Author Topic: Attempting life after impending death...  (Read 3768 times)

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Madscientist267

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Attempting life after impending death...
« on: November 11, 2010, 12:11:07 AM »
Hey all -

Thought you'd find this interesting...

In a thread somewhere by... ? (Tom?) I read somewhere that someone had tried watering an SLA...

I have one near death, it cant hold a load for $#!+ and decided that I had nothing to lose, so I grabbed a syringe and pumped her up with water, and am currently giving her some form of equalization charge as I type this. All is so far as expected, got the level just above the plates (although accuracy is rather limited via a 1/4 (or less) inch hole to look down into, but the suspect cell sure enough is the only one not bubbling.

I'll let you all know what happens with this. Seemed worth mentioning, as it was a freebie (and was part of a pack, to which it's counterpart cooperates just fine).

Its an 18AH, 12V "LONG", part # WP18-12, if anyone wants to reference it against anything.

FTR, it started out with a "full" charge, and dropped to 7.75 with a 3 ohm(ish) nichrome stretch of wire connected across its terminals, on an immediate basis.

Lets see what happens.  :o

Steve
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Madscientist267

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2010, 07:39:57 AM »
Well, the results even after just a couple of days are somewhat promising... maybe.

I'm really starting to believe that what has commonly been thought to be 'sulfation' is really more about dry cells. Not in every case, obviously, but I think there's a good possibility that this one sure is.

Collectively, the 6 cells took a total of about 10oz of water. Performance had a small but almost immediate effect (I'm sure this is from striation).

After 12 hours or so at 15.25V, the 'inactive' cell was still not bubbling, while the others were going at it fairly strongly. The 5 active cells had warmed up somewhat, not hot, just notably warmer than the 6th (which happened to be on the end, making it easy to feel the temp difference).

I took it off charge and let them settle for about 8 hours or so, and then checked the OTV. Not exactly promising; 11.6 or so. Indicative that the reason for the last cell not bubbling was likely because it was shorted. Hmm. Ok, so I set out to find out.

Loading at this point with the same stretch of nichrome showed most definite improvement in the response. It dipped down to 11.3 or so immediately, followed by a decline down to 9V or so. I did this in a bang-bang like way, allowing surface charge recovery each time.

As the voltage dropped, the short in the last cell began revealing itself. I took it down to about 7.5V, and then increased the frequency to somewhere in the 10 sec on, 10 sec off range. During rest periods, as the voltage would approach 9.2, it would suddenly jump to 10.2 and then continue to climb. Ahh, warped plate/debris induced short.

I pushed it a bit harder by increasing the current and carefully watching the meter. At the point that I let go and let it come to final rest to resume slow charging, I was pulling 8 or 9 amps. The current was never directly measured; this is calculated based on the wire being ~1 ohm/foot and I varied the length that the drop took place on from 8 to 10 inches. Taking into account the voltage drop of course, this comes out somewhere in that range. I had to be careful, I was dealing with red and orange hot nichrome and so had to vary the length as necessary. :)

One very odd phenomena that happened during this that I think is worth mentioning... During the heavy 'equalization' charging I gave it after adding the water, the 5 active cells provided heat. The inactive one remained cool. During the heavy discharges, the opposite took place, and the discharge current was more than double the charge current... The 5 active cells remained cool, the previously inactive one heated.

My only personal conclusion is that the short is resistive, and that maybe in the attempt to break it up, it generated heat, or, polarity reversal may have been taking place after breaking up whatever was causing the short, liberating heat... ? I don't have any idea if polarity reversal liberates any more heat than normal "charging", but its a thought. Reversal was definitely a very good possibility at the currents I was dealing with.

Ok, so once I was sure the short was at least at bay for the moment, I've learned in the past that if a shorted cell is suspect, heat will bring it out. And it did, during the discharge. So to avoid this, I've been letting it charge VERY slowly since, in the order of 0.05C or so; about 100mA.

It is responding well, and as the cells charge, it clamps the charger a little more and more, and the CTV actually drops very slowly (by 1/10 V) over the course of several hours, necessitating an adjustment in charge current.

I'm charging through a bank of resistors and switches that effectively become a binary potentiometer. I prefer this because I can keep track of how long a battery was on a given charge rate and if it had to be changed, etc etc.

More to come as this thing charges. It could be a while. Thats a very slow rate...  ::) 

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

ghurd

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2010, 10:11:38 PM »
No help,
but under the large "cover", does the battery have removable rubber caps on each cell?
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Madscientist267

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2010, 10:42:11 PM »
LOL came back tonight expecting still no replies... I think everyone knows where I'm going with this...

Yeah, rubber caps removed, I used an irrigation syringe to give it its juice, but the short is too persistent. It will pull some current, but OTV likes to be below 12, upper 11's.

Looks like as a whole, this one's a lost cause. Should have caught it sooner. I had a feeling it was in the toilet before I began; I've actually procured a victim that may be a better candidate to try this with.

On the bright side (no pun intended), it can more than suitably drive one of my buck drivers for a 3W LED die as a "10V" battery... Hahaha Guess every cloud has that silver lining...  :-\

All of these come from separated packs out of APC 1400 UPS units. It's no surprise I'm dealing with the dead here. None of them ever become part of anything important, but get used for whatever I feel like at the moment might find use of it. It's all a learning process on these damn things, but what I've learned the most is that there is no way in hell I would ever use SLA (or VRLA, or anything 'maintenance free') as my main system storage... EVER... hahaha Waste of time for those purposes...

