can run the rest of the house. I could probably live without the computer if it came down to it. I have enough battery capacity to do everything.

  Bruce, you have lifted my spirits!

  As far as the absolytes- I guess they did OK. I have no means of calculating what they are capable of, all I did was put as big a load as I could on the inverter. At about 1500 watts, the inverter starts squealing that battery input voltage has dropped to the 10.5 volt level and any more lower it would shut it off. That was only 6 cells powering it. If I let up on the load oil heater load, everything went back to normal and all the things I had hooked to the inverter hummed right along. I didn't have anything else to parallel them with except the 8D battery set, but I had no way of wiring them all together at the time, so it was just 320a.h. worth of absolyte doing its' thing.

  I forgot to ask~ are you trying to tell me you have some damaged UPS', MWS', APCs', or MGE's (whatever they are ;-) )you want to unload that I could probably make work? If so, my zip is 67357. I like hand-me-downs!

 

 

[Bruce S]

  Explain to me what APC, MGE, and MWS mean. I understand what U.P.S. is.

  Putting in place a dedicated UPS for each- the tankless water heater, the computer, and the boiler is a great idea. The inverter can run the rest of the house. I could probably live without the computer if it came down to it. I have enough battery capacity to do everything.

  Bruce, you have lifted my spirits!

   I forgot to ask~ are you trying to tell me you have some damaged UPS', MWS', APCs', or MGE's (whatever they are ;-) )you want to unload that I could probably make work? If so, my zip is 67357. I like hand-me-downs!
 

JoeD.
 APC and MGE are companies that make UPS(es) They are brand names and are known for mostly good stable equipment.
The Tank-Less water heater may not need a dedicated UPS, unless its computer doesn't like the power coming from the inverter.
What seems to be happening with the LVD squeal is your are drawing the voltage down too far at one time.
This can have several catastrophic effects, so I would maybe divide the needs.

We, the company I work at, does have some that are without batteries but still work. AND for the cost of shipping (IF there are none to be found in your area on Craigslist/Goodwill/DAV resale shop,ect) can be sent out.

These are heavy, even without the batteries, the cost of shipping them could be as much as getting one locally. HOWEVER YES they are available.
MWS stands for Modified Sine Wave ( normally what comes out of lower priced inverters.

I would look into finding out the minimum Volt-Amps needed to run each of the fancy computer controlled items add 20% and use a UPS for each one.
I would not go much further than 20% over what is needed since there will be inherited losses.
You will be going from DC to inverter AC to UPS which takes the charging of its battery from AC down to DC then back up to AC, so losses are a bunch  , but if there's no power and your home is freezing, losses have little meaning at that time.

The Computer can runoff one as small as a 200va unit IF you must. We at work use 1200va units, at home I have switch to using a laptop, but before that used separate 200va unit to power items individually, ALSO MAKE SURE the UPS can be turned on even if the power is already off.

The Absolyte batteries causing the inverter to squeal could have only been the cabling you were testing with. First get the cabling sorted out and then start testing them.

TomW has his and has some very good info in his diary/posts about using them.
BTW The oil heater doesn't need anything more than power of some kind, think of it as an oil filled toaster.

Glad I could be helpful

Cheers
Bruce S
 
   

[ghurd]

Can't figure out why none of the little circulating pumps will run.

  I am getting ready to install a Takagi tankless hot water (natural gas fired) heater.  I doubt it will run, either, but when I get it all hooked up I will give it a shot.

  I guess I am most irritated that in the event of a power failure,  the two appliances that would come in real handy would be unuseable on inverter power and I would be force to use the gas generator to keep warm or take a bath.

Throw a few extra $$$ at it?
Maybe parallel 2 pumps with shut off valves?
One grid pump and valve for normal,
Other pump and valve for battery?

I expect you could get the 12VDC pump and 2 valves for a lot less than a decent pure wave inverter big enough that bigger stuff.

In fact, for back-up power, you may be better off planning for a low power DC pump than a lower efficiency AC pump.
A low power continuous low flow DC pump may use less battery power  than an intermittent AC PSW inverter powered pump, if an UPS is used.  It could save the money on more batteries that eventually need replaced, using less batteries in the first place, and needing less RE / gasoline to replace the battery charge.

