Author Topic: Frustration has set in...new install (Read 5675 times)

Seekscore · « **on:** February 05, 2011, 11:25:19 AM »

I installed my 12 axial flux turbine. I am running about 200ft from the turbine to the controller thru 6 GA wire. It's a 24 Volt system. I have the turbine going into 2 80Amp rectifiers wired in parallel. The batteries I am using are 4 6Volt 187Ah wired in series to get to my 24VDC. The dump load is 3000 watts of wire wound resistors with a calculated resistance of .34 ohms. I had a Xantrex C60 installed but it wasn't dumping the load. The light on the panel changed to RED saying it was dumping and heard a relay click sound, but when I put a meter on it, it wasn't dumping. I ordered a TriStar TS-60 to replace it. I installed the TS-60 and within 5 minutes of applying power, it smoked. I got a request in for replacement. Wind was a decent 12-16mph so I wasn't getting crazy power when it blew.

I also have an APRS World data logger installed. I wanted to let the turbine run for a while to collect some data. So I installed an inverter, disconnected the charge controller and was running a 500 Watt halogen bulb. Of course, it wasn't running unattended. Now I can't get the current to read right on the data logger. I was getting negative numbers for the current. I changed the offset in the data logger to get it to zero with no load. Then let the turbine spin back up and still got negative current. I changed my shunt output to change the direction of current and still get negative numbers. I have one of their RPM sensors. At least it was working. I saw readings of RPM around 190-210. I'll give APRS a call and see what they suggest.

I think I am going to leave it for a few days and not even look at it or deal with it. I guess I need a time out! I'll regroup and go at it again in a few days.

Mike

B529 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 05, 2011, 11:50:53 AM »

Mike,

go over how you have the TS-60 wired. Kind of surprises me on the two failures, both those controllers have been bullet proof for me.

I agree, sometimes it is better to walk away for awhile, usually it gives time to go, "oh, I get it now".

Kevin

ghurd · « **Reply #2 on:** February 05, 2011, 12:19:19 PM »

Mike,
Slap self on forehead.

Ohm's Law?

24V system, dumping, is ~28.8V?

28.8V / 0.34 ohms = 84.7A

TS-60. C60. 60

G-

Seekscore · « **Reply #3 on:** February 05, 2011, 01:06:22 PM »

G,

I know about the 60 Amp. I'm no expert but from what I've read, you want a dump load that is bigger than your turbine. The TS-60 says it has can handle 60 Amp continuous. It also says "Fully protected against reverse polarity, short circuit, overcurrent, high temperature and overvoltage." I made the dump load with 2500 watts in mind.

My turbine should peak around 1600 watts with spikes higher I'm sure. At 30VDC in my batteries, the dump should see less than 60 Amp at max power. However, when it blew up, I doubt it was putting out more than 450 watts.

I guess, I could understand it blowing up if there was too much output power, but the wind was only blowing 15mph max at the time. It couldn't have been more than 20 Amps.

If I am wrong, please school me.

The Xantrex C60 was used previously on a 10 ft machine that burnt up due to operator error. It doesn't surprise me it didn't work. My stator had a melt down on that machine because it didn't furl like it should have. (Build error on my part).

Mike

cdog · « **Reply #4 on:** February 05, 2011, 01:12:20 PM »

I dont think it makes much difference what the mill is doing, if diversion is activated, the controller is turned on, delivering all it can to the dump load, in your case the draw as mentioned is over 80 amps, too much for your controller.

cdog · « **Reply #5 on:** February 05, 2011, 01:16:01 PM »

What I mean is if the mill was putting out ten watts, enough to raise battery voltage to your set point, the controller doesnt just get rid of that extra ten watts, it will try to supply fully how ever many watts is called for by your heater.

cdog · « **Reply #6 on:** February 05, 2011, 01:28:51 PM »

Im sorry, the last post was wrong, I was thinking of another type of dump load........
When I first hooked up my c~35 I had six~ 300 watt elements, it would only work with two in parallel, I think it may somehow sense when there is too much load, or the resistance is wrong, if I hooked up a third resistor in parallel I got the red light as you did, but was lucky, it didnt let the smoke out.

ghurd · « **Reply #7 on:** February 05, 2011, 01:41:38 PM »

Both of them are PWM.
That means it is Dumping, or it is Not Dumping.
If it was dumping, it was dumping 85A.
If it was Not dumping, then 0A.

