Author Topic: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)  (Read 12144 times)

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Madscientist267

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Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« on: January 04, 2011, 05:59:16 AM »
Ok, I know this seems like a beat to death subject, but I've been earnestly studying the phenomena and have some more input in regard to the topic...

This 'desulfation' concept as it's been getting viewed I think may be getting a bad rap from improper application. Here's my hypothesis as to why:

First, the surrounding concepts (for those not up to speed)... If you've been around lead-acid for numerous years, and aren't up for the refresher course (or just a good read), then skip to Just above Phase "5".

It's known by the 'hard timers' that the lead-acid chemistry really has 4 stages of charging, whether we choose to accommodate for them or not. They are:

1 - Recovery. This is a very current limited charge rate that when applied properly, prevents (further) damage to a deeply ( < ~60% SoC) discharged cell. Partly due to 'soft' sulfation, there is less active surface area on the plates, which can lead to the areas that are more conductive 'charging' before the rest of the plate.

This can have 1 of 2 effects, and usually a combination. A, loss of active plate material due to premature bubbling knocking some of the soft sulfate off of the plate, and two, further weakening of an already fragile structure susceptible to warping due to higher current with less mechanical support, again resulting in lost plate material. Worst case scenarios can even lead to the active material becoming lodged between plates and shorting the cell.

The recovery phase prevents as much damage as possible by severely limiting the physical activity that can occur within the cell. This can take 12 - 24 hours at preferably a MAXIMUM of C/20 rate, preferably much lower.

The end of this phase is triggered by the cell(s) reaching a predetermined voltage. The problem with this phase is, it is probably one of the most critical, and the specifics appear to be dependent on battery age, as well as many other factors (DoD, Temperature, Number of times it has gone too far, etc). A lot for an automatic charger to keep track of, nevermind do.

2.05V/cell is a good general rule of thumb benchmark to end the recovery phase.

Side note: Flooded cells and SLA's seem to have differing needs here. Still looking into that.

2 - Bulk. This is the phase where the, you guessed it, bulk of the charge is replenished into the cell. Higher current is forced into the cell to cram as much energy as possible in as short of a period of time as possible. This phase for the most part could be considered to happen on average between 60 and 80% SoC.

Below 60%, the chances of cell damage due to weakened cell structures increases, and above 80%, charge efficiency goes down. Continuing to push high current after about 80% can result in damage to the positive plate structure by oxidizing the grid, a difficult (if not impossible) situation to reverse, much like 'hard' sulfation. Voltages above ~2.667V/cell won't gain much in terms of charge absorption, and just liberates heat, explosive gas, causes plate warping, and even internal cell shorting (the combination of which can lead to explosion).

This is the mode that most RE batteries see for the duration of their lifetime. RE is a 'take what you can get when you can get it' kinda thing, and doesn't naturally conform to the chemical and physical needs of a battery very well at all.

For most, by design, this means the system is (hopefully) operating within about 20% or so of total battery capacity, no matter what, with a WYSIWYG approach to charging. If the sun's out, charge. If the wind blows, charge. If your wife wants to shop, charge. Oh wait... sorry...

The end of this phase is triggered by the cell(s) reaching a predetermined voltage. Typically between 2.4 and 2.5V/cell.

More on this later...

3 - Absorption. This is where the current is once again reduced, and an upper voltage limit is introduced. Again, usually between 2.4 and 2.5V/cell. The difference is that during absorption, the cell is allowed to remain at this voltage for a period, rather than triggering the next phase. The so-called 'Smart' chargers have, to varying degrees, managed to successfully merge Bulk and Absorption together. I personally prefer them to be two separate events, but this is not always feasible, particularly with RE.

During this phase, the charge rate is reduced (to somewhere between C/5 and C/10 usually) to allow the remaining parts of the plates to 'catch up' to the parts that were charged during the Bulk phase. With reduced current comes reduced heat production and gassing, factors in service life and maintenance schedules of the cell, respectively.

This period can take as long as the absorption phase, and so is usually just overlooked (as mentioned in Bulk) in the interest of getting as much energy crammed into the cell as possible, as soon as possible.

'Skipping' this phase ultimately means that a cell never really reaches a full charge, and over time (months to years depending on the user and/or charger's 'tolerance' factor), this eventually leads to some irreversible ('hard') sulfation. For the RE crowd (particularly with solar), this is a concession: A necessary evil in tradeoff, give up some service life for 'the now'; usable capacity. 

The end of this phase is ideally triggered by the cell crossing a minimum current threshold, indicating that the cell is nearing full (> 95% SoC), and if the cell's capacity is known to an automatic charger, the charger may also be set up to end this phase after a predetermined amount of time at a given rate.

4 - Finishing, or 'Float'. This phase is characterized by a much reduced charge rate, typically < C/50, at a reduced voltage as well. Typically, depending on exact chemistry (ie FLA vs SLA), the finishing voltage will be between 2.3 and 2.35V/cell. This low charge rate allows the cell to absorb the very top band of it's capacity (above 95% SoC), and is rarely seen in RE use.

