Author Topic: DIY COGENERATOR  (Read 16486 times)

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Yianie123.

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DIY COGENERATOR
« on: December 21, 2010, 09:50:13 PM »
I am very interested in building a co-generator.  It seems like an easy concept.  I also have hydronic heatring.  The cooling water can be used to heating the floors.  The Lester engine would be great, but the size, and noise will be a problem.  The ideal unit will be a micro gas water cooled engine and generator (alternator).  Seems pretty simple until you try to purchase a ready made unit.  Has anyone designed or built one?  Any info will be greatly appreciated.

rossw

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2010, 05:40:25 AM »
Has anyone designed or built one?  Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Here's a few snaps of mine as I made it. It was a "re-tasked" old 4 cylinder 1.8 litre ford laser (ie, mazda) engine - all the fuel injection crap removed, single-point gas mixer (propane) added, lambda controller to adjust air/fuel ratio based on oxygen in exhaust, all the water pump and fluff removed and an external grundfos circ pump used instead. This baby provided all our domestic hotwater and hydronic heating while providing our electric power to charge batteries and run our major loads (washing machine, dishwasher etc).

http://house.albury.net.au/generator.htm

Yianie123.

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2010, 09:42:26 AM »
This is truly a piece of art.  Thank you for sharing but I think I was overwhelmed by your skills and talents.  I was hoping to go to a smaller and simpler scale.  Any additional ideas are welcomed.

JW

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2010, 02:39:47 PM »
Rossw,

That is really interesting controller, I would like you ask some questions about freq control using the throttle actuator. It appears you put the whole thing together using a micro controller. Really nice...

JW

rossw

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2010, 04:35:21 PM »
Rossw,

That is really interesting controller, I would like you ask some questions about freq control using the throttle actuator. It appears you put the whole thing together using a micro controller. Really nice...

I was originally going to do it all in the controller I made for the rest of the machine (that interfaces it to the inverter for autostart, autostop, counts engine hours and run time, monitors frequency, RPM, temperatures, oil pressure etc, does all the interlocks, and controls the water pump to recover as much usable heat as possible (even after the engine has stopped).

The reality was that the little atmel chip I used didn't have enough capacity for it, so I picked up a pre-packaged solution - an APECS controller from Woodward. They supplied the box, sensor and actuator as a kit. Full PID. Moderately expensive, but at the time it was the path of least resistance.

Given my time again, I'd probably do it differently and use a bigger processor and code both the AFR control and throttle feedback functions into the main control unit.

Here are some plots (out of the APECS itself) of the generator running


Starting from cold.



Changing from 500W to 2500W load (the dip in the middle of the screen)

The "jitter" is the air/fuel controller constantly adjusting the mix. I've improved on it since but it gives an idea. The engine RPM are on the right hand side - so the variation is actually quite small given this is a "suppressed-zero" graph.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 06:17:16 PM by JW »

bob g

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2010, 05:44:19 PM »
we that are heavily involved with cogen and trigen are shifting our focus to include the gaseous fueled prime movers
mainly because of the epa ruling here in the states, and now being adopted in canada after the jan 1, 2011.

i like the reapplication of an automotive engine for use in cogeneration.

i am redirecting my R&D away from 100% diesel to either dual fuel operation using natural gas, and also toward the use
of either a volvo 4 cylinder, nissan h20, or one of the other various available small 4 cylinder gas engine's.

natural gas prices here in the states reportedly are to remain stable and relatively low in price over the next 20 years.

its doubtful that refined fuels such as diesel and gasoline will do anything buy go way up over the same time period.

bob g
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

JW

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2010, 07:10:00 PM »
Quote
The "jitter" is the air/fuel controller constantly adjusting the mix.

Thats exactly how its suppose to work... Your rpm, dip of 20rpm when a 2.5kw load cuts in is really good...

