Author Topic: More, heavier, slower, oy  (Read 4213 times)

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dnix71

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More, heavier, slower, oy
« on: February 17, 2011, 05:21:51 PM »
I have the week off from work having accumulated too much PTO, so I had time to rebuild my eBike. The price of gas isn't likely to go down and the economy is getting worse all the time in spite of the loud lies coming from the press and the District of Corruption. We will be back on 35 hours a week soon. Right now we are rearranging the shop for a new shipping system, but that won't make up for declining sales.

Radio Shack is selling 12v SLAs again over the counter for cheap. I picked up 2 12v 12ah bricks for $40 each. 12v 7.2ah bricks were $35.  I just don't want to spend $600 on LiFePO batteries from HobbyKing.

My eBike range on batteries alone was pathetic, maybe a couple of miles. There is a button on the throttle that disables the motor under throttle unless you pedal some. That seems to be the only way to get any range.

The 12ah sla's fit nicely in the front basket, but if I mounted the basket level with the handle bars it made the bike hard to steer and top heavy.



Moving the basket down about 1 foot and tucking it in a bit makes it handle like a bicycle again instead of an underpowered motorcycle.





The final look. A push cart with a pair of flooded deep cycle batteries would be fun, but it needs to look and handle like a bicycle so I can stay off the streets if need be. The front basket has 2 by 12v 12ah, the box behind the seat is 2 by 12v 10ah and the removable gray box that came with the bike has 2 by 12v 7.2ah.

I need to reconfigure the nicad pack I have to run the bike lights.

Simen

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Re: More, heavier, slower, oy
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2011, 06:45:04 AM »
$600 for a LiFePo pack?! A bit on the stiff side, isn't it? (Though, you didn't mention voltage/Ah...)

Have you considered GoldenMotor's batterypacks? http://goldenmotor.com

They start at $279 for 24V/16Ah (+ airfreight)

I got a 36V/16Ah driving a 36V, 750W hub motor (also GM), and get around 40km trip from one charge. (max speed on flat terrain: 42km/h...)

Edit:
A picture of my bike can be seen here: :)
http://mwlmf.net/albums/ElBike/100_2961.sized.jpg
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 06:56:51 AM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

zap

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Re: More, heavier, slower, oy
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2011, 12:10:21 PM »
$600 for a LiFePo pack?! A bit on the stiff side, isn't it? (Though, you didn't mention voltage/Ah...)

I agree!
A 24v 20ah pack from Ping is showing as $424 shipped and I would bet dimes to dollars you'd get more ah out of the Ping than all of your current sla set up, not to mention the whole pack would weigh a pound or three more than just one of you 12ah sla.
If you want to take a bit of a gamble... kelinginc on eBay has a 24v 20ah for $260 shipped.


Some of the Ping packs are over three years old and many are over 5000 miles and still going strong.  Seems like a pretty solid hedge against rising gas prices and inflation.

Nice rig you got there Simen... I like the trailer.

Simen

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Re: More, heavier, slower, oy
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2011, 12:42:22 PM »
I used 3x 12V, 18Ah SLA's before i got the LiFe battery, and i got maybe 12-15km out of them before the controller's lvd kicked in; and there was still around 50% left in the batteries, but the voltage drop was just too high under load... At full load, my motor draws around 20A @ 36V, and those small SLA's are just not designed for that kind of continuous amps...

And the weight... 3x 12V, 18Ah sla = 21kg; 1x 36V, 16Ah LiFe = 5.5kg. :)

But i know how it is; a LiFePo battery are an investment, so sla's are good enough to get ones feet wet... ;D

Thanks Zap. ;) That trailer are perfect when i go shopping etc... Though, driving faster than 25km/h with it are not safe; a small bump at high speed, and it flips around... :o It's more stable when loaded though... :)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 12:45:07 PM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

dnix71

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Re: More, heavier, slower, oy
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2011, 11:20:02 PM »
GoldenMotor has a reputation for selling used batteries as new.  http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9939  That's why they are cheap.