The goal of the finishing phase serves 2 purposes; final absorption (as mentioned) and prevention of self discharge, all while minimizing gassing (which of course increases maintenance intervals).

There is no official 'end' to this phase, although the cell can be taken off charge and stored for some period of time (generally less than 6 months) following this phase, but will need to be topped again at regular intervals, usually beginning with the Absorption phase.



Now then, there really are 2 other phases that should be in play here, at least on an 'official' basis, and I believe that this is the key. One of them (equalization) is now in fairly widespread use for stationary lead-acid systems, the other I believe to have been misapplied to an extent, resulting in it's bad rap. They are:


5 - Equalization. This concept is a bit newer than the other four, and was never really brought into the mix as an officially named mainstream practice until much more recently than the age of the chemistry itself. It does not apply to single cell systems (not really found in 'nature').

The purpose of equalization is to bring all of the cells in a battery to equal levels by providing a controlled overcharge for a predetermined period of time at a set rate, based on the battery's capacity. During equalization, all of the cells experience vigorous bubbling, which helps stir the electrolyte to avoid striation (condition where the electrolyte separates into a stronger layer of mostly acid, and a weaker layer of mostly water), which can cause problems with cell balance during the life of the battery.

All cells ideally reach 100% SoC, restoring some lost capacity due to minor cell differences that are unavoidable. Cell imbalances have a tendency to snowball, with a weak cell reaching full and overcharging before stronger cells, as well as becoming more deeply discharged than stronger cells each cycle. Each direction causes more and more damage to the already weak cell, eventually resulting in cell failure. This can mean the failure of an entire battery, when the individual cells are not readily available for replacement.

Equalization attempts to prevent this by giving all of the cells the best chance of keeping their full capacity.

The end of an equalization can be triggered by a few things, usually time, temperature, and when done manually, over several cycles based on CTV (charging terminal voltage). The voltage should be kept below 2.667V/cell at all times. Equalizing chargers are usually set up to deal with this process automatically, and usually only require the user to monitor the temperature of the battery, and discontinue the equalization based on experience and discretion.

NEVER attempt to equalize a sealed battery (SLA/VRLA). You will do more harm than good.



6 - Desulfation. Ahh, yes, the meat and potatoes. Still with me? Good, this is what you came for.

This has to be one of the most controversial topics surrounding battery maintenance and usage in it's entire history. Some say it works wonders, some say it doesn't work at all, some say it makes the battery even worse than when they started.

I agree.

You're probably wondering why I just went through typing all of that just to end up here. Good question, and here's the answer:

I believe that the process of desulfation actually is valid, however there are a lot of caveats to it, and many factors that play into it's success.

1 - The age of the battery. As I mentioned in phase 1 (recovery), lost plate material is just that. Lost. You can't get it out of the 'dust pan' and back onto the plates no matter what you do. This material represents permanent lost capacity. This phenomena is indistinguishable from sulfation in terms of external electrical observation, and is often confused for it. Performing desulfation on a battery in this condition is as futile as trying to move a mountain with a tonka truck.

2 -  Hard sulfation. There are generally two 'accepted' types of sulfation, hard and soft. Soft sulfation is (varyingly) reversible, hard is next to impossible to undo. Sulfation starts out as a natural part of discharging a cell, and is reversed (for the most part) when the cell is recharged. Hard sulfation results when the sulfate crystals begin to grow on the 'seed' provided by the soft sulfation. Hard sulfate crystals are much less conductive, and will not pass a current anywhere near as well as soft sulfate does, and therefore is more or less a permanent condition. Generally, hard sulfation sets in when a cell is 'left for dead', providing all the conditions necessary for the growth of these unwanted crystals.

3 - Frequency dependent. This is somewhat pure speculation, so I'm sure I'll get spanked pretty bad for this one by the 'it works' crowd, but there's deep logic for why I do not believe that high frequency pulsing has any real effect on a cell. In fact it may actually be part of the 'makes the problem worse' observation when combined with 'Timing' (mentioned later).

The common belief is that high current, high frequency (>25KHz) pulsing is the way to go about removing sulfation.  I only partially agree with this. In fact, having tried it 8 different ways to sunday, on several different batteries in varying SoC, age, currents, and frequencies, there is only one combination that seems to work at all. More on this later.

The problem with such high frequency is that the pulses are so short, they are attenuated readily by even the smallest chunk of plate, as well as no time to allow the cell to 'recover' from the pulse. If the energy in the pulse is not 'seen' by the cell, it will have no effect.

I have found that frequencies less than 20Hz work best.

4 - Duty Cycle dependent. Taking heed in the frequency dependency, the duty cycle at lower frequencies also plays a role. Depending on a few factors, the pulse width changes the outcome somewhat, although honestly, it is not entirely clear exactly where the 'butter zone' is. My rough guess is between 2 and 5%, but may be capacity dependent as well. Still looking into this.