Quote
so I picked up a pre-packaged solution - an APECS controller from Woodward. They supplied the box, sensor and actuator as a kit. Full PID. Moderately expensive, but at the time it was the path of least resistance.

Im definitly going to look into that, I was hopeing there was a Kit involved, thanks so much for the great info.

Also, thanks to the original poster for this inquiry into the co-gen topic.

JW

harley1782000

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2010, 02:08:19 PM »
Bob

Be carefull about the prices on natural gas.  If the price of fuels goes up the gas company's pass the buck down to the consumers.  I was using gas up intill last year when gas was topping in around 3 bucks a gallon.  Then my propane guy hit us the consumers with a nasty increase on propane and a delivery fee on top of that.  Most of the company's in our area are doing that so just keep that in mine.

Jim

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2010, 07:20:06 PM »
we that are heavily involved with cogen and trigen are shifting our focus to include the gaseous fueled prime movers
mainly because of the epa ruling here in the states, and now being adopted in canada after the jan 1, 2011.

i like the reapplication of an automotive engine for use in cogeneration.

i am redirecting my R&D away from 100% diesel to either dual fuel operation using natural gas, and also toward the use
of either a volvo 4 cylinder, nissan h20, or one of the other various available small 4 cylinder gas engine's.

natural gas prices here in the states reportedly are to remain stable and relatively low in price over the next 20 years.

its doubtful that refined fuels such as diesel and gasoline will do anything buy go way up over the same time period.

bob g

I had heard the same thing about the natural gas supply and prices,  then heard about some of the drilling companies being investigated for using "undisclosed (nasty)"  fracting chemicals and how they are contaminating ground water.   Law suites and preventing some further well drilling may be in the future.   Would/could result in increases of natural gas prices.

harley1782000

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2010, 07:53:26 PM »
Well here in PA, They have destroy so many drinking wells it is not funny.  Most of the company's here moved out because PA was nailing them with fines on top of fines.  I am sorry but natural gas fracturing needs to be shut down period till they can find a safer way to get the gas.  If you ask me when you put a chemical in the ground that you know allready that it will poison the water and what ever else it comes in contact with, why would you?????  They know this but they don't care.

Jim

zap

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2010, 11:42:04 AM »
Seems pretty simple until you try to purchase a ready made unit.  Has anyone designed or built one?  Any info will be greatly appreciated.

Google "truck apu" or "otr apu" or "idle reduction technologies"

They are not exactly co-gen but the waste heat could easily be captured.  I've always thought these units plus WVO would be heaven on earth :)
They've been around for quite a while now and they're not cheap at all!

Here are a few examples.
http://www.powerpacapu.com/

http://www.centramatic.com/Page.aspx?page=APU%20Engine%20Detail

The Tripac from Thermo King:
http://www.thermoking.com/tripac/
and a video about it on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfyiK-aeC2s


Bytesmiths

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 02:26:47 PM »
natural gas prices here in the states reportedly are to remain stable and relatively low in price over the next 20 years.

I don't buy that for a second!

As petroleum declines, other energy sources will need to take up the slack. Coal-to-liquids will supply some, but coal is nearing peak production, as well. As a nasty greenhouse-gas-producing fuel, coal is being frowned upon for electricity generation, and new capacity is being built for -- you guessed it -- natgas!

I think anywhere you turn, fossil energy is going to do nothing but go up and up. Some kinds may have temporary advantage over others, but we hairless monkeys have an insatiable appetite for energy, and a great deal of creativity in using up new sources as rapidly as we deplete others.

That's why I'm sticking to diesel... and planning a canola planting or two... :-)

Bytesmiths

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2011, 02:29:22 PM »
As I mentioned in another thread, consider a ship's generator.

You can often find them on mariana bulletin boards, or boating classified newspapers.

They typically come with a heat exchanger instead of a radiator -- ready made for co-gen!

Bruce S

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2011, 05:38:04 PM »
natural gas prices here in the states reportedly are to remain stable and relatively low in price over the next 20 years.

