batteries??

[artv]

Hi all ,not sure if this topic is allowed but here goes.....I've been reading lots about batteries......old earth batteries used for the early telegraph systems seem quite interesting,.....couldn't we use these to power electro-magnets ,...to drive the rotors to make power?,....that way the rotor could be designed around a given rpm.....no need for towers or blades..........I made 10 little batteries,....hooked in series they make 5.5volts and .47ma,......one of the ten batteries is actually three hooked parallel to the other nine......they've been running 5 leds for two months now ,....but their values don't drop as opposed to real batteries that go dead,....my question is how many amps do you need to make a decent electro-magnet?.........thanx for any input.......artv

[ghurd]

OU is Not allowed.
OU is Not allowed because it does not work, or we'd all be doing it.

But I am not exactly sure what you are asking.

The parallel batteries are connected in parallel with the other 9 in series?
My gut feeling is the 9 in series tried to "charge" the others, which (hopefully) caused some kind of insulating layer on the 3.  That would take the 3 out of the equasion, and the 3 ARE out of the equasion, or the combined terminal voltage would be 0.55V, and 0.55V is not enough to light an LED.
(again, see KVL)

"they've been running 5 leds for two months now"
Don't get too excited about that.
A pair of alkaline Ds can run a LED for more than a year, no problem.

"my question is how many amps do you need to make a decent electro-magnet?........."
A lot.  A whole lot more than a chemical reaction on that scale can supply.

The reason todays PMAs are so much better than not too long ago is because the neo magnets are so good.
It takes a lot of power to make a field the neos make.
ie:  Look why car alts are a poor choice.  Not just the RPM, but they use 60W to make the field.
And they use it even if they are only making 1W of output.

Basicially, it sounds like you want to use a battery for that 60W, plus the XXX amount of watts to turn something mechanical, then try to get "more than that many watts out".
Might as well power a light bulb from a battery being charged from solar panel to shine on the solar panel to charge the battery.  BTW- No, that does not work either, although a dude claiming to be an EE asked me why it would not work if the LEDs were "Ultra Bright" and the PVs were "big".  Nope, not kidding.

G-

[artv]

Ghurd......I'm not suggesting OU this is merely galvanic reaction"that's what they call it anyway".......I was just wondering if you put enough in series/parallel ,.....could you make an electro-magnet?...............artv.....1 reads .6volts ,  .10ma,......two in series reads~1.2volts ,    .10ma,....two parallel......read .6volts,  .20ma,........but the more you add parallel the amps increase but not the same as the two,.....it adds less and less,............seems to be roughly a third of what you would expect,....this dosen't follow the rules ,.......according to ohms law,..............just confused by what the meter says ,   and what the books say....artv

[ghurd]

Your numbers are microscopic to the point of being too small to accurately measure with 'regular Joe' type equipment regarding the details you seeming want to persue.
Less than 1V on a meter that can read 1000V?.
About 1/50th of one one thousandth of an amp on a meter that can read 20A?
The gator clips, their poor and high resistance connections to the wire and the clip's connection to whatever is connected to the cell.

Yes, it can make an electromagnet.

What you are wondering about is explained by Maxwell's Equations which he published about when Abraham Limcolm was elected, although Fillmore was president when the primarily experiments were done by other people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_equations
or
"Maxwell's equations represent one of the most elegant and concise ways to state the fundamentals of electricity and magnetism" according to this link,
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/maxeq.html

[dnix71]

http://scienceblogs.com/builtonfacts/2010/06/power_from_the_earths_magnetic.php  There is a discussion here about using the earth's magnetic field drift to make electricity.

The math shows it doesn't work. Which is fortunate, as one commenter pointed out. We wouldn't want the Van Allen belt coming down for a visit because the earth's magnetic field collapsed from people draining it to run their homes and businesses.

[wooferhound]

An Earth Battery is just a Galvanic Reaction caused by 2 different kinds of metal reacting to each other. One of the metals gets consumed in the reaction and must be frequently replaced. The cost of continuously replacing this metal is more than just using regular batteries. So in the end, you are just charging batteries with batteries.

[Madscientist267]

I love it. Stuff like this takes me back 25 years or more.

Ahh the idealist. Even those not suggesting OU are still in search of that 'free' energy.

My favorite of all time is the centrifugal force 'alternator' that suggests that we tether coils on decade-mile cables tied off at the equator and let the earth's spin generate power by forcing the coils to interact with the sun's magnetic field.

Talk about things you wouldn't want happening... LOL Days become longer, and eventually (at least in theory) the earth would cease to spin. But the persuit for something from nothing will never end, i fear.

Hahaha... never hurts to dream tho eh?

Steve

[ghurd]

I love it.
Talk about things you wouldn't want happening... LOL Days become longer, and eventually (at least in theory) the earth would cease to spin.

That big tidal dam hydro thing project in France slowed the earths rotation enough to measure in a very short time?

Free Energy.
Reduced rotation of the earth.
Ocean tides become all 'buggered up'.
Ya-da, Ya-Da, Ya-da...
Back to snowball earth.
Result:  The deepest spot of the Mariana Trench will be frozen solid because you wanted to light up 5 LEDs?
 