5 - Rate dependent. The pulse current makes a big difference in the results of the tests, and is roughly proportional to the rated capacity of the cell. In truth, this is only partly correct; the actual capacity plays more of a role than the rated capacity does. The rated capacity gives an approximation of where one can begin, but should only be used as a rough guide. Around 1C seems to work rather well. Below this level, the results fall off, and while it may be working, I did not have the patience to find out. Above 1C (and even at 1C can be very impractical (not to mention dangerous?) on a larger battery bank. Personally, I haven't performed these tests on anything bigger than a 12V 36AH battery. My 8D didn't do much more than just kinda assert gravity when I ran these tests on it (not enough current, for sure).

Not sure what to tell you there... although I suppose the determined will find a way should anyone wish to try and replicate my results... Think I'll leave that one up to the people with the experience with very large batteries. I wouldn't want to begin to tell you how much current your 8000 pound forklift battery would need to pass in order to successfully perform this... if you get what I'm saying.  ;D

5 - Direction of pulse. It appears to me that the pulse needs to be of the discharge variety, rather than charging. This is kinda a mixed bag, but the tendency appears to be more effect from discharge pulses than charge pulses. May eventually look into doing both, but for now, this is where I'm calling it.

6 - Timing. This is last, but definitely not least. I think this is the key to the whole thing. Desulfation should be considered a preventative routine, not a recovery routine. Retaining plate material in it's usable state is much easier than getting it back from the 'other side'.

One of the keys where I really believe this helped was when I recently accidentally left an amplifier on, and it drained one of my nicer sets of 18AH SLAs (36AH total) down to just 7.5V OTV (YIKES!!!).. I don't know what it was loaded, but just hoped that it wasn't as bad as I feared, then the news of the OTV set reality in quick. I needed to bring this thing back to life, and carefully, so I threw my very own recipe at it, and once I was done, I actually noticed an increase in capacity compared to what it was before! YAY!



THE PROCEDURE USED IN THE TESTS, not just the recovery of the overdrained SLAs:

The most aggressive effect has been observed with the following procedure at room temperature, with adjustments based on age/SoC, etc:

*** CHECK YOUR WATER FIRST if you're doing this on an FLA! ***

    A - Slow discharge (< C/20, lower based on age) down to 10.5V LTV (loaded terminal voltage). A little higher might be better for older batteries, say 11V.
    B - Release for 1 hour.
    C - Begin Phase 1 charging, as described above.
    D - Release for 4 hours.
    E - Begin Phase 2 charging, as described above.
    F - Release for 24 hours. This allows the battery's core temperature to stabilize and become even throughout the entire unit. Very small (5AH or less) may get away with less time here.
    G - Begin Phase 3 charging, as described.
    H - Release for 24 hours. The battery should be at 95% of it's usable capacity at this point. Let it sit and stabilize before proceeding.
    I - Begin Phase 3 again, however this time:

    Use a dump controller to pull 1C pulses of short duration to keep the regulated voltage just below the 'floating' voltage of the charger (set to the lower band of the absorption range, ie 14.4V), so that the overall tendency is toward charge. If it's set properly, you'll get very short pulses at about 20Hz (varies with conditions, but is close enough), and the battery will stick right around 14.2V. Let this run for as long as you feel warranted, but note that it will take quite some time for this process to work. During my tests, to keep things equal, I stuck with 24 hours. Real world usage of this information may end up being several cycles of this, or one very long run. Depends on you, and what you judge to be happening.

    J - Release for 24 hours. This process will cause some heat buildup within the battery, which again needs to be liberated.
    K - Begin phase 4, allow to run for 48 hours.
    L - Disconnect completely for 24 hours.

If after the first 24 hours, the battery's OTV is about 0.2V higher than it was before you ever tried any of this, you have made some headway. In my tests, battery capacity doesn't improve much after the 0.2V increase in OTV is observed. If you haven't seen the full increase, try again, beginning with step "i" once more.

If you do not see any results out of this, you likely have reached the limit of what can be done with that particular battery. The sulfation may be too hard, and/or the problem is actually 'flaked and baked' plate material lying in the bottom of the cells. Neither of which you can do anything about.

Hopefully someone finds this information useful... It's a bit of time in the making.

I'm sure you guys will find a way to beat me down, but hey, that's why we're all here, now aint it?  ;D

Enjoy,

Steve

The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

zap

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2011, 01:16:25 PM »
I know you've been experimenting with different ways to rejuvenate batteries for a while now.  I've skimmed this and will have to read it again.