I don't buy that for a second!

As petroleum declines, other energy sources will need to take up the slack. Coal-to-liquids will supply some, but coal is nearing peak production, as well. As a nasty greenhouse-gas-producing fuel, coal is being frowned upon for electricity generation, and new capacity is being built for -- you guessed it -- natgas!

I think anywhere you turn, fossil energy is going to do nothing but go up and up. Some kinds may have temporary advantage over others, but we hairless monkeys have an insatiable appetite for energy, and a great deal of creativity in using up new sources as rapidly as we deplete others.

That's why I'm sticking to diesel... and planning a canola planting or two... :-)

Yannie123 my apologies for a slight diversion.
bob g is actually pretty correct. AND since he's doing tri-fuel systems I'd think he's got his finger on the pulse of costs.

The "peak oil" think interesting. It keeps changing, AND I will say the amount available is NO reason to waste, I'm for conservation, conservation then alternatives then main stream.

Having said that, the biggest reason for diesel is efficiency, they are modestly 20% more efficient than gasoline powered ICE units.
Most recent numbers available are COAL: 168 years of current easy to get stuff. Dirty ? sure but if it's what you got and I see 1/2 mile train cars full of it for power production. NOT producible without a few 10000 years   
NatlGas 167 years of the easy to  get to stuff. Nearly reproducible by waste mounds producing a byproduct that's 80% the same, which is good twofold, gets the trash out of the air and fuel as a byproduct.

These aren't gubberment numbers these are number of proven reserves in the USA.
Both engines have their good points and bad.
Gas powered ones can run at temperature where diesel is G-E-L-L-O without the additives of more kerosene so its cold point is much lower. Plus if it's more power you need to recoup power lost from alternative fuels , you can switch back to the old days of higher compression ratios.
Go grab a flat=head engine and check it's compression.

Diesel can take a much wider range of "oils"; heck the old Kaiser-Jeep deuce-1/2s  had injectors and instructions where you could mix dove soap and urine and it'd run, once you got it kicked over. They'd run on everything oil based right up to and including JP4.

Both engines, with the right "adjustments" can be made to run over a wide range of fuels.

AND now back to your regularly scheduled commercials  ;D

Bruce S
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Bytesmiths

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2011, 06:30:00 PM »

Most recent numbers available are COAL: 168 years of current easy to get stuff...
NatlGas 167 years of the easy to  get to stuff...
These aren't gubberment numbers these are number of proven reserves in the USA....

Do you have a reference for either of these figures? Because the numbers I've been seeing are VASTLY LOWER than that, with some sources (Julian Darley, High Noon for Natural Gas: the New Energy Crisis) calling for Peak Gas within a decade. The "easy to get" natgas is already nearly gone -- otherwise, why would they be fracking and building LNG tanker terminals?

One thing Darley notes is that natgas does not have as smooth a Hubbert curve as petroleum. It tends to come out at a steady rate until, suddenly, it is gone. So "peak natgas" may well mean "no natgas any more."

As I mentioned, coal will have increasing pressure as other fossil fuels decline. What happens if 300 million electric cars are produced, for example?

We need to be thinking total petajoules or quads buried in the ground here, not types of fuel. When the cheapest fossil fuel goes into decline, the next most expensive one will be pressured to take up the slack, until it goes into decline. If nearly all the petroleum load is transferred to natgas and coal, you'll be amazed how quickly they'll go away.

bob g

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2011, 07:13:12 PM »
here is my position on the topic

cogen is vastly superior and more responsible that simple engine driven electrical generation

micro cogeneration is more efficient and more responsible than grid power, (generally speaking of coarse)

very few systems are completely self sufficient, most will need to have some form of back up power, beit
solar, wind, and micro hydro (where there are seasonal declines in output)

so if you are going to have to resort to using an engine driven genset periodically to back up your offgrid system
then why not do it as efficiently and responsibly as possible?

