Author Topic: transformerlees inverter schematic  (Read 11673 times)

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solarnevo1

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transformerlees inverter schematic
« on: September 18, 2010, 06:38:16 PM »
Can someone post 120 v dc to 120 v ac transformerlees inverter schematic?

joestue

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2010, 08:16:05 AM »
there is no such thing.
My wife says I'm not just a different colored rubik's cube, i am a rubik's knot in a cage.

TomW

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2010, 08:32:33 AM »
You want fries with that?

Sorry couldn't resist the fast food angle.

Tom

hydrosun

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2010, 12:35:12 PM »
Home Power magazine had an article over 15 years ago about someone designing such an inverter. It reversed both positive and negative connections 120 times a second to create 60 cycle AC. The article only showed a block diagram of the concept. It was offgrid.  It was running off an 120 volt battery charged with solar panels. The idea was if you started at high voltage DC you didn't need the transformer to up the voltage.  I've no idea if they ever got it working well.
Chris

BrianSmith

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2010, 12:59:39 PM »
This idea could work if you have a really big output network (L / C) that could help filter the output to make it at least trapasoidal, ideally sinusoidal.  Seems like you would need more than 120VDC since 120V AC is 170V peak to peak.  It would also be tough regulating since it would just follow the battery output. 

joestue

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2010, 01:32:56 PM »
well, if OP considers a boost converter to be transformer-less, then its doable.

He could also build a flying capacitor boost converter to get 180vdc from 120*, then pwm that...
*yes, that is theoretically possible, the number of ac switches though...
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 01:34:40 PM by joestue »
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JW

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2010, 01:51:42 PM »

DamonHD

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2010, 01:57:40 PM »
No, not unless they are GTO (gate-turn-off) for a start.

An SCR once triggered cannot be turned off until the voltage across it drops to (near) zero, so not much good for converting from DC to anything else...

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JW

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2010, 02:46:48 PM »
Quote
An SCR once triggered cannot be turned off until the voltage across it drops to (near) zero, so not much good for converting from DC to anything else...

Right, when controlling high power DC (300amps+) I found this out, initally I considered using SCR's, I ended up using Mosfet's.

The reason I suggested SCR's is because I was thinking about the "secondary" part of the invertor. Its also a good point to mention mosfets can control "under voltage", I believe SCR's do a better job with the waveform, but the primary voltage must already be AC. I know that it is possible to make a voltage doubler circuit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_doubler but this is also needing an AC primary like a transformer needs in order to double voltage. Once youve solved the problem of generating an AC primary (as you would need anyway for a transformer to work) you could use a volage doubler circuit, the problem is, it's output would be converted to DC, this does not occur with a transformer.

A cool link to some circuits that use SCR's http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_3/chpt_7/5.html

JW



solarnevo1

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2010, 03:09:49 PM »
there is inverters like that. String inverters but fanman have some schemtics for inverter like that. square wave driver and mosfets switching 120 v dc and convert that in 120 v ac its simple but I don t understan the output with mosfet...

JW

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« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 07:39:40 PM by JW »

dnix71

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2010, 03:50:17 PM »
From the wikipedia article on grid_tie_inverters technology subsection

Grid-tie inverters that are available on the market today use a number of different technologies. The inverters may use the newer high-frequency transformers, conventional low-frequency transformers, or even use no transformer. Instead of converting DC current directly to 120 or 240 volts AC, high-frequency transformers employ a computerized multi-step process that involves converting the power to high-frequency AC and then back to DC and then to the final AC output voltage.[1] Transformerless inverters, which boast lighter weight and higher efficiencies than their counterparts with transformers, are popular in Europe. However, transformerless inverters have been slow to enter the US market. Until 2005, NEC code required all solar electric systems to be negative grounded, an electrical configuration that interferes with the operation of transformerless inverters. The issue at stake currently is that there are concerns about having transformerless electrical systems feed into the public utility grid since the lack of galvanic isolation between the DC and AC circuits could allow the passage of dangerous DC faults to be transmitted to the AC side.[2]


Most solar grid-interactive inverters on the market include a maximum power point tracker that enables the inverter to extract an optimal amount of power from the solar array by tracking the array's maximum power point.

The references were:

1 ^ Solar Energy International (2006). Photovoltaics: Design and Installation Manual, Gabriola Island, BC:New Society Publishers, p. 80.
2 ^ Ton, Dan and Ward Bower (2005). "Summary Report on the DOE High-tech Inverter Workshop", sponsored by the US Department of Energy, prepared by McNeil Technologies.

joestue

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2010, 04:20:50 PM »
From the wikipedia article on grid_tie_inverters technology subsection

Transformerless inverters, which boast lighter weight and higher efficiencies than their counterparts with transformers, are popular in Europe. [...]The issue at stake currently is that there are concerns about having transformerless electrical systems feed into the public utility grid since the lack of galvanic isolation between the DC and AC circuits could allow the passage of dangerous DC faults to be transmitted to the AC side.[2][/b]

i hope they aren't actually serious when they say that "dangerous" dc faults could be transmitted to the ac side.. i mean, if you saturate your pole transformer and it goes up in flames.. that's one down 60 million to go.

but back to OP's request, there are a few schematics floating around the net of a recent grid tie inverter, and you might try the edaboard, i know they are a lot more friendly about posting intellectual property to rapidshare and all that.

its really just a boost converter feeding an hbridge. just because they use a zero voltage resonant switching phase shifted Z-source inverter doesn't mean you can't build it, just that they have a product that works, for 40-50 cents a watt...
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dnix71

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2010, 10:00:28 PM »
Quote: i hope they aren't actually serious when they say that "dangerous" dc faults could be transmitted to the ac side.. i mean, if you saturate your pole transformer and it goes up in flames.. that's one down 60 million to go.

