Author Topic: Battery Disconnects  (Read 7127 times)

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dloefffler

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Battery Disconnects
« on: March 10, 2011, 11:08:39 PM »
What are members using for disconnects between the battery and inverter?

Fuses?

Breakers?


rossw

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2011, 11:41:01 PM »
What are members using for disconnects between the battery and inverter?

Fuses?

Breakers?

Pretty lousy photo, sorry... but...

I went with suitably rated HRC fuses (200A) bolted directly to the battery terminals, then some 500A battery isolators (purely as isolators, no more), to a common bus. The bus then goes to the inverter which includes LVD (low voltage dropout breaker) and magnetic+thermal (ie, quick+delay) breakers. So I guess thats:
 [tick]   fuses
 [tick]   disconnects
 [tick]   breakers


RP

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2011, 11:58:51 PM »
Ross,

I'm not familiar with that kind of fuse.  Is the casing designed to contain any arcing inside itself if it blows?  Without them being inside a cabinet, do you have any concerns about some kind of flame jetting out of the cartridge?

rossw

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2011, 12:20:53 AM »
I'm not familiar with that kind of fuse.  Is the casing designed to contain any arcing inside itself if it blows?  Without them being inside a cabinet, do you have any concerns about some kind of flame jetting out of the cartridge?

They're a "High Rupture Capacity" fuse. They're a lot bigger than they look in that photo - probably 1.5" diameter by 3" long (working from memory, I'd have to wander out and measure to be more accurate).

They're sealed, no jets of flame or plasma should vent from them. They're designed to *interrupt* 200A at 550V DC, safely. I believe internally they're full of a granular material designed to quickly and safely quench any arc and prevent the molten fuse material providing a residual current path.

(They're listed at something like $70 each, although I got a box of 5 for that price with some haggling)

fabricator

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 08:49:14 PM »
I get these from West Marine, these are 200 amps, I think they carry up to 300 amps.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

dloefffler

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2011, 10:59:29 PM »
Okay, I understand the fuses, the disconnects and breakers please?

You are ahead of me, I am presently putting in solar, plan on adding wind, excellent site; but DC isolation is a bit difficult wth off the shel parts and suitable AIR values.

Thanks,

Dennis

rossw

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2011, 12:25:30 AM »
Okay, I understand the fuses, the disconnects and breakers please?

In this context, the fuses should be sized to protect the cables, thats all.
I have 48V, capable of pushing something like 60,000 amps into a short circuit. I definately don't want that!
I have 35 sq mm cable to the inverter (2AWG?) - but only a short run, 1 metre (3 feet).
Since my inverter is a maximum output of 10,000 watts, I could pull 200A peaks, so the fuses have to be at least that big.
200 amps should protect my cables in the event of a catastrophic failure somewhere.

Breakers are (*almost always*) a bad thing with wind turbines. You don't want them opening during a high wind event and leaving your mill unloaded to fly apart, so the breakers in my system are only between the battery bank and the inverter itself, and are sized slightly over the maximum current the inverter should normally take in operation.

Finally, the isolators. These are are rarely used. They are not normally used to turn anything on or off (as in, to interrupt a working circuit) - they are not rated for that purpose. They're just to isolate a battery from the rest of the system (while they're not actually being charged or discharged) so you can safely work on a battery string, or if you wanted to charge a cell by itself, or let them sit to check their charge etc.

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You are ahead of me, I am presently putting in solar, plan on adding wind, excellent site; but DC isolation is a bit difficult wth off the shel parts and suitable AIR values.

In the *solar* part of my setup, I have 6 arrays which I bring in seperately, so I can isolate and meter each to see how they're going.
Here's the breaker panel before the cover went on. The breakers are double-pole (break both + and -) and are (from memory) rated for 500V DC, 10A, and *ARE* rated for interrupting that current at that voltage *DC*. The breakers were more than cheap AC breakers, but not stupid money. I think I paid about $25 each for them, but they're nice insurance.



DamonHD

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #7 on: March 12, 2011, 05:24:58 AM »
Thanks for that clear explanation Ross.  Cleared up a couple of things in my mind.

Rgds

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fabricator

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2011, 08:53:43 AM »
The one thing to remember with a turbine is NEVER EVER put fuses or breakers in the lines to the rectifier or from the rectifier to the batteries, one blown fuse there and you got a runaway and a smoked stator.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

thirteen

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2011, 08:58:07 AM »
As a safety side note I would secure the wires coming out of the top of the box to the wall. Just to prevent movement over the years that might cause problems later. Just an idea to play with or toss.
MntMnROY 13

ghurd

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2011, 10:34:43 AM »
Depending on the size of the inverter, and the system voltage, car stereo shops have some pretty nice fuse blocks.
G-
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DamonHD

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2011, 12:51:10 PM »
G: your "MAXI" fuse hint sorted me out with my 12V system.  (Not that I've ... ahem ... quite got a round tuit for them all yet; at least the 2kWh of SLA now has a fuse in line, and there's another between the controller and the rest of the downstream system.)

Rgds

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rossw

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2011, 06:09:26 PM »
As a safety side note I would secure the wires coming out of the top of the box to the wall. Just to prevent movement over the years that might cause problems later. Just an idea to play with or toss.

