Author Topic: magic smoke from inverter (Read 9594 times)

Steve Trumann · « **on:** December 27, 2010, 07:20:56 PM »

I have a 48 volt inverter, been setting for years. Hooked it up the other day and the magic smoke came out. The inverter is from the 80's. Company name is Best Energy System. I've lost track of the manual through the years, can't find them on the web. any body know anything about them? or have manuals or spare controller board?
Thanks Steve Trumann

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 29, 2010, 03:18:15 PM »

I'd just start taking screws out and finding the fried components. If it was violent enough, it was probably the final output stage transistors or wave shapers. Depends on the design. Early inverters were a bit simpler than they are today, so it shouldn't be too hard to find out what happened.

Post a couple pix to help us get an idea of what you have.

Steve

ghurd · « **Reply #2 on:** December 29, 2010, 03:33:44 PM »

"been setting for years"
Could be electrolytic caps. They "dry out".
G-

jvnn · « **Reply #3 on:** December 29, 2010, 05:50:43 PM »

How coincidental.

My inverter just did the same thing a week ago.
I'll post pics and info when I get the covers off.
-Joel

coldspot · « **Reply #4 on:** December 29, 2010, 07:59:46 PM »

"Best Energy System"
Humm.,.,
I also have one from them also an 80's model, (best as I can tell)
But mine is for a 32 Volt system, 3,000 Watt Con., 10,000 Surge.
I have never got around to testing it, I hope the smoke is still inside!!
I'll be following this post.
Sorry about your luck!

bob g · « **Reply #5 on:** December 29, 2010, 08:16:25 PM »

Best was bought out by exide...
exide sold it to powerware...
and heaven knows who owns the rights to Best now

however i can tell you from experience, whoever owns the rights will never release
schematics, even the manuals are obscenely expensive.

not even sure if there is a repair facility around to repair the older stuff.

having said that, the Best units were about the most bullet proof of their day, many were rebranded by
folks like HP, Compaq, and others.

i agree with Ghurd, it probably has a dry capacitor that smoked, and probably damaged other components

forget about finding replacement boards, even if they were available they would be priced at insane levels.

i called exide for a best ups 3phase 12kva inverter manual,, after much complaining they located one, all it would cost me
was 1800 dollars plus change! oh yes plus shipping and handling of 30 bucks iirc.

talk about "hey if i told you, i would have to kill you" geesh

no i didn't buy the manual, and yes i am sure it went from her hands to the dumpster after i got off the phone.

bob g

Steve Trumann · « **Reply #6 on:** December 29, 2010, 09:35:57 PM »

First off, Thanks to every one for checking out my problem. The magic smoke came from a 47uf@20v tantalum cap. It's off of the 8 volt regulator. In cleaning the board,I think I scraped off some foil circuit. Also found a cold solder joint in the wave generator side of the board. I went to Radio Shack today and bought another cap, but not tantalum. Will solder it in tomorrow and give it another try.

Thanks again, Steve Trumann

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #7 on:** December 30, 2010, 09:25:21 AM »

Eeek.. "scraped off some foil circuit" ?!!

What are you using to clean this thing? A knife?

I clean main boards (almost robotically..

) for a living... might I suggest the following for future reference -

1 - Compressed air to get rid of all of the dust bunnies and their offspring.

2 - Follow this with anhydrous (99%) isopropyl alcohol sprayed on with yer everyday handy dandy spray bottle.

3 - Scrub with a horse hair brush, adding alcohol as needed to keep it 'wet'.

4 - Rinse thoroughly with more alcohol.

5 - Allow to dry thoroughly (a preheated toaster oven on 200 deg F works well)

Don't put the board in the oven when it's cold and then turn it on - two reasons:

A - While it is heating up, the temperature can spike when the elements are on until it stabilizes - potentially damaging the board.

B - Alcohol is flammable. Shut the oven down, then put the board in to avoid the possibility of fire.