Pole transformers are in people's back yards here. We had one in Tampa that failed. The breaker tripped and the lineman brought out a fiberglass pole to reset it.
When he did it tripped again in his face. He dropped the pole and ran. A live wire at 22k or flaming oil falling on you can ruin your day. We have transformers fail in my neighborhood pretty often. They are left in service until they just die of old age or get struck by lightning. One 6-pack failed above a bus stop two blocks away from here 2 years ago and took out 1/2 square mile of power to homes when the fault cascaded to other transformers. The ones around the fault couldn't handle the bypassed load. One went bang in the next door neighbors back yard and one on a pole 3 houses down on the street shorted out 3 times before finally failing.

If isolating the DC side of a grid-tie protects the grid then I'm all for it, even if it means your inverter has to have transformers.

The same issue exists with those stupid MOSFET car amps that rattle people's windows a block away. They went transformerless years ago to maximize power and minimize size, but if you accidentally short a speaker wire to the chassis, your amp goes BANG quick.

rogeriko

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2010, 06:07:39 PM »
a sine wave inverter is basically a 60hz audio amplifier with power enough to output 120 volts
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joestue

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2010, 07:34:55 PM »
a sine wave inverter is basically a 60hz audio amplifier with power enough to output 120 volts

Great minds think alike   ;D
all i'm going to say about that is.. 1-2kw audio amps are about 100$ on craigslist where i live, a 2Kw isolation transformer is about 200$, and they are easy to find the center and make it a 60:120vac tx, a PLL is about 3$ in parts... can't say i've done this out loud.
efficiency leaves much to be desired...

Now if i were to stick a ul1741 hyper-visor on this and stick it in a box, it would be called a grid tie inverter and cost 50 cents a watt.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2010, 07:39:04 PM by joestue »
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wooferhound

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2010, 12:11:16 AM »
But then you would need an inverter to run the audio amplifier . . .

DamonHD

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2010, 02:07:43 AM »
Or 50Hz, and unlikely to be a class-A output stage so has to achieve low THD in other ways, and possibly with the ability to synchronise to another signal (eg for grid-tie or stacking), so only very superficially IMHO...

Rgds

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Norm

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2010, 08:32:18 AM »
Can someone post 120 v dc to 120 v ac transformerlees inverter schematic?
Why would you want one?
What would your source be?

solarnevo1

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2010, 05:18:46 PM »
I live in europ and I want to go on 120 v dc sistem. I need schematic  with mosfets just to make 120 v dc to 120 v ac and trabsformer from 120 ac to 220 v ac. I think ther is simpel way to make that with square wave signal and mosfets. H bridge mosfet circuit. But i dont understan h bridg with mosfets... Dont know hove to make that. fanma use cheap inverter for square wave and drive mosfets with it. just to convert 120 v dc to 120 v ac...

joestue

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2010, 06:23:41 PM »
buy one off the shelf for 10-20 cents a watt.

without a few hundred $ in test equipment you won't be able to build one cheaper than you can buy one..
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 06:27:38 PM by joestue »
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dnix71

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2010, 07:08:02 PM »
I need schematic  with mosfets just to make 120 v dc to 120 v ac and trabsformer from 120 ac to 220 v ac.

Making a square wave inverter will limit what you can properly run. Induction motors (pumps, fridges, fans and the like) don't like square waves.

JW

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2010, 07:38:27 PM »
If you want to run some 60HZ 120vac appliances, just use 12 volt DC from auto batterys and a 1500watt invertor like this.-

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&expIds=17259,25748,26515,52718&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=1500+watt+inverters&cp=17&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&rlz=1I7SNYC_en&wrapid=tljp128511192504612&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=11537699934853301942&ei=ckCZTMOzKc2Sswbll9GDDA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQ8wIwAA#

It only costs 40 dollars US, and will run many low watt transformers, so you can recharge the battery in the appliances like a cell phone, with charger using 120VAC 60hz. we call them, wall transformers or "wall-worts" ,its very easy for a 1500watt inverter to power many of these, most consume less than 200watts each.

JW

JW

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2010, 07:51:32 PM »

joestue

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2010, 08:20:29 PM »
If you want to run some 60HZ 120vac appliances, just use 12 volt DC from auto batterys and a 1500watt invertor like this.-

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&expIds=17259,25748,26515,52718&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=1500+watt+inverters&cp=17&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&rlz=1I7SNYC_en&wrapid=tljp128511192504612&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=11537699934853301942&ei=ckCZTMOzKc2Sswbll9GDDA&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CCwQ8wIwAA#

It only costs 40 dollars US, and will run many low watt transformers, so you can recharge the battery in the appliances like a cell phone, with charger using 120VAC 60hz. we call them, wall transformers or "wall-worts" ,its very easy for a 1500watt inverter to power many of these, most consume less than 200watts each.

JW

yeah, the $40 is for the 200 watt version.

my comment about 10-20 cents a watt is valid..
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JW

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2010, 08:43:59 PM »
To be honest, that 1500watt inverter for 40 bucks must have been an ebay thing, you'll notice the next LKQ (Like Kind Quality) unit sells for about 120 dollars to 150 dollars. I was somewhat concerned about that, after re-reading the link.

JW

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Re: transformerlees inverter schematic
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2010, 12:06:41 AM »
With 120vDC without transformers you will only get about 90vAC. A modified sine inverter works by converting the low DC volts to high DC volts (usually with a whole bank of identical converters) and then switches that high voltage using a MOSFET bridge. Note that MS is *NOT* a squarewave - it has periods of zero volts between each positive and negative cycle.

The 120vDC will be the *peak* voltage of your AC hence the equivalent RMS value is about 90vAC.



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