a diesel fired cogen generally is not more efficient than a gas fired cogen, even though its engine is more efficient at making
mechanical power, however it generally is a more robust and longer lived prime mover.  the downside to diesel is its emissions are
a bit tougher to deal with on a small scale.

my thinking is why not use the cheapest, cleanest and most available fuel when it makes economic sense to do so? and retain the ability to switch back to diesel, veggie or whatever oils if they make better economic sense.

btw, the dirtiest cogen is likely more environmentally responsible than the best stand alone electrical power generator, beit coal, oil, or gas fired.

the DOE and EPA have recognized this as a fact and have come up with output based emission standards that give credit to the fact that cogen properly deployed is cleaner than any other engine driven power generation source (fuel btu input vs power/heat btu output).

until such time that solar panels, wind turbines, and especially battery technology comes down in price sufficiently that they can not only provide the electrical power but also provide for the heat/cooling loads of a typical home cogen is the clear winner especially if one considers it as nothing more than a part of a total system or...

we quit thinking of the prime mover as a producer of electricity but rather a producer of heat!

it is not much of a stretch to argue the point that a typical power generator is 3-4 times better at making heat than it is at making
electricity.  when you consider this fact, it doesn't take long to view the electrical power generated a the waste product that is easily transported an used.

i don't see cogen as being irresponsible at all, quite the contrary i see it as the clear leader as we go through what will be seen as a paradigm shift in the way we live.

anytime you take a generator that at best is likely ~20% efficient at converting fuel btu's to a useful product, and then redesign the unit to effectively repurpose it to being a cogen, and see overall efficiency going well over 80%  you know you are on the right track to environmental responsibility.

bob g
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

Yianie123.

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2011, 07:52:05 PM »
This is a very interesting.  But lets talk about costs.  The 5kw generator I just purchased will burn 2.5 gal of diesel per 8hr period, 50% load.  My electrical cost during the summer with the A/C on on average of 2hrs per day is about $1.75/per day.  You can not make biodiesel for less the $ .80   So if I am not mistaken, environmental responsibility and economical responsibility seem to be on different pages.  Is there a way  a co-gen can ever compete with the utility company economically?

bob g

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2011, 08:25:55 PM »
this gets to be a very complex subject, one that we have been debating over at microcogen with some vigor
for quite some  time.

"can cogen compete with the power company" 

answer, no, maybe, yes  ... depending on your criteria that will be considered

1. yes it can compete favorably when it comes to emission, generally the emissions are much lower per kw/hr
or btu/hr, or however you want to quantify the product of the cogen

2. no you cannot compete with the power company based on kw/hrs/gallon of diesel fuel, they buy their fuel
for much less to start with, and their generators are much more efficient that our smaller ones.

3. yes you can compete if you burn an alternate fuel that has a lower cost, such as nat gas in some area's of the country
being dramatically lower than diesel fuels  ,btu/dollar basis.

in order to do so you must do the following

1. recover all of the available excess waste heat from the cooling system, that is if the thermostat maintains the engine temp
at 195 degrees F, any excess heat that would otherwise be dumped via a radiator must be recovered and put to use either heating water, providing for space heating, or charging a thermal mass (all easily done), and/or possibly driving an absorption cooler/chiller (more complex), and

2. you must recover ~ 75% of the waste heat that would normally be dumped out the exhaust, and put it to the same uses as outlined above, this is somewhat more complex but doable for the diy'er.

3. you must determine the sweet spot for the prime mover, that is where it runs the most efficient and cleanest, generally this is
somewhere around 90% of its full load rating. you must then maintain that loading when the unit is in operation.