Done. As so often happens, photos were taken before the job was complete.

dloefffler

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2011, 10:43:45 AM »
RossW, would you be so kind as to include pictures of the drop out breakers? I am not sure I know what they are. I have located a 400A DC rated disconnect at HGRINC and suitably rated fuses for the cable that are DC rated with an adequate AIR. QO breakers are apparently DC rated up to 70A so isolating the panels should not be difficult.

Additionally, source for isolators and type of battery?

I am thinking of using Sam's golf cart batteries to get my feet wet prior to buying something more "durable." Thouhts?

Dennis

rossw

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2011, 04:46:12 PM »
RossW, would you be so kind as to include pictures of the drop out breakers? I am not sure I know what they are.

Here's a photo looking inside the inverter. There are 6 breakers there visible lower-centre. The white one on the left is the low-voltage disconnect. If the volts get below (I think) about 40V, that snaps up into the "off" position. It has a pin that joins its lever to the 3-gang breaker immediately to its right, which are just 3 breakers wired in parallel in the 48V supply. They're all ganged so if any one goes, they all go. The last two are the generator 240V in, and the load 240V out respectively.



Quote
Additionally, source for isolators and type of battery?

I got some of the more ruggard battery isolators I could find on ebay. The local shops had identical ones - at 9 or 10 times the price! (I ended up paying I think about $9 each for the ones I had photographed - a far cry from the $87 they wanted locally for them!)

The batteries were second-hand, but far, far less than buying new. New these guys sell for around $700 each.  I got the whole lot for about what half a dozen would cost new.

Quote
I am thinking of using Sam's golf cart batteries to get my feet wet prior to buying something more "durable." Thouhts?

"learning" what they're all about with some cheap batteries makes a whole lot of sense. Especially when you (or someone else) does something dumb and ruins them. Far better for it to be a relatively inexpensive mistake if you can!
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 04:54:49 PM by rossw »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2011, 05:53:07 PM »
The one thing to remember with a turbine is NEVER EVER put fuses or breakers in the lines to the rectifier or from the rectifier to the batteries, one blown fuse there and you got a runaway and a smoked stator.

I presume this does not include the battery fuses that are sized to prevent a fire if the battery lines are shorted (and NEVER blow UNLESS the lines are shorted).

At that point the choice is between unloading the mill (when the inverter sees overvoltage and shuts down) and maybe having it come apart, or burning the house down AND unloading the mill and maybe having it come apart - perhaps while firemen are on site dodging the hunks of mill.

If it's a choice between maybe destroying the mill or destroying the house AND maybe destroying the mill, I'll save the house and let the mill tear itself up.  B-b
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 05:54:46 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

dloefffler

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2011, 11:32:41 PM »
First, thanks for all the pictures and advice, it is most helpful.

The breakers are wired in parallel so that with three you have 3x the rating of a single breaker? Square D has wiring diagrams of this and all of these diagrams result in only the current handling capacity of the single breaker, not 3x. It makes sense as a disconnect in seriew with fuses.

There is a warehouse that sells used industrial equipment, hgrinc.com which has some of these items most reasonably. I have dealt with them over the years and they are honest.

Where did you find the used batteries? I have been tempted to buy a used fork lift to obtain a larger battery at a reasonable price.

Did you fabricate your own inverter?

Dennis

rossw

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2011, 01:44:25 AM »
First, thanks for all the pictures and advice, it is most helpful.

The breakers are wired in parallel so that with three you have 3x the rating of a single breaker? Square D has wiring diagrams of this and all of these diagrams result in only the current handling capacity of the single breaker, not 3x. It makes sense as a disconnect in seriew with fuses.

I can't see why they would derate them. If they're wired (as mine are), hard-jumpered at one end, and with some sort of resistive tail at the other end to force them to load-share.

Indeed, I just checked them, and they're Merlin Gerin breakers. Googling them finds a statement thus:
"The exceptional performance levels .... mean the poles can be parallel connected. This technique virtually doubles, triples or quadruples the current rating depending on the type of circuit breaker and thus reduces the cost of solutions."

It also says "Specific connections are required for parallel connection of three poles", and they show special shorting straps (which are actually used on mine)

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There is a warehouse that sells used industrial equipment, hgrinc.com which has some of these items most reasonably. I have dealt with them over the years and they are honest.

I'm on the other side of the world to you, and not likely to be much use in that regard :(


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Where did you find the used batteries? I have been tempted to buy a used fork lift to obtain a larger battery at a reasonable price.

Local battery recycler. They trade in them all the time. (By "local" I mean 3.5 hours drive each way)

Quote
Did you fabricate your own inverter?

No, it's a commercial unit. Because of the work I do, the equipment I have and have brought to me, my expectations and demands, I felt purchasing one someone else has already worked out all the bugs on was a better investment of my time/effort/money.

dloefffler

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Re: Battery Disconnects
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2011, 12:53:24 PM »
Again, thanks, most helpful.

Parallel breakers make sense, I will review the Square D site.

The battery recycler idea is great, hadn't thought of that.

Your advice has saved me a great deal of effort and most likely expensive lessons learned through mistakes, thanks again.

Dennis