The 12v 10ah sla's came with the bike. The 12v 7ah sla's I paid $20 for from an APC UPS with a bad main board at a local computer shop. The 12v 12ah I paid $80 for new. $100 extra isn't much money.

Simen you are right on about sla's not being able to push the amps. This bike only works correctly if I use the boost feature instead of full time power. There is a Hall Effect sensor on the crank. If I use pedal assist there is no power applied to the motor unless I pedal some even though it doesn't have to be as fast as the bike is moving. Full time power ON causes a serious current drain at any throttle even if that throttle level isn't enough to match the bike's speed.

I suspect the controller/motor design is flawed and that was the "fix." The most efficient power use seems to be boost and coast, boost and coast. There should have been a speed sensor on the motor itself and boost applied only when the throttle level passed the motor speed, but that's not how it was done. The motor to rear axle gear ratio is fixed by the two sprockets. The most efficient motor power can't be a full range of rpm.



The fixed motor sproket



The boost sensor



right-hand spring loaded throttle

Simen

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Re: More, heavier, slower, oy
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2011, 03:31:03 AM »
That thread over at Endless Sphere was started early '09, and there was only one person there which had been sent some (obvious) used batteries; probably neglect from one employee... The rest of the thread are more of an apology from Yao Yuan regarding the wrong track the company had taken during his absence. (and a promise to be better ;) )

There has been some cases of bad cells in some of the GM packs last year in what i can see from the GM forum, but i think GM resolved most, if not all those cases...

I'm not trying to defend GM, but i myself - and my brother have 3 36V16Ah packs from GM, and all of them have performed perfectly the last 2-3 years. :) That said; one of the FET's blew in my 'magic' controller (letting the magic smoke out), but being an electronic nut, i replaced the fet easily. After looking at the problem from all angles, i concluded the fet was from a weak batch...

(edit)
GM are still struggling when it comes to customer relations, but there are now some trustworthy distributors one can rely on. :)
(/edit)

What kind of controller are you using? I have only experience with GM's Magic Controller. Sounds like your pedlec works correctly; the motor should work only when pedalling, and not above 25km/h (EU regulation). That said, on GM's controller, one can turn on/off the pedlec mode, and when on, the throttle are disabled (no boost function), and when off, the throttle are just that; a throttle (and pedlec are disabled). ;)

My throttle works exactly the same way as on a motorbike; 1/3 throttle = 1/3 motorspeed etc. and for coasting, i just press the Cruise control, and the controller locks the (motor)speed at the current speed.... ;) (sadly, not the bike speed)

Due to the hall sensors for each phase in the motor, the gm motor/controller knows when the motor has a certain speed that matches the throttle position.

I'm guessing your speed/power drain problem are due to the SLA's inability to deliver enough continous power over time.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 03:47:04 AM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

dnix71

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Re: More, heavier, slower, oy
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2011, 07:43:52 PM »
The LVD on my controller seems to be set at about 12.0v which is rough on an sla. The ON/OFF button is for fulltime power/pedal boost only. The black ring just to the right of the switch is the throttle. Crossing traffic is dicey under battery power. The only safe way is to pedal across and forget the throttle. Halfway doesn't do it. "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."

The Currie 24v controller I have is reported to be capable of using up to 30v, which is not quite possible with an sla but might work with a NiMH or LiPO at 28v. Above about 30v it is reported to shut off to protect itself. http://www.evdeals.com/Motors.htm#24V-Currie%20450W%20Brush%20Motor%20and%20Controller%20Kit The controller pulls 30 amps full load, which is simply not real life from an sla the size they include with the bike. According to a thread here: http://www.motoredbikes.com/archive/index.php?t-6617.html the Currie motor I have is really only 250 watts continuous. The 450 watt rating is peak power.

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-24-60-Volt-Controller-Model-YK43B-/330424800950?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ceeda56b6 is a replacement controller to allow higher voltage, but that just makes the battery capacity problem worse.