It may average out to 20A, but that does not mean it was not dumping 85A when it was dumping.

TS-xx manual, section 6.2
"The maximum diversion load current capability for the two TriStar versions is 45 amps
(TS-45) and 60 amps (TS-60). The diversion loads must be sized so that the peak load
current cannot exceed these maximum ratings."
6.4
"CAUTION: The diversion load must be able to absorb the full power output of the
source, but the load must never exceed the current rating of the TriStar controller."

The dump load is sized for 2500W, which is 85A.

Here is a O-scope pic of my ghurd controller. A few adjustments to the scales and your 2 controllers would look like this too.
It is dumping, or it is not. There is no half way between full Ohm's Law amps and 0A.
G-

Flux · « **Reply #8 on:** February 05, 2011, 01:59:54 PM »

I absolutely agree with ghurd. the peak rating of a 60A controller is 60A, no doubt it has a bit of overload capability.

The implication is that when full conducting at nominal 24v the maximum current should be 60A. This means about 0.48 ohms is the lowest the makers intend. Allowing for nominal variations and possibly lower resistance of your resistors when cold you are overloading the mosfets in the controller.

If you base your calculations on mean dumped power then you would eventually come to the conclusion that a short circuit would do the job as long as the men stayed below 60A. This is far from the case.

If you want to dump more power than 29 x 60 = 1740 W then you need a bigger controller or a relay to add additional dump in high winds that is independent of the controller. This is possible but you will need some means of switching in the extra resistors.

Increase your resistors to 0.5 ohms and see how you get on, I doubt that you will get enough out of the turbine to exceed the dump volts regularly, a few seconds of gassing won't hurt unless it is a sealed battery. When you have established what the turbine can really do then is the time to sort out the dump load.

Far better to get the turbine running and see its capabilities before worrying about dump loads.

Flux

B529 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 05, 2011, 02:18:56 PM »

Quote from: ghurd on February 05, 2011, 12:19:19 PM

Mike,
Slap self on forehead.

Ohm's Law?

24V system, dumping, is ~28.8V?

28.8V / 0.34 ohms = 84.7A

TS-60. C60. 60

G-

Oops, glossed over the .34 ohm part. Ya, what ghurd said.

Although it is interesting both controllers died on you, especially with the TS60's protection. Your battery voltage would had to been quite a bit higher than your diversion set point when you turned on the controllers to go into 100% diversion, and with your turbine putting little current. Also with a 187AH battery bank, I would think the voltage would drop rather quickly.

Maybe get two TS60's and resistors to divert about 40 amps on each.

Kevin

Madscientist267 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2011, 02:21:13 PM »

Seems like a wild shot in the dark, but with talk of reverse current registering, a zapped bridge comes to mind in addition to whatever may have taken place in the controller...

May have been in the 'obvious' pile, but I didn't see it mentioned anywhere in here, and seems logical to me.

Just in case... good luck! $:-\$

Steve

Flux · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2011, 02:35:39 PM »

"Although it is interesting both controllers died on you, especially with the TS60's protection. Your battery voltage would had to been quite a bit higher than your diversion set point when you turned on the controllers to go into 100% diversion, and with your turbine putting little current. Also with a 187AH battery bank, I would think the voltage would drop rather quickly."

The snag is that even with the volts at 24 the peak current into 0.34 ohms is 70A. No doubt the tristar has good protection for thermal overload but I doubt it has instantaneous protection on the mosfets for something considerably in excess of the peak rating. it should never be able to see any peak above 60A if the load is selected correctly, I really can't see any manufacturer incleading a peak current limiter circuit just to protect for a theoretically non existent problem. If it was peaking 70A at full dump volts then perhaps it may be within its overload capability, but with electronic things limits are very much absolute.

Your suggestion of two controllers is the simplest solution if the turbine really does give that much current, but I don't think that is established yet.