4. the cogen must be sized appropriately for the loads it will service, so that when it is running all of its available Btu's and electrical output is put to use and not simply dumped. generally speaking for most cogen this is best done in the colder months of the year which coincidentally works out it is the darkest time of the year, and the time of the year where folks are generally couped up inside
and place the largest draw on a system. (more heat requirements, more lighting, more tv/stereo, more refrigeration, cooking, washer and drier etc)

if the area of the country you live in for instance has perhaps 4 months of dark, rain, windy, snow weather, and you have a family
with a couple kids, it is easy to determine and size a cogen so that it can be most effective and compete very well with the utility company "if"  you can get decent fuel rates. the rates don't have to be stupendously low, just reasonable

based on rates for natural gas in central kansas for december 2010, i can produce electrical power for a bit less than half of what the power company charges for electricity, "only" if when the cogen is operating in cogen mode, and all of the heat is used properly.  the cost of production includes the price of the fuel, first cost of the prime mover, depreciation, repairs/maintenance and depreciation of a battery/inverter system to cover lighting loads when the cogen is shut down.

cogen is site specific,fuel and fuel cost specific, and application specific, must like wind power... it isn't the answer for everyone certainly, however it might be the answer for a lot of folks, and if all one is considering is the environmental impact when it comes to cogen vs engine driven genset, cogen is the clear winner running away.

bob g
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

Bruce S

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2011, 11:03:50 AM »

Most recent numbers available are COAL: 168 years of current easy to get stuff...
NatlGas 167 years of the easy to  get to stuff...
These aren't gubberment numbers these are number of proven reserves in the USA....

Do you have a reference for either of these figures? Because the numbers I've been seeing are VASTLY LOWER than that, with some sources (Julian Darley, High Noon for Natural Gas: the New Energy Crisis) calling for Peak Gas within a decade. The "easy to get" natgas is already nearly gone -- otherwise, why would they be fracking and building LNG tanker terminals?

One thing Darley notes is that natgas does not have as smooth a Hubbert curve as petroleum. It tends to come out at a steady rate until, suddenly, it is gone. So "peak natgas" may well mean "no natgas any more."

As I mentioned, coal will have increasing pressure as other fossil fuels decline. What happens if 300 million electric cars are produced, for example?

We need to be thinking total petajoules or quads buried in the ground here, not types of fuel. When the cheapest fossil fuel goes into decline, the next most expensive one will be pressured to take up the slack, until it goes into decline. If nearly all the petroleum load is transferred to natgas and coal, you'll be amazed how quickly they'll go away.
The book you mentioned is from 2004 , I'll follow that with this one from 2010. http://books.google.com/books?id=OJmtn3rOxH0C&pg=PA214&dq=Julian+Darley,+High+Noon+for+Natural+Gas:+the+New+Energy+Crisis&hl=en&ei=LkIjTcCZK4mVnAeKq9CNDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg

Using google there are numerous sites that will show the numbers I typed in. Some even higher , some even lower.
http://www.green-energy-efficient-homes.com/years-of-coal.html
http://www.postcarbon.org/article/193411-peak-coal-is-moving-closer-too#

Are just a few examples.

Bruce S
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Bruce S

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2011, 11:11:29 AM »
this gets to be a very complex subject, one that we have been debating over at microcogen with some vigor
for quite some  time.

"can cogen compete with the power company" 

answer, no, maybe, yes  ... depending on your criteria that will be considered

1. yes it can compete favorably when it comes to emission, generally the emissions are much lower per kw/hr
or btu/hr, or however you want to quantify the product of the cogen

2. no you cannot compete with the power company based on kw/hrs/gallon of diesel fuel, they buy their fuel
for much less to start with, and their generators are much more efficient that our smaller ones.

3. yes you can compete if you burn an alternate fuel that has a lower cost, such as nat gas in some area's of the country
being dramatically lower than diesel fuels  ,btu/dollar basis.

in order to do so you must do the following

1. recover all of the available excess waste heat from the cooling system, that is if the thermostat maintains the engine temp
at 195 degrees F, any excess heat that would otherwise be dumped via a radiator must be recovered and put to use either heating water, providing for space heating, or charging a thermal mass (all easily done), and/or possibly driving an absorption cooler/chiller (more complex), and

2. you must recover ~ 75% of the waste heat that would normally be dumped out the exhaust, and put it to the same uses as outlined above, this is somewhat more complex but doable for the diy'er.