I have about 16kw (10 miles) to go to work. It could be more or less a straight path up paved roads, but it's more difficult to run over someone on the sidewalk and as long as you respect pedestrians riding on the sidewalk is okay down here. There are official bike paths along some roads but enough bicyclers get hit in the road that people realize it doesn't make sense to be too legalistic about it. Very very few people bicycle to work if they can ride a car. Motorcycles are for thrill seekers. I get enough excitement out of life already.

I looked into getting a methanol fuel cell to boost the batteries as a range extender but I guess it uses a lot of platinum because the price is $5,000.
http://www.powerstream.com/methanol-fuel-cell.htm   25 watts continuous would be nice. That would make the bike a hybrid. There is a 2-stroke bicycle weedwhacker conversion in the neighborhood, but that's not legal. If it has a gasoline engine it's supposed to be DOT compliant and all that.

zap

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Re: More, heavier, slower, oy
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2011, 11:28:19 PM »
Everything I've read says the controller will do fine on 30v... you'll need to watch the motor... especially in your climate.  36v and the motor tends to smoke pretty quickly in almost any climate.
I think that's the same motor powering Woody, it will get warm but I've yet to see over 160°F or thereabouts?

NiCd and SLA play well together although I didn't test it for too many miles.
You could build a 6v pack and series 'em up but then the charging becomes a bit of a pain.
I would bet a 12v pack would even spice up your ride nicely.  The nicd tend to take care of the surge.

There's a member here with some (name withheld for security reasons ;) ) and those are nice cells but they're only 1.3ah.  If you're interested I can give you info on cheap/free cells that are local to you.  Send me a pm if interested (once again... for security reasons ;) )
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 12:00:51 AM by zap »

Simen

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Re: More, heavier, slower, oy
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2011, 03:16:06 AM »
Actually, 12.0V LVD are not that bad, as long as one start charging within 1/2 hour of discharging... :)

I can imagine that in your type of commuting, it's nice to have the force with you - in small bursts... ;D
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

zap

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Re: More, heavier, slower, oy
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2011, 10:37:49 AM »
If it's 12v on a 24v pack then look out!
The two folders I have are around 20v but the mtn bike will let you drain the battery completely :o
I think both scooters I had were around 22v.

dnix71

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Re: More, heavier, slower, oy
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2011, 02:34:08 PM »
Yeah, Zap, I think it's 24v. I measured the batteries after running the pack down enough that the controller kept shutting off. 2 x 12.0v is 24. 12.0v is lower than is good, but I guess the range would be too low if they cut it off at 24.6

If the same battery was in an APC UPS it would be shut off at 10v, but that's because it's only expected to do that a few times during the life of the UPS.

C-sized nicads don't work well at all. A 3 ah pack is the same volume as 2 12v 10ah slas and not much lighter. Nicads will push amps but the low cell voltage is a huge minus.
Pb is 2.05v/cell
LiPO is 3.3v/cell
Organic Li (great balls of fire if overcharged) is 3.7v/cell

C-size Nicads are 1.2v 1ah and steel clad as well. At least with Pb the case is lightweight plastic. More cells in series makes discharge and recharge dicey. I don't remember who did it, but in the 1980's there was a nicad charger that would put just under 1 volt over whatever the pack was. It took a long time to recharge, but there was no H2 formation and thus no memory effect.

If I had a double pulse CD spot welder I would experiment with 2ah AA NiMH cells. I can get those for $1.25 each  http://www.harborfreight.com/pack-of-4-nimh-rechargeable-aa-batteries-90148.html Assuming I used 23 in series I could keep the same charger and would need 115 cells for 5 series strips to give 10 ah at 27.6v

4 cells per pack is 29 packs. $5/pack times 29 is $145. That still more than double the price of two 12v/10ah slas.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=12v+10ah+sla&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=3361447976290281610&ei=kGxhTZHoOIrpgQef3IGPAg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CFEQ8wIwAg#

LiPO is stupidly expensive. There is an eBay dealer who claims to be selling genuine A123's (3.3v 1ah) for about $2 each. But they appear to be recycled stock from people no longer authorized to sell A123's. He says he tests each one before shipping. HobbyKing wants over $8 each for the same cell.