A friend gave me a dead electric scooter a few weeks ago.  I could tell the scooter had been sitting unused for quite a while and I was surprised to find the 2 batteries sitting at 12v even though the negative lead from the charge port had become disconnected at some point in the past.
Cycling the pair has brought the resting voltage up to 12.5v but I think the 2 sla will be a good candidates to try some alum ;)

Harold in CR

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 01:48:22 PM »
I have some Alum to be sent down here, in the next 2-3 weeks, and will start experimenting, as well. I have a Garden Tractor size and a 27 Series size, both 12V.

 The larger battery, actually had smoke coming off 1 cell.  :o :o

 IT will be set outside, at the end of a 100' extension cord. Then, let the games begin.  ::) ::) ;D

 I might just convert whichever one comes back, over to an Alkaline Battery.  No more Acid.  ;) ;D ;D ;D

Madscientist267

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 05:33:35 PM »
LOL you guys are missing the point... but I guess that's the spirit around here sometimes... LMAO

Steve
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How much magic smoke it contains does !

hydrosun

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 06:20:41 PM »
I've used the small desulfators for years but really have no way of telling if they actually work. From what you  are posting they are too small and  probably a waste of time.
One product that intrigued me was a unit that equalized the voltage of each battery in series. but the price was almost as much as the cost of my whole battery bank. But in theory it would keep each battery fully charged without having a high voltage for the string. You would still need a way to stir up the electrolyte. I've seen where someone was experimenting with bubbling air from the bottom of the battery to stir while charging. That might change the need for your first stage of battery charging as it would more fully spread the charging over the entire surface of the lead plates.
 Of course this is all very interesting to get the longest life out of lead acid batteries but like you said the cost and timing may not fit in with a large battery bank for a solar charging system. The three stage charging of solar controllers are a big improvement over the earlier relay on and off controllers.

Over at the windsun.com forum someone posted that they had an interesting result from a battery bank with desulfators and three mppt MX-60. They noticed on many days that the output of the MX-60s weren't proportional to the sizes of the solar arrays into the controllers. It changed from day to day. They removed the desulfator and now the outputs of the MX-60s are consistently proportional to the relative size of the solar arrays.
So it would seem that the pulses of the desulfators were confusing the MX-60 sensing of battery voltage and changing it's output.  Has anyone had similar problems?

What is your opinion about using chelating chemicals on a hard sulfated battery. Years ago I used some on an old battery bank but didn't have much metering to tell what difference it made.
Chris

Harold in CR

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 07:13:23 PM »

 Actually, I am very familiar with what Madscientist267  is doing.

 I watched a bunch of videos, and, one of them had several Homemade batteries set up. It was 2 strips of lead, hooked to a power supply that had adjustable V & A settings.  The guy demonstrated exactly what happens with Sulphation. These crystals look like wrinkled skin, not quartz looking crystals.

  He compared the process of sulphation as close to the same thing as electro plating. He had one battery set that he was reversing the sulphation, by reverse charging the cell. He explained this so well, I just HAVE to try it. Being very familiar with Preservation Electrolysis, it all makes sense.


Madscientist267

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 07:46:22 PM »
I haven't done much in terms of reverse charging, and nothing at all as far as adding chemicals to the mix to try and bring one back.

I suppose both are worth investigating, if nothing else than to see what possibilities come up.

I have a tendency to leer away from adding anything but water to the cells, the idea being that even if it does have a somewhat immediate effect, what will the long term effects be. Then again, on a battery that is shot anyway, what's to lose? An arm, an eye... Might be worth it...  ;D

Reversal makes sense to a point I suppose, and lines up with what I'm seeing with the seemingly counter-intuitive discharge pulses having a more profound effect than charging pulses do. I guess this would really show up in the case of a weakened cell that is bringing an entire battery down, rather than just on a single cell.

Unfortunately, I don't have singles laying around to try this with. Anybody want to donate either some defunct individual cells, or their time to try it out?  :)

Steve
 
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How much magic smoke it contains does !

Harold in CR

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2011, 09:02:34 PM »

 
Quote
Anybody want to donate either some defunct individual cells, or their time to try it out

Soon as I get the Alum, I will take notes and post good or bad results.

 I also have a motor controller, that will run up to 100 Amps @ up to 36 volts. It runs off a battery to match the motor voltage, but, it will pulse the crap out of the batteries I will be playing with. This will be a separate set up. My Buddy might have a Dozer size Battery I might get.

 Just waiting for that Alum. We don't preserve food down here. No need to. That's why I have been looking at the States, for my Son to send some down.

 The EDTA I have read about, but, I would use that in my BODY, If I had some here. Works great for that.  ;D ;D

zap

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2011, 10:33:49 AM »
Just waiting for that Alum. We don't preserve food down here. No need to.

Wow... a magic country where food never spoils?  I guess the only reason for refrigeration in Costa Rica is for cold beer? ;D

I'm not sure the scooter batteries I have are even worth fiddling with.  I noticed they seemed a little light compared to most 12ah soI weighed them.
Most 12v 12ah sla are around 10 lbs... these are marked as "HOMER" from HUAMAO SCIENCE & TECHNOLOGY CO., LTD. and weigh in at only 6 lbs.