FWIW

Steve

DanG · « **Reply #8 on:** December 30, 2010, 10:45:50 AM »

^^ compressed (canned) air - Air tanks, hoses & nozzles are miniature thunderstorms, complete with condensing moisture and static electricity. I staggered a motherboard righteously thinking I could do a gentle air sweep even even with non-rubber hoses...

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 30, 2010, 10:54:14 AM »

Eh, never had a problem with it, although yes, technically you are correct.

I use a regular old air compressor... hundreds of motherboards for computers, never popped anything.

Under the right circumstances, I have demonstrated the ability of compressed air to generate static, but it takes the right materials to really set up the charge.

If anybody is worried about it, ground both the board (to it's usual ground points) and the nozzle (or can as the case may be) and don't let the nozzle get closer than about an inch to the board and you should be perfectly fine. I myself don't ground either, just take the usual precautions that you, the board, and the nozzle are at the same potential. This is easy to do, just hold the board in one hand, the nozzle in the other.

Steve

jvnn · « **Reply #10 on:** December 30, 2010, 02:17:55 PM »

Alright, here's the poop on my smoke fest.
Tripp-Lite PowerVerter Ultra compact inverter 3000 watts (12V)

Are these the cause or the resulting damage?

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #11 on:** December 30, 2010, 05:03:16 PM »

I can second those appearances...

MOSFETs are great until they get irritated... then they have a tendency to take a bunch of other crap with them!

Check them all - if one shorted on one phase, the FETs for the other phase may be damaged as well when the control chip turned them on... and even the chip itself along with anything in it's path!

Looks like you got at least a couple of the drive resistors in the way of the train when it derailed... and the other tranny, likely a totem pole driver?

I'd be willing to bet those caps were shot before it all hit the fan and that's what triggered this whole thing.

Got yer work cut out for you if you want to bring it back on line...

Steve

ghurd · « **Reply #12 on:** December 30, 2010, 05:46:39 PM »

SteveT and Jvnn.
I think both you guys are out of luck.

Steve, I do not believe tants fail from 'being old'. Whatever problem popped it will pop the new one, and there may be other things that smoked and don't show it.

Jvnn, everytime I change the caps and fets, the new ones pop too. Your luck may be better than mine.

I don't even try to fix inverters with parts that look like that any more because my success rate is near 0.
G-

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #13 on:** December 30, 2010, 06:08:35 PM »

Agreed.

As far as the popped caps, I was referring to Jvnn's festivities. Looks like your waveshapers may have survived... FWIW...

On SteveT's, the tantalum will likely go again (even though it's being replaced with an electrolytic).

Something else is definitely wrong...

That's the big problem with this is that it snowballs quickly when it all goes down, and it can take out so much that isn't even visible that it makes it extremely difficult if not impossible to repair. All it takes in such high current circuitry is one missed defect, and everything you replaced can go right back up in front of your very eyes, if not taking even more with it the second time (components weakened by the first bang)...

Sucks for you guys, but I gotta agree with ghurd on this. Scrap them for parts like 'roids and what not for another project. I don't throw anything away, just recycle it. I got a baggie full of about 20 popped (some visibly!) IRFZ44Ns if anybody wants em!

Necklace? LMAO

Steve

Steve Trumann · « **Reply #14 on:** December 30, 2010, 06:20:40 PM »

Hi all, I put an new cap in today. Got nothing out of it at all. Guess it took more than just the cap. It was a good inverter when it worked, I built a 3 car garage with it as my only power source. All that saw work never phased it a bit. Had to replace the same board once years ago. One of the main scr's about 10 years ago. In the past 10 years only turned it on once in a while to make sure it still worked. Now when I need it, it decides to die. Got the wind turbine up, the solar panels up, their itching to make power. But nothing to use the power now. Some times the cards just don't fall right.
Steve Trumann

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 30, 2010, 06:33:12 PM »

SteveT -

Take some pics of the board (both sides) if feasible and pop 'em up here... It's old enough that we may be able to scratch up something collectively.

I had an old Topaz UPS I got a long time ago that didn't even use MOSFETs, bipolar thru 'n thru... Thing was fairly simplistic on the inside... Pretty much just brute force driving a transformer.