[artv]

Hi thanks for the replies,.........no free energy like woofer said ,...when I switch my meter to next lower scale 1710 micro volts with lights,...302 micro amps with lights,...if I switch to the next lower scale the meter reads error.......to buy batteries cost money ,...the ones I make can be made with stuff straight from the dump thus very easily replaced for free,.......artv

[Volvo farmer]

Since you do not appear to be getting the responses you want, this will just have to be one of those times where you are going to have to build it yourself and prove all the nay-sayers wrong.

[TomW]

Since you do not appear to be getting the responses you want, this will just have to be one of those times where you are going to have to build it yourself and prove all the nay-sayers wrong.

Aww, don't go tossing that ole "build it and they will come" myth into the mix.

I don't doubt that this kind of "battery" works or could be used but I am not too sure they would be much use beyond post apocalyptic / desert island useful.

Just me.

Tom

[Simen]

How about some Cow Dung batteries?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtxxDpvxYdE

[Madscientist267]

LMAO I thought you were kidding... YOU'RE NOT! Wow... just goes to show what can be done with little to even less.

Kinda inspiring in a way, even though we (meaning most of us reading these forums) are in developed countries, and don't quite have the need to go THAT far to acquire power. But like a good episode of Man vs. Wild, you never know when those little tid-bits of information will come in handy! 

The tree climbing bit is an interesting idea too (although that discussion probably is better suited for the 'tower' department under wind)... heheh

Steve

[WindriderNM]

Several years ago I heard that if you hang a bowling ball from a long cable it will start to sway, something to do with the earths rotation. It was about 30 years ago that I heard this so it is fussy I think the cable was about 55ft long.
Another source of free power lol

[SteveCH]

Several years ago I heard that if you hang a bowling ball from a long cable it will start to sway, something to do with the earths rotation. It was about 30 years ago that I heard this so it is fussy I think the cable was about 55ft long.
Another source of free power lol

 Foucault pendulum

[Madscientist267]

Gonna have to try it... I'm assuming tho that it doesn't specifically need to be a bowling ball, right? Just comparable mass?

Steve

[artv]

Hi all.... to Woofer, my little batteries have been running these 5 leds for three and a half months now still going,...the two little blinking leds in a kids toy for halloween only ran for two and a half weeks, the batteries went dead......I haven't had to replace ethier the copper or the aluiminum yet ,but there is quite a bit of build up on the copper ,....all I have to do is keep topping them up with water,.....to Volvo F & Tom W...I guess I have already started the build ,.....would just like to know what kind of amps I need to make a decent electromagnet?..........as for the rest no free power galvanic reaction as stated by Woofer.......but water, scrap copper,scrap aluminum and cotton rags are alot cheaper than store bought batteries.........thanx for all the replies..........artv

[Madscientist267]

I can't give you your answer, but I can give you another question...

What are you using for electrolyte (stuff dissolved in the water)...?

Steve

[artv]

Hi M267 I'm just using regular tap water ,....I live in the sticks ,a drilled well , but my water is very hard I'm sure there are lots of minerals in it

[fabricator]

Gonna have to try it... I'm assuming tho that it doesn't specifically need to be a bowling ball, right? Just comparable mass?

Steve

They got one in the atrium at a local high school, prolly got a 45 foot cable and a 50-60lb brass plumb bob, there is a sandbox under it and it traces a pattern in the sand, there always was a big one in the atrium of the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago also.

[taylorp035]

They had one at Edinboro University.  It had about the same dimensions as described above and they set up dominoes in a 10 ft circle (the dominoes were raised up so the bob wouldn't hit the floor).

[Madscientist267]

Yeah there would have to be something in the water... so the saying goes...

If you did this whole thing with distilled water, you'd have close to nil to show for it...

Toss some baking soda at it, or an acid (if you're prepared for what can come of this)...

As a kid I was doing experiments involving carbon, salt, and aluminum in a wax 'mold'. One day my mother and I both got a severe headache and onset was rapid... Years later I found out I had actually generated HCN in rather small amounts (hydrocyanic acid vapor, the stuff 'hitler' used to nuke the jewish community)...

As for the pendulum, there are apparently several of these all over the place. One (can't remember where it was, Paris I think) where the cable snapped and did irreparable damage to both the pendulum and marble floor... Still fascinating.

From what I gather though, they don't just start swaying on their own... The original mention of it in this thread suggests that they do... clarify?