Meaning if the inverter or UPS is sucking 25W just being on with no load, then a 20W DC pump may be a better option.
The battery bank can be a lot smaller and the charging source can be smaller too.
Smaller batteries, smaller charging source, and less load is cheaper to assemble and maintain.  (what Bruce said?)

Takagi is pretty well thought of over the whole planet.
And some places get some pretty sketchy grid specs, where if they had a picky one would not be very pleased.
It would not surprise me if it works perfectly fine with a pretty crappy inverter.
G-

[JoeD.]

  I don't think I'll find any flange mount DC pumps. I looked thru my normal suppliers and find no dc powered pumps.

  I'm not familiar with UPS'.

 I am under the impression that they are more or less a DC to AC inverter/battery charger, and that when there is incoming AC power a relay is held in to supply AC on to the load, and if the input AC drops out, the relay drops out and the battery powered inverter in the UPS takes care of the load instantly? A UPS is charging its' battery supply constantly, correct?

   I looked on craigslist for a 100 mile radius and found an APC UPS in Tulsa Oklahoma, but he doesn't give any details on the unit and he listed no phone number. I will send him a message today and ask questions.

  I called the Takagi company and the tech support fellow tells me the unit draws .04 amps at idle, and .51 running- which would be the combustion fan and the units electronics. He says that they are very sensitive and would run only on PSW power. But, he sounded like a call center employee, so maybe he was just taking the safe route and telling me what he thought I wanted to hear.

  Munchkin hasn't returned my call yet.

 I may use a UPS of enough capacity to run the Munchkin boiler/circulating pumps  and the Takagi water heater at the same time and not bother with two separate UPS'- I don't know. I could put a set of the absolyte batteries down there to run it off of.

[Bruce S]

The better UPS' actually are running the AC side directly off the internal battery(ies).
 The Mains incoming power keeps the battery in a fully charged state and running the "inverter" portion at the same time.
The relay of sorts you may here when the mains goes away, is it shuting down the mains side so there is NO back feed in to the wall socket. This would cause a danger.
Both APC and MGE units above 1000va are designed this way. Plus they have the added benefit of being able to turn them ON if they are not and the power goes out.

For me, external batteries are a better way to go for these types of units. With a constant charging mode, the internal batteries tend to dry up as they are in a hot closed environment and after a few years (2 for APC unit over 1000va) the batteries are simply no good for normal users.
Even the larger 3Kva units that are 48Vdc wired have the same problem. 

ALL the units we use that are over the 1500Va are PSW units, a quick O-scope hook up verified that.
One other "gotcha" is that you will need to be careful NOT to exceed the UPS' ability to keep the batteries charged otherwise you'll here it constantly clicking trying to recharge the battery.

I use to use a nice small 200va unit on our chest type freezer. I had external batteries on it like normal, but I noticed that after connecting 4 12Ahr batteries to it, for extended run time, it was getting hot and clicking a lot.
Taking the extra batteries off until that stopped told me I had exceeded the internal battery charger's ability to charge them.

I have since switched it out for an old 1000va unit and just enough battery to keep it running for 3 hours.

Hope this helps;
Bruce S

 

[ghurd]

"I don't think I'll find any flange mount DC pumps. I looked thru my normal suppliers and find no dc powered pumps."
They are out there.
http://store.solar-electric.com/sodcwapu.html
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/Components.htm#Pumps
http://www.sunmaxxsolar.com/solar-hot-water-circulator-pumps.php (never heard of the company, but the list is good)
G-

[JoeD.]

  OK, I got info from Takagi and Munchkin for current requirements for their equipment and I copied the current draw off the pumps.

  Takagi tankless water heater...   .51 amp running and .04 when at idle.
  Munchkin boiler.....................   .87 amp
  circulator pumps.................... 1.85 amp
                                               .74 amp
                                               .80 amp
_________________________________
For a total of 4.77 amps if everything was running, 550 watts. I'll be on the lookout for a UPS capable of that.

   The takagi only runs on demand, and if the Munchkin boiler is running, at least 2 pumps run, most often 3.

  Ghurd, I checked out those websites and didn't see the pumps I'd have to use- they have to be flanged pumps, like the Grundfous models. Can't have threaded fitting on the ends.