I suppose some of the electrolyte could have evaporated or they use a more spongy lead?  It would be nice to get one healthy or at least get one to hold somewhere around 13.2v and test the ah rating.

Harold in CR

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2011, 01:20:15 PM »

 Never said food doesn't spoil down here. We don't have to preserve it, because there is never NOT a growing season. Gardens are year round, just a little different variety. Plenty of fish. Don't eat a lot of meat, just occasionally. Most stuff is bought as dry goods. Refrigerator is not a grand size double side by side door.

 Plenty of good water, so, no need to buy and store bottled water. Don't use BEER or any other form of alcohol, except as a fuel, maybe. Had an ATF Permit for my still, when I lived in Arkansas. With all the fruit just laying on the ground, everywhere, it would be a simple thing to get off Diesel or Gasoline.

 Just trying to get ready for the world wide depression that I believe is starting to take shape.

 Meanwhile, gathering parts for my 3 wheeled electric Motorcycle, reverse Trike. Electric Bicycle project will be started in a couple weeks, as soon as I get the motor-controller-batteries, shipped down from Florida.

Madscientist267

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2011, 02:28:56 PM »
Zap -

I'd bet they're dry. Scooter falls under the same category as UPS, just not quite as bad...

Abuse.

Watering an SLA is an interesting proposition... and I've managed to make it work at least once, although the one that I revived by watering behaves more like an FLA now than an SLA... Guess it makes sense... sorta haha

Get an oral irrigation syringe (any dentist will have one; pharmacists look at you like you have 3 heads when you ask them for one)...

Fill it up with distilled water and do like 5 drops per cell going around in a cycle until you can just barely tell that the mat is no longer absorbing the water.

Then try the desulf thing...

Steve
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zap

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2011, 07:07:01 PM »
Zap -

I'd bet they're dry. Scooter falls under the same category as UPS, just not quite as bad...

Abuse.

I came to exact conclusion today.  I did just a tiny charge and it was cold enough inside I could feel 'too' much heat on the top of the battery for how much juice I applied.
I'll pop the top and try adding some water.

I agree it's a hit and miss affair.  I had a pair of old 30'ish' ah gel batteries from an old disability scooter and they acted more like flooded after I kept adding water.
I have some plastic pipetts that work good for adding to the tiny holes in the sla.

Meanwhile, gathering parts for my 3 wheeled electric Motorcycle, reverse Trike. Electric Bicycle project will be started in a couple weeks, as soon as I get the motor-controller-batteries, shipped down from Florida.
Sounds fun Harold... I'm sure you'll post it on the sphere?

Bruce S

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2011, 04:47:01 PM »
Zap -

I'd bet they're dry. Scooter falls under the same category as UPS, just not quite as bad...

Abuse.

I came to exact conclusion today.  I did just a tiny charge and it was cold enough inside I could feel 'too' much heat on the top of the battery for how much juice I applied.
I'll pop the top and try adding some water.

I agree it's a hit and miss affair.  I had a pair of old 30'ish' ah gel batteries from an old disability scooter and they acted more like flooded after I kept adding water.
I have some plastic pipetts that work good for adding to the tiny holes in the sla.

Meanwhile, gathering parts for my 3 wheeled electric Motorcycle, reverse Trike. Electric Bicycle project will be started in a couple weeks, as soon as I get the motor-controller-batteries, shipped down from Florida.
Sounds fun Harold... I'm sure you'll post it on the sphere?
Zap;
 yeah me too, once I saw the part about the Tad-pole design in got real interested. BUT don't want to hijack this thread...
So i'll add that I have just found too APC 650 model units with SLAs that are dry, one even rattles  >:(.
I think I will do some testing with these a using the syringe method, hey I work around med-stuff ALL day I think I can find one around here.
one 12 11Ah batt read 0.185 the other reads 3.116. they can only get better.
I can't desulfate them without building a circuit, AND if I try to get one more project going I'll need to bring the dog outside to keep me company :P
I do however have a state-of-the-art battery tester  8)

Cheers
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

zap

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #13 on: January 07, 2011, 05:07:41 PM »
So i'll add that I have just found too APC 650 model units with SLAs that are dry, one even rattles  >:(.
I think I will do some testing with these a using the syringe method, hey I work around med-stuff ALL day I think I can find one around here.
one 12 11Ah batt read 0.185 the other reads 3.116. they can only get better.
I can't desulfate them without building a circuit, AND if I try to get one more project going I'll need to bring the dog outside to keep me company :P
I do however have a state-of-the-art battery tester  8)

Cheers
Bruce S

Although steve and I were working on this at the same time, he carried it much further than I did.
Admitting that... I've given up filling them to the top of the grid with water because the few I've tried never acted quite 'right' after.
What I'm doing on this pair and what I've tried on others is adding around 1ml of water to each cell, then doing a slow, low wattage charge and observe resting voltage, looking for a higher resting voltage.
The few I tried before never got what I would consider a healthy battery but they did improve.