I want to try this on an otherwise 'healthy' specimen to see if it really makes an impact. Good candidates are very difficult to come by... they are slow to show up, and when they do, the ones that perform well end up in service in one form or another, the ones that have obviously bit it go straight for the e-waste pile at work and never make it to my 'shop'.

My latest procurement looks rather healthy, but I'm considering 'rehabbing' it anyway, just because of the shape it's partner was in.

Decisions decisions... all in the name of science I suppose; easy come, easy go LOL.

If I kill it, screw it, wait a few weeks, there will be another that pops up. If I dont and I get even 20% more out of it, well, that info might be useful. Guess we'll see...  ???

Steve
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 10:49:40 PM by Madscientist267 »
The size of the project matters not.
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bj

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2010, 10:52:53 PM »
   Steve, probably no help, but I tried dumping the acid on a couple of free D8D's.  Filled with distilled, and charged.  (for days)  Dumped and did it again.
Next dump refilled with electrolyte.  One revived some.  It's in my two ton.  The other Nada.  Honestly don't know if I got lucky with one, or unlucky with the
other.  Have to try it again some day.
"Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a while"
bj
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Madscientist267

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2010, 11:06:13 PM »
Assuming youre talking about FLA 8D batteries, like in the 220AH range here?

Yep, got one of them, thats at the head of my standby system. I'm not off grid (yet) LOL but learning what my usage characteristics are with this setup. It's been interesting.

Computers are now backed up by 4 SLIG115C golf cart batteries on 2 APC 1400 UPS units (after a VERY expensive lesson a few years ago), the other system is separate with the 8D being the master.

PC's run for hours if I need them to, but they aren't the ones I toy with. My 'play' system is the 8D and it's minions, the 18AH SLAs and a couple of other mixed here and there. One set is 8 years old, and still has about 80% rated capacity! Slowly but surely mastering this. You guys have helped me a LOT!

I really owe you all some pix of the new setup and what's going on. I plan on eventually posting not only pix of the batteries and the accessory assortment that goes with them, but also the schematic of the (somewhat technically primitive, but...) DAMN expensive (because of how I went about it) battery charger that I recently built. The thing is virtually bulletproof, but I'm going to have to cut corners a little more efficiently the next time around, particularly if I intend to go full-on RE.

Steve
 
The size of the project matters not.
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Harold in CR

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2010, 09:44:54 AM »

 I was watching a video the other night. Bob Bedini was showing how to resurrect lead acid batteries.

 He bleeds them absolutely dead. Drains out the acid electrolyte, flushes out the cells completely as possible. Put the filtered acid back in, and reverse charges the battery.

 He had homemade cells sitting on his work bench. He showed what those sulfation crystals really look like, and what sulfation does to plates.

 IF I remember correctly, the positive plates are reddish brown (Chocolate) colored. The Negative is slate grey.  If ran completely dead, reverse charging will clean off the covering of crystals. Drain completely dead. Drain the acid, flush completely with distilled water, and fill with ALUM -water solution. About a 20% powder to water. Make it in a gallon milk jug, shake vigorously, and fill the battery.

 As he charges, the battery gets stronger. After charging, run it dead-dead. recharge the battery. He would use a flashlight type reflector and bulb, and time the discharge, until the battery was DEAD. Then, recharge, and so on, etc, etc.

 He actually gets MORE charge out than he puts in.

 He has many Alum batteries (Alkaline) sitting around his shop.

 YEAH, I know, but, IF anyone is interested, I will try to find the video and post a link.  If nothing else, it SHOWS what a battery looks like-sulfated.

bj

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2010, 06:55:22 PM »
  That would be an interesting read Harold, if you can find it.
"Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a while"
bj
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Harold in CR

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bj

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 09:16:27 AM »
   Many thanks Harold
"Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a while"
bj
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dbcollen

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2010, 11:31:21 AM »
He is not measuring the current during discharge. He is claiming to get more power out than he put in, and not actually taking measurements.

Harold in CR

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2010, 11:43:48 AM »
 True. However, is he not TIMING the charge, and then Timing the DISCHARGE ?? Seems that every time he cycles the charge-discharge, he gets a longer time. He IS tracking the amount of charge, so, he is showing the battery getting stronger, right ??

 I don't know any more than any one else. Just something for me-us to work with and see what comes of it, right ??

 I'm currently on the trail of a bad 8-D battery, out of a CAT loader.

 Might as well start out WAY over my head, eh ???  ;D

 Having trouble getting the correct translation of Alum, from my CR Nurse Bride  ::) ::)  Hope I end up with the correct stuff  ??? ::) ::) ;D

bj

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2010, 01:12:45 PM »
  Seems interesting Harold, unfortunately the 4 freebee D8D's i acquired appear to be O.K.  Also, unfortunately, I recycled the one
that I failed to help with the distilled water.  I guess I shouldn't whine, 5 O.K. D8D's for a bit of work is alright.
  Might just try it the next time I crater one by being stupid. (shouldn't take long) ;D
"Even a blind squirrel will find an acorn once in a while"
bj
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Harold in CR

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Re: Attempting life after impending death...
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2010, 06:56:19 PM »

 Did you understand that he discharges COMPLETELY after each charge cycle ??  He states that they behave more like NiCd's, so, discharge and voltage might be a tad weaker, but, still work very well.

 I have to go back and watch it again. Sometimes I think I see things that are not what they really are.

 Feel free to correct me. Maybe this will be something that is a benefit for home storage systems.

 Did you also get a look at the radial charger ??

 His name is John Bedini, not Bob, as I first stated  ::) ::)