Flux

Seekscore · « **Reply #12 on:** February 05, 2011, 02:50:48 PM »

Thanks for taking the time to offer suggestions. It has definitely given some things to think about. I was mistaken on how to figure my dump load. I've done lots of reading and I guess I trusted something I read from someone somewhere that wasn't quite correct. I'll have to review my setup and make some changes. I'll probably end up going with two charge controllers and fix my dump load. I'm pretty sure at this point, that this is going to be somewhat of an expensive lesson.

Mike

Flux · « **Reply #13 on:** February 05, 2011, 04:16:59 PM »

"I know about the 60 Amp. I'm no expert but from what I've read, you want a dump load that is bigger than your turbine. The TS-60 says it has can handle 60 Amp continuous. It also says "Fully protected against reverse polarity, short circuit, overcurrent, high temperature and overvoltage." I made the dump load with 2500 watts in mind."

I have only just noticed this. If that genuinely is the claim that then I can see why you may have chosen your load as you did.

To me these seem rather ambitious claims, if most things are to survive the abuse of users then manufacturers have to try to make things as fool proof as possible. Reverse polarity is not too difficult, thermal ( long term) overload is also not that bad. Over voltage is more tricky and short circuit is again difficult.

The tristar has a good reputation so I assume they have got things as fool proof as possible but I would never base any ratings on exceeding any paramater, fine to save the day during a fault but not a good way to plan normal operation.

As you say some things you read are not always as straightforward as they seem. There are some things about pwm that are not too obvious unless you really understand the nature of how it works.

Data logging is another area where things can be far from simple and if you just accept answers without question it may not be the correct ones.

Flux

wolfie · « **Reply #14 on:** February 05, 2011, 05:04:22 PM »

Quote from: Seekscore on February 05, 2011, 01:06:22 PM

G,

I know about the 60 Amp. I'm no expert but from what I've read, you want a dump load that is bigger than your turbine. The TS-60 says it has can handle 60 Amp continuous. It also says "Fully protected against reverse polarity, short circuit, overcurrent, high temperature and overvoltage." I made the dump load with 2500 watts in mind.

My turbine should peak around 1600 watts with spikes higher I'm sure. At 30VDC in my batteries, the dump should see less than 60 Amp at max power. However, when it blew up, I doubt it was putting out more than 450 watts.

I guess, I could understand it blowing up if there was too much output power, but the wind was only blowing 15mph max at the time. It couldn't have been more than 20 Amps.

If I am wrong, please school me.

The Xantrex C60 was used previously on a 10 ft machine that burnt up due to operator error. It doesn't surprise me it didn't work. My stator had a melt down on that machine because it didn't furl like it should have. (Build error on my part).

Mike

i know more about the mechanical side of things than the electrical, but i think i can clarify a little bit of this... on most systems that i have seen, and on my small hobby set...the controller dumps the batteries...not the mill. so the mills output at any given time is meaningless to how many amps are going thru the dump controller.

It is purely an ohms law function of your load and battery bank voltage, and in your case...it was well over 60 amps

the reason you have to be able to handle your mills output, is so that once batteries reach 'full' you can dump faster/equal too whatever your mill can pour into them

fabricator · « **Reply #15 on:** February 05, 2011, 09:35:30 PM »

If you get your TS60 replaced I got a new in box unit TS60 I'll give ya a good deal on never used, you can stack em.
another way to run a dump load is to use a cheap kit type controler and use it to turn on an inverter to dump 120 volts at what ever watts your heaters or heating elements are, that way you are dumping actual ac and driving ac devices with small gauge wire instead of wasting energy in cable losses trying to dump DC.

zvizdic · « **Reply #16 on:** February 05, 2011, 09:41:38 PM »

That is why you should build a bigger machine for 48V .

2500 / 57,6 = 43,4A

willib · « **Reply #17 on:** February 06, 2011, 01:27:23 AM »

If i can expand on what Flux said at one point ,it may shed some light on the subject.
If you add a tad more resistance to your dump load , this will keep your Dump Amps below 60A.
Or you could do what someone else suggested , start dumping into an inverter and use the power for something.