Steve

[dualsport54]

Hi all.... to Woofer, my little batteries have been running these 5 leds for three and a half months now still going,...the two little blinking leds in a kids toy for halloween only ran for two and a half weeks, the batteries went dead......I haven't had to replace ethier the copper or the aluiminum yet ,but there is quite a bit of build up on the copper ,....all I have to do is keep topping them up with water,.....to Volvo F & Tom W...I guess I have already started the build ,.....would just like to know what kind of amps I need to make a decent electromagnet?..........as for the rest no free power galvanic reaction as stated by Woofer.......but water, scrap copper,scrap aluminum and cotton rags are alot cheaper than store bought batteries.........thanx for all the replies..........artv

   What you're seeing as an energy source is reclaimed energy used in the process of refining the metals you're using as poles in your batteries. In exchange... You are sending those metals back to mineral compositions similar to those that were originally refined. (Usually by smelting.) The energy you will be able to recover will only be a fraction of what was consumed in the original refining process. It is an interesting phenomenon, but by no means a valid source of renewable energy. Also... As a side result of allowing metals to decompose like this... You are contaminating any water or soil used as an electrolyte with potentially high levels of metals. Could contaminate ground water if you were to get carried away. Good experiment for fascinating children in the value of chemical processes... Bad way to become free of the grid. Additional note about the "Foucault Pendulum". For it to work it must be driven by an oscillating force (usually an electric coil winding near the pivot point) that does not affect the movement of the pendulum other than to keep it swinging. What the pendulum shows is the rotation of the Earth as the pendulum "progresses" around a 360 degree circle once every 24 hours. (Effectively showing the Earth rotating under the pendulum.)

[Madscientist267]

Thats what I figured, but wasn't sure (pendulum). I saw one as a kid and of course didn't 'get it', but have thought about it several times as an adult and figured it was some kind of mechanical excitation, but never knew because I had no idea what it was called.

As for the batteries, I couldn't agree with a 'newbie' more. The quotes serve as recognition and acknowledgement of sound logic and experience on the topics. Welcome to the board.

There's lots of goodies here. Lots of people with real world experience on just about every subject in the RE world.

Steve

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Additional note about the "Foucault Pendulum". For it to work it must be driven by an oscillating force (usually an electric coil winding near the pivot point) that does not affect the movement of the pendulum other than to keep it swinging.

Actually they just pull it to one side and let it go about opening time in the morning.  Air friction is low enough at those speeds that it's only lost a small fraction (maybe a fifth) of its energy by evening.

With the ones that sprinkle or displace sand to track their path you can see that, as the pendulum axis turnes, the amplitude of the swinging also gradually degrades.

What the pendulum shows is the rotation of the Earth as the pendulum "progresses" around a 360 degree circle once every 24 hours. (Effectively showing the Earth rotating under the pendulum.)

360 degrees times the sine of latitude.  At the poles it goes through full turn in a day.  At the equator it doesn't turn (relative to the local structures) at all.  Between them it takes more than a day to make a full turn.

You could use it to measure your latitude if you can't get a good look at the stars.

[Madscientist267]

Case in point. 

Steve

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Case in point. 

Steve

Actually, I see that some museums DO include an electromagnetic pumper to keep the amplitude up.

I prefer the ones that don't pump, though, because that way there's no argument that the precession is from anything but the earth turning.

[Madscientist267]

Oh now you're just rubbing it in... heheheh 

Steve

[dualsport54]

Thats what I figured, but wasn't sure (pendulum). I saw one as a kid and of course didn't 'get it', but have thought about it several times as an adult and figured it was some kind of mechanical excitation, but never knew because I had no idea what it was called.

As for the batteries, I couldn't agree with a 'newbie' more. The quotes serve as recognition and acknowledgement of sound logic and experience on the topics. Welcome to the board.

There's lots of goodies here. Lots of people with real world experience on just about every subject in the RE world.

Steve

    Thanks for the welcome to the forum resources Steve, but I've actually been here a very long time. Was interacting on the board... before the board... before this one. Just tend to acquire a different handle with each iteration of the board.

[artv]

Hi dualsport.....your saying that the copper and alumuinum are disolving ,but how long before they dissolve?My cells are just sitting in cut-off pop cans,.....~2" tall filled with water,..refill once a week,...so no worries of poisioning anything........thanx for the reply.....artv

[dualsport54]

   No way to say. Don't know how acidic/caustic your water is or what alloys of aluminum and copper your electrodes are. Fact that you're getting any current out of it shows that a reaction is occurring. Speed of reaction will be directly related to the current produced. (More current - faster reaction.) Dead short would of course give you max current and possibly show gasses being evolved from one electrode or the other as the metal decomposes. As suggested already... adding a bit of acid (like vinegar) will give the potential for a faster reaction. To find out what you want to know... best method is to set up several varying experiments and monitor them continually. (Watching duration, current flow, voltage if not a dead short & occasionally pull electrodes out and inspect for surface degradation.) Eventually one of the electrodes will dissolve completely. Suggest you set those experiments up in a plastic bowl that could hold all liquid in the test cells. (Just in case your electrolyte eats it's way out of the pop cans.) Have fun with it.

[artv]

Hi ....so a direct connection between the Pos terminal and the Neg terminal will let the max current flow ,thereby speeding up the dissolving of the electrodes? If so, will this time frame give an idea of cell life? My cells are just 14-2 house wire(stripped bare), piece of cotton(insulator), and alu foil in water. The only noticeable change after ~3 months is a build up of blue crystal like substance on copper and white on foil, and the water evaporating(wood stove). Voltage and amps have stayed the same all the while running 5 leds ,but only by refilling ,once evaporated.Just a small test to see if it can be made bigger.......thanx......artv

[JW]

~3 months is a build up of blue crystal like substance on copper

This is copper sulfate

JW