Seems a shame to have a piece of equipment such as that go to the boneyard... The only thing that could potentially save you here is it's age... Age=Simplicity as a general rule.. None of that SMT crap etc.

Steve

jvnn · « **Reply #16 on:** December 31, 2010, 08:10:33 PM »

Thanks for the advice Steve and G,
I pretty much knew that would be the answer, but my wife thinks I can fix anything so she wanted a second opinion.
Without schematics and a bunch of time I can only look for visible damage and I know there's bound to be more problems there than I can see.
Kind of a shame the thing is only like 6 years old. I wouldn't think temperature extremes during storage would be a factor so I guess I have to chalk it up to the cheapest possible caps.

Always fun to show pics of the damage though

This is more or less my area of skill, I'm working as an electronic tech at Baker Instrument (AC motor testers).

-Joel

fabricator · « **Reply #17 on:** January 02, 2011, 08:57:15 AM »

Check out ebay for AIMS inverters they are pretty inexpensive and almost bullet proof, made in Japan excellent quality, I do regular smoke tests on all my electronics

That avatar aint just a random picture.

freejuice · « **Reply #18 on:** January 02, 2011, 04:45:35 PM »

Curse you Fabricator advocating those inverters!
You cost me some money buying a AIMS inverter!
I love mine and it was well worth it to be able to grid tie the inverter into a transfer switch!

fabricator · « **Reply #19 on:** January 02, 2011, 04:51:16 PM »

That's one of my favorite pastimes, making other people spend money.

Steve Trumann · « **Reply #20 on:** January 04, 2011, 09:17:42 AM »

This is a bit of update. Got some time yesterday to check out the inverter more closely.Following the 48v+ trail, it quits at the choke. But looking at what it's supplying, I'm going to replace the 8volt reg. and switching amp to, also will check a couple more caps in the area too. Plus there is another board with the 8v reg. and switching amp, will replace them too. Another interesting point I found is, it's a 48 volt inverter, there are only 3 points with -48 volt ground, every thing else is -24v ground.
Here's some pic of the blown section.

Steve Trumann

Steve Trumann · « **Reply #21 on:** January 04, 2011, 09:57:46 AM »

Coldspot, Do you still have that inverter? You must be a Jacobs fan. I've repaired and copied a few of them back in my day. Any way if you've still got it, does it have the big power xfmr in it? If so does it have to big stud diodes on top of it mounted on a copper strip connected to chokes? Mine are corroded pretty bad, can't read the numbers. They will be the next thing to go bad.
Are you interested in selling the inverter? Wouldn't take a lot to change my system to a 36 volt system.
Steve Trumann

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #22 on:** January 04, 2011, 11:26:05 AM »

Yeah, thats about what I expected...

Looks like she's been sitting in the 'elements' a bit too long. She's got some age on her.

I would clean ALL of those connections as much as possible as I was describing, the entire board, and then retouch each and every one. Your failure almost definitely came from a solder joint that either opened or bridged with another to cause the whole thing to go askew.

Repair/replace any components/traces that you can't get a clean copper trail from.

Remove, clean, and re-seat any chips (or other components) that are socketed.

Don't apply ANY power until you have gone through everything with a fine tooth comb, and even then, there still may be damage that isn't evident.

At least you're dealing with what I call 'real' electronics; parts big enough to see and manipulate, and there aren't any hidden traces running through the center of the board to worry about.

Good luck man, you've got your work cut out for you, but it may pay off.

I don't think you mentioned it, but being that it's a 48V inverter, I'm sure it's up there... what's this thing's rated output? And do you have a pic of the entire cabinet with the side off?

Reason I ask, is I had the chance (if I could have afforded it at the time) to get a 15KW 48V UPS back in the early 90's that had been just taken out of service. I remember being in love with the idea of owning it at the time (I was all of 18 - whoops you didn't see that haha), and I remember the transformer inside that thing was as big as a beach ball!

Things have definitely changed since then!

