Author Topic: Wind driven pump to Pneumatic driven PMG  (Read 7943 times)

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MattM

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Wind driven pump to Pneumatic driven PMG
« on: December 11, 2010, 02:38:58 AM »
The hand made PMG's seem to be optimized for low RPM windmills which may or may not spend most of their time doing much useful work.  I would think that its feasible to mount an air compressor on the windmills and use wind energy to pressurize a tank.  In this way when an optimal pressure range is reached the air could be used for spinning up the PMG.  Once the optimal pressure is attained the tank would charge a pneumatic motor to spin the PMG which in turn would charge the battery.  In this way the PMG would be made to operate at its optimal range; performance would be more predictable than a wind driven PMG.  The air pump would provide the necessary resistance to keep the windmill rotor from free spinning prior to cut in; less wear and tear on the bearings.  Basically as soon as there is enough energy to turn the rotor the air compressor is providing positive pressure to the air tank.  During high winds the air tank would potentially be charged more quickly than the PMG could be spun up to discharge the pressure.  If that is the case a pressure relief spring would allow you to blow off excess pressure.  Or maybe you spin up a secondary PMG.  The air compressor would have a short line with quick connects to fasten to the hose that runs down the interior of the tower.  The quick connect would allow the hose to spin, preventing binds in the hose.

If the mathematical mode of the wind speeds driving the conventional windmill is generally well below cut-in on a typical PMG-based rotor, this would allow you to store up more of that now wasted energy and put it to use.  Instead of going directly into the battery the air compressor would be storing potential energy into an air tank.  With some 'mad' mechanical engineering the PMG would spend the majority of its time at its optimal RPM range.  It would be safe from over charging by using a pressure relief spring.

It all sounds so simple when I think about it.  Mathematically how would I prove that this concept of pneumatic-driven PMG would compare to a wind-driven PMG?  Am I wrong in thinking the mathematical mode of the wind speeds for the typical wind mill is going to be below cut-in?  If so, does anyone know what the consistent wind speeds are for the average windmill in the better than normal locations?

joestue

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Re: Wind driven pump to Pneumatic driven PMG
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 02:53:00 AM »
the optimal rpm of the pmg is an artificial constraint...


The end to end efficiency of an air compressor and motor is.. i have no idea, but the best *they* can do is about 60%, and that's for underground caverns at near constant temperature.. so i see no point.
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dnix71

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Re: Wind driven pump to Pneumatic driven PMG
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 12:02:52 PM »
The efficiency of compressed air back to mechanical energy is usually only about 1/3 or less. When you compress air you heat it. Unless the compressor, lines and storage tank are heavily insulated, you lose 1/2 of the energy you put into compressing the air right up front as waste heat. You can never get that back.

Then when you decompress the air you lose more potential energy because air cools as it is expanded. Unless you have a source of waste heat to inject to keep the temperature stable, you lose again as the tank and lines cool and the pressure drops faster than it would have otherwise.

The Amish are known to use mills for compressed air because they are allowed to use compressed air but not electricity. It isn't done for the sake of efficiency.

If you setup a mill to begin compressing air mechanically when the batteries are full or it reaches peak speed that might work, but it would make for a much more complex mill.

Look at the pics of the homemade mills here and you will see how difficult it would be to add another device to the mill without blocking the wind and also still raise and lower the whole contraption for required maintenance.

The power available in the air goes up with the cube of the wind speed. But the wind in a given area blows in a certain range of wind speeds only a certain amount of time. The best use of a mill needs to consider both. Plus the efficiency of a mill is not linear with wind speed. If you live where the wind blows steady, then sizing and designing a mill can be straight forward. Otherwise it may not be possible at all. You just built the biggest mill you can, get it as high up in the wind as you can and take what comes your way.

http://zebu.uoregon.edu/disted/ph162/l11.html  Has a good simple explanation of this. The 59% theoretical possible he mentions is called Betz' Law most places. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz%27_law

All that said, if you could pump water instead of compress air and store the water in a raised tank for off peak power production, you might get usable efficiencies because water is not compressible and it has much higher mass density than air.

Boss

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Re: Wind driven pump to Pneumatic driven PMG
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 03:59:13 PM »
Weldon Coldrion a member here is a proponent of air compressors mounted on wind mills, he has his shop pneumatic powered with wind power, literally.  He also has his water well pneumatically powered. He doesn't post much, but I understand from our many phone conversations that he reads here often, His other claims  to fame in my book are hexahedron towers   (not positive if it is hexa or which multiple) whichever, these are free standing towers. with air compressors mounted atop. Let me see if I can locate a link he showed me...
one link http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,138951.36.html

another http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_air_energy_storage
Nope, sorry can't find the company Weldon told me about, hopefully he will pipe in here
Another really cool project Weldon is doing might be of interest to the biofuel fiends here is a VW TDI powered helicopter, yeah Weldon is a TDI fiend, knows more about VWs than anyone I know.
Anyway don't give up hope on the air compressor mounted on a wind mill

 
Brian Rodgers
My sustainable lifestyle site http://outfitnm.com no ads, not selling anything either

Norm

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Re: Wind driven pump to Pneumatic driven PMG
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2010, 04:55:27 PM »
 
Weldon Coldrion a member here is a proponent of air compressors mounted on wind mills, he has his shop pneumatic powered with wind power, literally.  He also has his water well pneumatically powered. He doesn't post much, but I understand from our many phone conversations that he reads here often,

 
Is Weldon the one that has spring loaded compressors.?...the spring powers the compressor to a certain pressure ...therefore it can never pump up
the pressure higher than the spring pressure.

Would really like a posting from him showing in detail how it is done.

Norm.

Boss

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Re: Wind driven pump to Pneumatic driven PMG
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2010, 12:21:02 PM »
I talked with Weldon this morning, he gave me the link to this site http://www.airliftech.com/

It seems his air compressor wind mill has a spring loaded tail, but he doesn't have pics or links as he prefers to enter data on his computer with a claw hammer :o
His email is wlcoldiron55@yahoo.com although I suggest you leave your name and number as he is a great story teller and he prefers to call
Brian Rodgers
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MattM

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Re: Wind driven pump to Pneumatic driven PMG
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 07:42:48 PM »
Thanks for the replies, fellas!