A set of 12ah from last spring only came to life after repeated reverse charges.  That pair is still powering a scooter I sold to the neighbors last winter who gave it to their kid Christmas before this last one.  Here's the post about that pair:
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,136265.0.html

Madscientist267

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 04:16:16 PM »
In my case, it turned out that one of GHurd's dump controller works at just the right frequency and such that it's a cheap and useful circuit with yet another 'side-effect'...

Here's a pic of the layout:



Inside the box is ghurd's controller just as described, with a single MOSFET for the switching.

The 'dump' is a 55W 12V fog lamp that I was going to install on my car until I heard something rattling around inside... (which reminds me... Dunno what kinda success you'll get with a rattling battery heh)

Pay no mind to the zip-tied wires with blue and orange wire nuts on them; they are for a fan and additional lamp if desired... Not required for the desulfation process.

The input goes in through the larger white connector at the top, which has a pot on it for 'setting' the voltage coming from my boost converter (not important either).

This input (15V) is passing through a 4.7R 25W Dale resistor, and then on to the wye that makes connection with the battery and dump controller.

The frequency at which it 'attacks' the battery of course varies with surplus charge current, but hangs out at somewhere between 15 and 20Hz, which seems to be almost perfect (unless someone comes up with a different one that works better). Always looking for input on the subject.  ;D

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

freejuice

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2011, 09:17:26 PM »
Hi Steve,
 I love those Ghurd controllers!  I have mine soldered up for 24 v conversion
 I use one on each 24 volt leg of the 48 volt system.
You can really tweak them in!

ghurd

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2011, 12:23:28 PM »
 ;D

This is only for Steve...
Can bump up the Hz by
- reducing the value of C1.
- adding a low value resistor (<~5 ohms) in series with D1 to create a bit of 'semi-controlled oscillation'.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

zap

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2011, 07:20:22 PM »
;D

This is only for Steve...
Can bump up the Hz by
- reducing the value of C1.
- adding a low value resistor (<~5 ohms) in series with D1 to create a bit of 'semi-controlled oscillation'.
G-

I assume steve is using his sick battery as the 'dump'?

Madscientist267

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2011, 10:24:12 AM »
At the moment, yes.

I have 2 more that should probably be watered, and then I intend to try those again. They didn't respond super well to the first try, but I suspect lack of water is to blame. They are also 18AH each, so they will take longer than the others, if it works at all.

I don't really have very much data in terms of what happens when the discharge rate is less than 1C... So I will probably end up putting the other 55 watter in the mix to push the current up. Should get me up around 9-10A or so, which is still only C/2ish. :(

As far as frequency control goes, I may try it, possibly with a variable pot (that 25R rheostat from Radio Shack), and see where that takes things.  It is also a function of charge current; the higher the current (and therefore terminal voltage tendency), the faster it ticks.  A variable ballast made out of nichrome and an alligator clip may also prove to be useful.

There are still many variables to tweak and look out for in this, but I believe for once there really might be something [worthwhile] to this.

Just remember all; I'm not very convinced of the viability for bringing them back from the dead, from what I can tell preventative measures seem to be key here. Getting the sulfation out before it hardens.

Don't dispair if you don't get any real results from the 'bricks'... try it on one that is functioning, but at a reduced capacity, for best results.

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

Harold in CR

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2011, 04:34:40 PM »

 Little info on my first attempt at resurrecting a Lead Acid Battery.

 I have a garden tractor size, 12V, that I used to start the sawmill engine. It went stone cold dead, so, I bought another.

 3 days ago, I brought the dead battery into the shop, checked the water, and made sure it was dead. Hooked up my Sears 2-10A charger, to opposite terminals. let it run all day, all night. Checked it in the morning, no amps showing on the ammeter. Took off 1 clip, and shorted the terminals with a length of copper solid wire. NO spark. DEAD. I KNOW the clips were contacting clean lead terminals.

 Hooked the clip back on, and let the charger run all day and all night, for the 2nd day. Same results. No spark, no juice.

 Let it run all day and all night, again. On the 3rd day, I found 4 amps reading on the ammeter.  :o

 Battery was pretty warm on the POS terminal, with the NEG lead connected. unplugged the charger, let the battery rest for a couple hours, and hooked up a 18V battery drill motor, and let it run, for 3 hours, until the battery went dead. Motor ran approx. 1/4 speed, maybe.

 Hooked up the charger, same way, reverse charge, and set the output to 2A, trickle. Let it run for 3 hours. Battery was getting pretty warm on that same POS term, with NEG clip.

 Unplugged the charger, switched to 10A output, and plugged it in. Ammeter read 5 A. Then, it jumped to peg the needle at 15A. I waited 2 seconds, and pulled the plug. Banged the Battery a couple times, on the concrete floor, and plugged in the charger. It went to 2 A, and did a little needle wiggling, but, then, settled in at 3A.