3. you must determine the sweet spot for the prime mover, that is where it runs the most efficient and cleanest, generally this is
somewhere around 90% of its full load rating. you must then maintain that loading when the unit is in operation.

4. the cogen must be sized appropriately for the loads it will service, so that when it is running all of its available Btu's and electrical output is put to use and not simply dumped. generally speaking for most cogen this is best done in the colder months of the year which coincidentally works out it is the darkest time of the year, and the time of the year where folks are generally couped up inside
and place the largest draw on a system. (more heat requirements, more lighting, more tv/stereo, more refrigeration, cooking, washer and drier etc)

if the area of the country you live in for instance has perhaps 4 months of dark, rain, windy, snow weather, and you have a family
with a couple kids, it is easy to determine and size a cogen so that it can be most effective and compete very well with the utility company "if"  you can get decent fuel rates. the rates don't have to be stupendously low, just reasonable

based on rates for natural gas in central kansas for december 2010, i can produce electrical power for a bit less than half of what the power company charges for electricity, "only" if when the cogen is operating in cogen mode, and all of the heat is used properly.  the cost of production includes the price of the fuel, first cost of the prime mover, depreciation, repairs/maintenance and depreciation of a battery/inverter system to cover lighting loads when the cogen is shut down.

cogen is site specific,fuel and fuel cost specific, and application specific, must like wind power... it isn't the answer for everyone certainly, however it might be the answer for a lot of folks, and if all one is considering is the environmental impact when it comes to cogen vs engine driven genset, cogen is the clear winner running away.

bob g
Bob g : very nice thorough post.
 I look forward to your vapor fuel tests and posting. I read with great interest your thoughts on this and could not agree more.
Now that you're in Kansas you're within driving distance :-). I have family that lives close to Manhattan,KS and Kansas city,MO. plus my Linux mentor lives out in McAlester, KS.

Thanks;
 Bruce S
 
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Bytesmiths

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2011, 01:38:43 PM »

Most recent numbers available are COAL: 168 years of current easy to get stuff...
NatlGas 167 years of the easy to  get to stuff...
These aren't gubberment numbers these are number of proven reserves in the USA....

Do you have a reference for either of these figures? Because the numbers I've been seeing are VASTLY LOWER than that...

Using google there are numerous sites that will show the numbers I typed in. Some even higher , some even lower.
http://www.green-energy-efficient-homes.com/years-of-coal.html

That link doesn't seem to really "support" your numbers. It starts out, "I've heard that there's a supply of 300 years of coal left." That doesn't seem very scientific or authoritative to me!

In fact, the article then goes along with what I was saying: "most estimates of coal supply assume growth in demand to be steady. But as oil supplies dwindle it's possible that demand for coal will increase sharply as dirtier fuels are brought in to replace vanishing, marginally cleaner fuels."

As for the other link:

Quote
http://www.postcarbon.org/article/193411-peak-coal-is-moving-closer-too#

I don't see anything in there at all supporting your numbers. In fact, quite the opposite: the article (titled "Peak Coal Is Moving Closer Too") cites China's "decision" to "cap" their domestic coal production while increasing imports, and speculate that "what we are witnessing is the actual peaking of China's domestic coal production..."

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't believe your numbers, particularly the "easy to get stuff." We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

Bruce S

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Re: DIY COGENERATOR
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2011, 01:46:49 PM »
I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't believe your numbers, particularly the "easy to get stuff." We may have to agree to disagree on this one.
I too am trying to back off hijacking this post  ;D.
If you really wish I can pull the websites that to get the numbers from, but would be better to let this post get back to what Yannie123 is posting about.
Rather send them via PM than fill up this post.


Cheers
Bruce S
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