By adding a tad to the dump resistance ,as was suggested , this will lower your dump current , by ohms law, 28 V /0.5 Ohm = 56 A
A little close to the 60A limit.
or 28V / 0.6 Ohms = 46 A
A tenth of an ohm makes a ten Amp difference

tecker · « **Reply #18 on:** February 06, 2011, 08:06:48 AM »

Disconnect everything and let the genset go in the wind measure every thing as you add in components . You need to look at the output of each phase with a scope if you have one .

dave ames · « **Reply #19 on:** February 06, 2011, 12:00:08 PM »

hey mike & the group,

mike, thanks for sharing your (mis) adventures for all to see and learn from. hope you are getting at least some warm fuzzy knowing you may have helped someone else avoid this fate.

as we have not seen it mentioned we wanted to add that it's important to run our controllers in "charge control mode" when running them as dump load controllers. we see from the red display light on the c-60 that it was running in "load control mode" when it failed. when in load control/LVD mode the controller will run full on and full off without the PWM pulses that gives the tight control we are after (if there is 10 watts too much the controller pulses an equivalent PWM of 10 watts to the dump)..can't tell the failure mode of the ts-60 from here..is it possible that was set in "load control" mode to?

agree it's good to step back and plan a new attack! i get into trouble working on things when pissed off and tend to muck things up even more then

"...I'm pulling for you. We're all in this together" <-Red Green

kind regards, dave

dnix71 · « **Reply #20 on:** February 06, 2011, 02:47:35 PM »

Another wild shot in the dark. Are you sure you didn't wire it so that it is dumping the batteries and the mill into diversion? That would be a lot of current for a short time and might be enough to fry any controller.

Seekscore · « **Reply #21 on:** February 07, 2011, 09:57:19 AM »

Thanks for the info and feedback.

I know it is not a wiring problem.

I see what I did and why my thinking was wrong on my dump load. I'm glad hindsight is 20/20. The error of my thinking was basing the resistance of my dump load on the max power the dump load could handle. While I now see that having a dump load that will handle more than my mills output isn't a bad thing, the problem was that I based the dump load resistance on the max power on what the dump load could handle and not max output from the mill.

While this is definitely a problem with my setup, I doubt it was the cause of the failure. My batteries were definitely not at full charge, so the controller shouldn't have been trying to dump the load. Whether I have to purchase another charge controller or get warranty repair, doesn't really matter, I just need to get my system up. I am going to fix my dump load and get another charge controller (or 2 in parallel) and go at it again.

Mike

wolfie · « **Reply #22 on:** February 08, 2011, 09:40:11 PM »

Quote from: Seekscore on February 07, 2011, 09:57:19 AM

I just need to get my system up.

Mike

now thats the spirit

Seekscore · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2011, 08:54:25 AM »

I'm finally up and running. I tested my Xantrex C60 and it was working correctly. It just wasn't dumping to the load because it was protecting itself from my incorrectly configured dump load. I fixed the dump load to a calculated 56 ohm. After a polite conversation with Morningstar telling me I screwed up, they are sending a replacement TS-60 controller for the one I let the smoke out of. Thats awful nice of them to warranty it! I also purchased another TS-60, so I'll have two of them. I'll have to figure out how to hook two TS-60's together and then replace the Xantrex.

Apparently when the TS-60 let go, it took out my APRS World current shunt. APRS was very helpful telling me how to test the shunt. I'll order another one so I can start logging power.

Thanks to all who pointed out the problems with my dump load.

Mike

B529 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2011, 10:28:44 AM »

Mike,

glad to hear you are up and running.

I've smoked a few things over the years as well, most manufacturers will bend the rules if you are honest about what happened.

Wire the two TS60 in parallel, with a resistor(s) to each TS 60. This is how I have my dump load configured. I set the diversion points the same on each TS60. My reasoning is I'm not maxing out one resistor running it hot. It's interesting to note the two accumulative AH's dumped from each TS60 are within 5% of each other.

Kevin

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Author Topic: Frustration has set in...new install (Read 5675 times)