 Figuring a bit of debris shorted a couple plates, I put the battery outside the shop, on the ground, on a board, and left the charger in the shop, on the concrete floor. Soon, it started raining, BIG TIME. I went to the house. A few hours later, I went to the shop. The battery was wisping a little smoke from that same cell. Ammeter read 3A.

 Since then, I have banged the cell a bit on the floor, but, it still gets pretty warm, on that 1 cell.

 I have it resting now, with 8.26V showing, no external load. I figure in 4-5 hours it will be dead. Still waiting for Alum, so, not sure where to go from here. Might just dump the acid out into a plastic oil drain pan, and try to flush out the cells with hose pressure. Then, filter the acid, and refill the cells. Then, see if it still gets very warm on that 1 cell, until I get the Alum.

 Suggestions, other than scrapping that battery ???  If it turns out not being resurrected, I might dump it out, rinse it out, and cut the top off, and see if I can get the plates out, and take a look. ???????

zap

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2011, 05:19:55 PM »
I'm not sure how hard you're banging the battery on the ground... but if the grid inside is well corroded it doesn't take much to completely collapse things.
From what you describe is sounds like the one cell is stuffed.


The two scooter batteries are coming along nicely.
I added 1 to 2ml of water to the cells once, twice, or three times a day for 4 or 5 days.  I probably need to add some more but some of the cells appeared to be mostly saturated.
I would add water then let them sit on the toaster oven after I'd cooked something just to try and move the moisture up the cells.  I'm not sure if that's necessary or not but it's cold here and I keep the heat down around 55F.

So far they keep getting better.  I haven't timed any of the discharges but rely on 'feel' and they will operate a small 8 watt halogen for 3 or 4 hours now and still be above 12v connected in parallel.  When I first tested them they'd be under 11v after about 20 minutes running the same bulb.

Not bad considering these have been abused and are over 7 years old... I assume :P  Stamped on top... "20030919"

Harold in CR

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2011, 07:12:01 PM »

   :D :D :D  I'm not trying to break the insides loose.  I should have been more explicit in stating that.  :D :D :D :D  I'm just trying to shake down any debris that might have broken loose.  I'm going out now, to check the voltage.

Madscientist267

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2011, 07:29:23 PM »
Guess I never mentioned it, but I've stayed away from 'banging' on them at all...

Its been tempting a couple of times, but I've stayed away from it.

If you have a shorted cell, I don't know of any easy way (particularly SLA) to unshort it. If it's minor enough, I've had minimal success (like 1 in 20?) with hitting an FLA with a HV capacitive discharge.

Built a little gadget when I worked for this military surplus electronics place, it had a couple three 2200uF 400V electrolytic caps in it (yep they were monsters), and a couple of much smaller ones (I think 270uF 400V) on half a bridge in a doubler config.

Through a ballast resistor of a few hundred ohms, one would charge the caps, wait for the meter to hit the desired voltage, duck, and press the boom-boom button.

The caps discharged into the battery via a way underrated relay, and eventually the relay locked slam up.  :-\

I must warn you, there were a couple times where some really scary sounds came out of the battery's general direction. One of which sounded like a small pocket of H2 and O2 had been set off. The relay contacts welded shortly after this, but we played with quite a few batteries before she died.

Originally, it was an experiment in desulfation, but proved more useful for busting shorts in the batteries, although only barely. Desulfation (if it happened at all) was more or less a bust.

Don't try this without some serious protection in place between you and the battery (and anything else you might care about). I'd recommend that IF you're going to try this, you try it outside.

Never bothered with trying it with SLAs; for one, we were a little on the skiddish side to do so. Not sure what it takes to slam blow one sky high, but didn't want to find out either.

May be of use, just be VERY CAREFUL!!!

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

Harold in CR

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2011, 09:29:40 PM »

 Yup. I've played with my share of batteries, over the years.

 This one was still holding 6.46 volts, 4 hours after I shut the charger off. That's 2+ v lower than when I stopped charging. Plugged the charger in, while I was sanding and sealing a wooden plate I turned today. After 20 minutes, at 3A, the one cell was getting plenty warm, and, still wisps of smoke coming out.

 It's probably toast, but, I'm still gonna mess with it some more. I'm a little afraid to put it IN something, like a plastic bucket. Even though Hydrogen is lighter than air, I don't want to touch off anything stupid.  :o :o

 I'm being plenty careful with this battery.

 The banging is wayy over rated. It's not much more than thumping with the butt of your open hand, like hitting a wrench or something similar.

 OH, the cell is getting pretty warm, way up at the upper level of the cell. Maybe the top 10% of that cell. Acts like a short. It might clear if I dump and flush. ???