Steve

coldspot · « **Reply #23 on:** January 05, 2011, 11:36:40 PM »

Steve-
"the big power xfmr in it" ??
I'd say the transformer is big, 80 lbs total !!!
Yes, I still have the Best inverter and the old Jacobs & its controller, also the Edison cells
Check my diary, should be pictures and such

I'd sell any or all,
( i have no place to play/test, don't know why I love this stuff and continue to research and build/collect)
{must b as crazy as the X's say & think}, (can't help who u R)

PS: I'm in south East Idaho, zip 83402

Steve Trumann · « **Reply #24 on:** January 08, 2011, 10:47:04 AM »

Ok, I'll try to post again. The inverter is 48 volt input. 110, 220 volt output. 5kw cont. 10kw surge. I checked out you post on the Jacobs system. I'm envious. When I first got started in wind power, I lived in Ill. Not that far from you. Now I'm in Nc. I couldn't read the name plate on the inverter. Is it rated for 220 or just 110? If that system were mine, I would fix it up and get her back in the air. Any way, back to reality. Just in case I don't get this inverter fixed, I've been checking out other inverters. 2 Outback stacked inverters would equal what I've got. But way to expensive. The next closes thing is the Aims inverter. I would like to hear some input on the 48 volt Aims inverters.
Her's a pic of the Best inverter.
Steve Trumann

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 08, 2011, 12:29:31 PM »

Heh yeah now thats what I'm talkin about...

Definitely old school. Hope you get it running again man... What can I say, I'm a sucker for nostalgia, especially when it works!

Steve

coldspot · « **Reply #26 on:** January 08, 2011, 07:03:36 PM »

Steve-
"I lived in Ill. Not that far from you. Now I'm in Nc. I couldn't read the name plate on the inverter"
Ill. Not that far from IDAHO?
Idaho, The Rocky Mnts, WEST of yellowstone!!, One more state west and I hit the Pacific ocean.
Name plate_ BEST energy systems

yea, If!
I'd put up any of the half doz or so DONE turbines
A place for a pole?

?
still working on that one
:I

Steve Trumann · « **Reply #27 on:** January 09, 2011, 09:55:29 PM »

I replaced suspected bad parts on the board and gave it a try today. no smoke. Just a low battery light. Battery was not low. One step closer. Hard to figure what's what without a schematic.
Steven Trumann

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #28 on:** January 10, 2011, 10:08:06 AM »

Hey, progress is progress...

Does it function at least at this point (albeit with a low battery light) ?

Steve

freejuice · « **Reply #29 on:** January 10, 2011, 11:15:16 AM »

Quote from: Steve Trumann on January 08, 2011, 10:47:04 AM

The next closes thing is the Aims inverter. I would like to hear some input on the 48 volt Aims inverters.
Her's a pic of the Best inverter.
Steve Trumann (Attachment Link)

Steve,
FWIW I have an AIMS industrial 48v 7000 watt inverter. I have it grid tied to a transfer switch. While I've only had it a short while I dont have a bit of trouble out of it.
They do trip out when 60 volts are reached, so I start dumping at about 55 volts anything around 57 volts with this 17 footer will surge past the inverter and trip it out.
I probaby need more resistors on the dump side...

Mine has 2, 75 amp DC breakers built in

Steve Trumann · « **Reply #30 on:** January 10, 2011, 07:39:54 PM »

No it doesn't function. But having that light lit is a good sign. Been working on 2 different dump controller lately. I built the Ghurd controller, it works fine. But doesn't like my fets. So I hooked up the Tri Star 60 to the batteries while ago. Sure enough it said I had low battery voltage. So I guess I need to up my Figures of what battery full voltage should be. Maybe there is hope yet.

I've probably looked at that aims inverter 50 times this week. Is it 2 banks of 115 or really 230 volts? How are you making it grid tie?
I need a strong inverter to run my well pump. It's 250 feet down another 100ft from house.
Steve Trumann

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Author Topic: magic smoke from inverter (Read 9594 times)