Harold in CR

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2011, 01:36:53 PM »

 Little update on this small battery. This morning, voltage was still 4.6, after sitting all night.  ::) ::)

 I plugged in the charger, and 2A going into the battery. It's on 10A charge rate. Watched the ammeter for a couple minutes and it was steady. Started looking for certain cuts of lumber to make some wooden scrapers and noticed the ammeter at 10A.  :o :o  Watched it for a couple minutes, and it dropped back to 2A. Felt the side of the bad cell, and, the case was pretty warm, as usual.

 HOWEVER, I noticed the warmest area was now moving across the cell toward the other side. Last night it was almost under the terminal. Now, it's a little better than 1/2 way across that side. Appears that the short is not real bad, and, might be breaking up or being eaten away by charging. ??? ???

 Oh yeah, reason I'm playing with this battery is, The battery in the USA is about $20.00 or so. Down here, I paid $84.00 for the replacement.  :o :o :o  Yup, some things are really high priced down here. The ones I have were imported from Ohio Battery Co. Don't remember the name. This type and size are not made down here. 

zap

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2011, 09:40:41 PM »

 I plugged in the charger, and 2A going into the battery. It's on 10A charge rate. Watched the ammeter for a couple minutes and it was steady. Started looking for certain cuts of lumber to make some wooden scrapers and noticed the ammeter at 10A.  :o :o  Watched it for a couple minutes, and it dropped back to 2A. Felt the side of the bad cell, and, the case was pretty warm, as usual.


Still under reverse charge?

wooferhound

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2011, 10:11:06 PM »
I have thought about using a standard Lighting Dimmer to pulse batteries. A lighting dimmer when set to very low levels of less than 5% or 10% will output spikes of voltage. You would obviously need to be very careful if you were to try this method.

Was thinking about taking a wall dimmer and replacing the potentiometer that controls the brightness with something that would limit the output below 10% or less. The battery would need to be outdoors if I tried to do this. The output of the dimmer would need to pass through a single diode to get 60 pulses a second, or through a bridge rectifier to get 120 pulses a second on American power frequency.

I have a 45 amphour battery that has gone weak on me and was planning to try this method on it to try and revive it.

Madscientist267

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2011, 11:18:11 PM »
Don't forget that a dimmer contains an SCR, not suitable for cutting OFF DC. They would trigger but wouldnt let go.

If you're doing what I think you're doing, you'll be pushing line AC into DC, which I guess in theory could be done, but there's some things to consider first...

Max current of the SCR/Triac... primarily... I'm thinking ballasts?

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

wooferhound

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2011, 03:09:48 AM »
I did mention using diodes and bridge rectifiers to control the frequency. So it would be a DC output.
when running dimmers down to 5% the voltage/current spikes become very short and the current & pulses can be controlled with a finely adjusted potentiometer. You can run the output of a dimmer into a dead short as long as you can control it low enough.

http://www.ubasics.com/adam/electronics/doc/phasecon.shtml
http://www.ilight.co.uk/downloads/iLIGHT%20Binder-HowDimmers.pdf
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 03:13:06 AM by wooferhound »

Harold in CR

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2011, 08:40:08 AM »

  :( :( :(  Yes, still reverse charge. Late yesterday, around 7PM, I went to the shop. Charger was on 8A. :o  Battery looked "different".

 I carefully touched the very warm side of the case, and it was HOT. Not enough for a burn, but, damn hard to hold a finger against it. It was also a brownish color.  I do a lot of wood working, and dust is everywhere. I usually blow out the shop with the compressed air. With all this rain, everything has a coating of light tan dust. That might be the cause of the color. It just heated that dust.  ::) ::)

 I pulled the charger plug, and went to the house. I will go to the shop today, and check voltage and completely discharge. Then, maybe, drain the battery, flush with the hose, and refill with the filtered acid, and see how that goes. Nothing to lost, with all this rain holding up outside projects.  :-\ :-\

Madscientist267

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2011, 09:57:35 AM »
Woof -

My mistake... I mixed up the order of things or something as I was reading it... LOL

Harold -

Be careful man...  :-\  Sounds like you're heading into the meltdown phase.

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

zap

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2011, 10:16:52 AM »
UPDATE
The two scooter batteries have had a 24hr rest and are both sitting at 12.85v.
I'm nearly out of water so next time I remember to pick some up ::) ...I'll probably have a look at the cells and maybe add a ml or two.
I'm still pleased, especially given their age.

Madscientist267

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Re: Desulf, revisited (how many times now?)
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2011, 12:36:03 PM »
12.85 sounds good... Indicates they're not 100% healthy, but at rest, anything above 12.6 indicates that at least all 6 cells are playing the game.  ;)

They sound like excellent candidates for the desulfation process.

Just remember to add the water slowly... It takes a little bit to soak into the mat.

My target here recently has been to not go very far over the tops of the plates, if at all.

I also wonder somewhat about striation from adding water. I'm thinking there may be something more to the 'gel' part of 'gel-cell'...? This may explain why they behave more like FLA after adding water.  ???

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !