Author Topic: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?  (Read 43483 times)

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wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Some Delay & Some Progress!!
« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2011, 04:49:42 PM »
Some delay - been away on hols - now some progress on Mark2

.......but first no one got any insight into advantages or disadvantages of three stage savonius????.....hmmmm......oh well.....my own thoughts are that the disadvantages would be more than the advantages - particulary regards imbalances....I think that unless perfectly balanced the three stages would move similar to the crankshaft in a car engine....which requires very specialised equipment.

I guess I'll have to run with my torque calculations as well!!

Anyway....made some progress in assembling the taller two stage:



Also near completion is the new wooden "tower":



- tried to make it sturdy enough for the potential vibes and intending to be able to mount different motors and different height Savonius turbines - but restricted to about the current diameter. 

Should provide some further "test bench" results  and provide some measure of benefit of height compared to the original "workbench mini-tower" arrangement...more to come!!

Bruce S

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #67 on: May 19, 2011, 05:53:39 PM »
wadlands;
Pretty much correct. Most of the stuff here is seat-of-your-pants testing. ;D
I can say that as you get bigger/taller the need for balancing will become more relevant.
With the motor/gen disconnected you could possibly turn the stand (with the blades mounted) on its side. that way you can see if it is balanced. Just like we used to do to tires, before mounting anything. This will give you some idea of its static balance.
The good thing about vertical- based 'mils,they tend to spin multiples slower than Horizontal based ones where real out of balanced units would tare itself apart in no-time, or worse.

Best of Luck
Bruce S
 
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wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - New Tower Tests
« Reply #68 on: June 02, 2011, 05:51:03 AM »
Thanks Bruce

Installed the Mark1 Savonius in the tower:


Here it is in the unfurled position!!


Made some motor mounting plywood plates so I can test out a couple of other motors (Indiana 24DC motor and a PM Servo Motor) to compare against the original stepper.  Will post results for comparison

Gee

Bruce S

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #69 on: June 02, 2011, 11:17:37 AM »
Nice "unfurling"  ;D
Question? While in the unfurled position, how well does it spin? I could not expand the current pic enough to see, got real blotchy, sorry.
If it spins freely, and when it stops does it stop, then roll to the same position each time? if so you could do a static balance with weighted tape.
This would be similar to balancing a vehicle's tires.

Thanks for the pics, will be interesting to see the results from different motors.
Cheers;
Bruce S
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wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Some Results
« Reply #70 on: June 02, 2011, 02:54:00 PM »
Ok – some comparative results from my Mark1 savonius turbine in the “tower”:

With the Indiana 24dc motor connected the turbine starts turning at about 7mph, but doesn't really get above 12v until +12mph winds 



With the PM Servo motor connected and 3-phase rectified output the turbine starts turning at about 8mph and again doesn't really get above 12v until +12mph winds. (pic also shows my hi-tech measuring devices in situ!!)



With the voltage doubler, coils in parallel, Nema34 stepper the turbine won't start turning until about 12mph but then kicks in with a healthy +40v.



Although I had expected that the PM servo motor would be the best and perhaps the Indiana24v come second.  I am pleasantly surprised that at this stage it looks as if the stepper is fighting off all newcomers and best able to deliver the volts and amps …..once its turning.

These numbers give me some useful benchmarks to compare the larger Mk2 savonius……need to disassemble and reassemble…….

Bruce – I had not yet tried static balancing on this Mark1 turbine - thought I would focus that next piece of learning on the Mark2 which is longer and uses plywood discs instead of the aluminium pizza pan lids used on the Mark1.  I expect the Mark2 to need some balancing as the 3 ply discs are not 100% the same size – the best I could do on my band saw was “quite good”.  But I thought there will be some positional errors in the 4 rotors themselves and then the top axle support of the Mark2 that I should attempt to balance the whole thing rather than the individual components or sub-assemblies.

Gee

Norm

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #71 on: June 02, 2011, 03:23:48 PM »
Finally woke up and realized you asked me a couple of questions ...about a month
ago
.....with 3 stage versus 2, with the same total area it would just be easier starting
just using coffe styrofoam cups the 3 stage starts much easier ...even discounting
half again as much area.
Actually your 'torque meter' would be much more accurate if you had 2 spring scales
then you would have a Prony brake (and that is Prony brake not Pony brake)
Google Prony brake and how to make one.
You are coming along much nicer than I ever did....I've made 'em but never hooked
them up to a generator.
Like someone else has said Wind turbines are much neater to watch than solar cells !
BTW Digital Bike speedometers work the best for rpm counters with that and a Prony
brake you can figure how many watts the mill could have made at 100% efficiency.

Have fun !

Bruce S

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #72 on: June 02, 2011, 06:03:08 PM »
Glad to see its coming right along.
These numbers are open voltage right? Still can't pull the pics up far enough for me to see the gauges.
When you have the chance, do like you did before so we can see them with current output to a known battery, any battery of 12V will do.
The choice of course is up to you, but one choice to think about would be the "Average" wind speeds you get.
I would much prefer to get 15 hours of 9mph wind than a few charging hours of 15mph.

I understand the thought with building the Mark2 unit, to static balance the entire unit will certainly help for both size stability and higher loading on bearings and such due to beefier products.
Not so sure about using the plywood though, good testing stuff for size and build knowledge. I think you would get a better speed to weight ratio with tin or aluminum flashing, but in DIY you use what ya got ;D.

If my memory is still working from previous posts 8); once the Mark2 is up and running the Nema unit may kick in with a lower starting speed due to larger surface area.
However, before that it would be good to get output data for voltage and Amps while connected.

How quickly can you change from one gen-set to another?
Cheers
Bruce S 
 
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wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #73 on: June 03, 2011, 05:19:56 AM »
Norm – hi – good to hear from you again.  From what you say about the significantly easier starting with a 3 stager.  You have motivated me to make my Mk 3 a conversion of the current Mk1 by adding another stage of the same size to it.  I will be able to get a useful comparison to the Mk2 which is taller than the Mk1, but still a 2 stager turbine….thanks for the encouragement as well!!….definitely having fun!!!

When I searched on torque in the forum I did come across the Prony Brake and saw how it could be used to measure the output of the turbine / (any motor).  At the moment all I was trying to do was get a simplistic measure on how much torque was needed, just to get past the initial cogging of the stepper motor….and then do some maths to “predict” what wind speed was required for the size of turbine I had….got lost in the maths.  But I am sure there must be a way of doing it??

Bruce – I had been using a pic size of 160x120 so I wouldn't get berated for hogging bandwidth.  Here are some pics at 640x480 – the servo motor again, also showing my simple universal joint / tube coupling to the turbine.  (Also the fact that it is a very calm windless day!!)



Yes the numbers are just open voltage.  I didn't connect up a battery this time as I just simply wanted to see what wind speeds gave what voltages – given that I would need above 14v to get anything going into a battery. Also I now know that although the Mk1 has given me good build experience it is too small to get anything significant out below 12 – 15mph winds.  I agree with you about 15 hours of 9mph is the more worthwhile goal – and that is the focus of my experimenting.  Trying to home in on what is the smallest size / number of  stages savonius turbine that will give me a decent charging current given the motors I have to experiment with.

It is relatively easy to change from one gen set to the another, I've tried to take a modular approach to the tower build.  The horizontal cross member that you can see in the ServoMotor pic is repeated on the opposite side and both then carry the ply mounting plate.  Each motor / gen has its own mounting plate as
a “sub-assembly” :

   

These then are mounted on the cross members using the same bolt mounting positions.  All that I then have to do is make the correct size of hose pipe coupling (my solution to a simple flexible universal joint!!) and adjust the relative Z-axis travel on the top bearing so I can connect the UJ to the turbine & then tighten up again.  Takes about 30mins of faffing about.



Gee

wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Mk2 Short Update
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2011, 03:10:23 PM »
Got some light winds last couple of days and really pleased with the Mk2 turbine:

With Servo motor  - starting to turn at 6mph and delivering 6v open circuit and >11v at 11mph.  Really satisfying improvement compared to Mk1 and was waiting for some 15mph winds to finish the tests on the servo motor.

But the tower starts to shake a bit and then have to use custom designed shock absorbers on the wooden tower....arms straight out and locked at the elbow - feet splayed apart....works very well and adjusts in real time to the changes in vibration levels!!!

...found the problems - with the longer turbine length - the top plate was not quite level and the rotors weren't quite 100% vertical ... so that even with hand rotation you could feel the out of balance "hump" that the turbine had to get over to start rotating.  In fact the rotor definately looked a bit like a "K" shape.

Now sorted and temporarily repacked the rotor blades and discs so that things are a bit closer to the horizontal and vertical...better than before and now good enough so the rotor looks vertical & parallel and not like a "K"

...GRRRREAT payoff - turbine now starts rotating with servo motor connected in 2.5 to 3mph winds.....jumps with joy....no wind now....can't wait till tomorrow....looks really promising for testing the stepper motor again with the Mk2 turbine....the goal definately feels as if it can be reached..eventually....more later

Norm

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #75 on: June 10, 2011, 08:29:56 PM »
Hi been busy pedaling but enjoying watching your progress on the MK2.
Where did you get those little white connectors did you buy them or just
salvage from some other equipment? Lot neater than holes drilled in a 2x4
and bolts tapped in from the side ....your hose for flexible coupling is great
also.....it's the way I couple comparitively heavy vawt 5/16 shaft with skate
board wheel bearings  to an 1/8 shaft of a stepper motor (lot of masking tape
turned onto the small shaft) for lack of a metal lathe.
all fun stuff right?
Norm.
* simple setup for a 4 wire stepper, diode legs fit into the first 3 holes and the
other ends of the diodes with a lead wire tied together with a wire nut the 4th
hole another lead wire 'plugged in' is the + (or -) connection.
Ghurd told me how  :)

wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2011, 08:08:08 AM »
Norm hi - the connectors are "standard" screw terminals available in the UK from any electrical / electronics / hardware store.  Sometimes they are called "Choc Block" terminals.  They are available in different sizes, ie amp ratings for the actual metal screw terminal / insulation capability - 5A, 10A, 15Amp....etc.  I usually solder the end of wires that go into the terminal so that repated removal / reassembly doesn't create broken wire strands.  They certainly make things a lot easier to use & I prefer them to using crocadile clips on the ends of wires - just my preference though!

Masking tape - yes I had to do that also on the stepper motor that I am testing to enable it to couple into the hose pipe joint.

Servo motor tests continue: 4-6mph gives 8-9volts, 7-8 gives 11-12volts and get to 14v at 9mph - quite satisfying.  Still waiting for 15mph winds to get my "top" wind speed benchmark with Mk2 turbine.

Given that I need >9mph winds to get +14v from servo motor then not surprising (only 7 to 8 mph tops yesterday) that it wasn't giving any amps into my test car battery.  Bench tests for servo motor were 12v & 2A short circuit @200rpm and 25v & 4A short circuit  @500rpm (2.6A into car battery).


What I really need is a way of "voltage doubling" / multiplying the 3-phase output of the AC servo motor. 
(Star wind and can't get to the common point which will be inside the motor casing ....read enough on the forum to be warned against taking the servo motor apart!!!!....no intention of doing so!!!)

Anyone who can help with stepping up the 3-phase voltage from the servo motor - don't mind being told what to look at or read....hope someone can shed some light

thanks
Gee

DamonHD

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2011, 09:04:54 AM »
For a *tiny* system you could consider something like the Cockroft-Walton (CW) multi-phase voltage multiplier on this page of mine:

http://www.earth.org.uk/wind-power-pilot-autumn-2007.html

Rgds

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Norm

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2011, 09:23:04 AM »
Gee,
 All the time you are waiting for winds capable of charging a 12 volt battery....you could be
getting winds high enough to charge a 6 volt battery....then again ,when you got to that
point the turbine might not have enough torque to do the job....so many variables with wind,
just a frustrating compromise....isn't it?

  Okay here is what you need to do....find out how much torque and speed you need to
turn that servo motor fast and strong enough to start charging a 12 volt battery.....

Basically it involves wrapping a small nylon string/rope around a 1 inch drum connected to
or on the motor shaft and then hanging a weight (plastic gallon jug) on the end of the
rope adding enough water so it travels fast enough to give you the amount of current
that you are targeting.

Hope this last part helps.....I'll have to post one of my earlier projects that I did this
way a couple of years ago.
 Norm.

 

wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2011, 11:59:08 AM »
Damon – hi – thanks for the link….makes for very interesting reading.  I like how you were able to get an “easy” handle on available wind power – but what sort of circuit follows from the opto-isolator, so that the USB port can take the sample every two minutes.  It's something I wouldn't mind having a go at building as I too am experimenting to see what I can do with the available wind power at my location – hope you can share the additional circuit diagram?

Also how does one work out the capacitor values needed?  Your web-page mentions “given a winding resistance of ~60 ohms that implies capacitor values of at least ~220uF” Is the 60ohms just the ohms reading of each of the coils?  But then how do you jump to ….220uF?  I would like to understand for my AC servo motor.  I had a look at some of the links from your web-page but still could not fathom out!!

Further along your web-page regarding circuit 2 and “Preparing For MotorWind”  …. “the capacitor values should be adjusted to match the winding impedance at the mid AC frequency”…. How does one go about measuring this?


Hi Norm – I agree that I could be charging a 6v battery rather than waiting for higher winds. 

At this stage I am just trying to scope out what sort of winds I actually get and understand some basic design things related to a Savonius type turbine…along with the raft of learning on different motor types that can be used as a genny, power rectification and voltage doubling at low wind speeds.  I'm enjoying trying to get my head around the variables bit and at the same time really keep with very “simple” engineering…feel as if I'm making some forward progress & actually having a fun time as well!!!

Look forward to seeing your earlier project as well.

PS – forgot to ask before “busy pedalling”….have you built a bicycle generator??


Gee

DamonHD

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2011, 01:52:15 PM »
Hi,

There's no magic upstream of the opto-isolator; my K8055 USB I/O board has pull-up resistors on its digital inputs, so the opto output just has to pull an input to board ground as if it were a push-button switch.

As to the capacitor values I just picked a value whose impedance would be roughly that of the winding resistance (though there are other ways of getting an approximate value) using Z = 1/(2.pi.f.C) where f is the expected frequency of the wild AC.  But it was a wild guess.

Yes, to measure the MotorWind impedance I might have to break it open to get past the built-in rectifier, else I could take the expected power and voltage (and frequency) out at a given 'favourite' wind speed and deduce an approximate value from those.

Rgds

Damon


PS. Edited out some typos from typing too fast...
« Last Edit: June 14, 2011, 05:35:06 AM by DamonHD »
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Norm

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2011, 07:29:05 PM »
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,144394.0.html
Yes I have Gee.....I'm presently using er....Model 5 ?
Also I'm over here entering my usual 50 watt/hrs.
http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen/green_virtual_gym.html
Notice ...in the 2or 3 yrs since I've been there I've pedaled about as
much as we use at home in a day ....about 20 kilowatt/hrs.
I also use the pedgen to see what different type
motors are capable of producing.
Also you can appreciate what a 50 watt/hr. rate is !

If you want to get a higher voltage with the present winds
and the generator you have make a VAWT half the diameter
and twice as tall ?
  or....got another similar servo motor ? put 2 one at top and one at bottom
hook 'em in series.
Norm.


wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2011, 08:27:53 AM »
Thanks Damon – I did mess about with an Analogue to Digital circuit a long time ago – have to remember where I put it away for future use!!!…I will tinker with that when I find it again.

Re Impedance: ……..reading around Google searches I found that one method for getting at the impedance is open-circuit voltage / short circuit current at known rpm's. 

If this is correct then from the original bench tests I did on my Servo Motor at 200 RPM, 12v/2A = 6ohm and at 500rpm. 25v/4A = ~6ohm. 

Again Googling to understand the formula you gave (cause I was not sure if ½ was 0.5 or the 2 was part of the bottom line multiplier) – I see that this is Capacitive Reactance (learning all the time!!).

Then if my maths are correct at a turbine speed of say 200rpm (3Hz) I should try capacitors of ~8846uF (rounded to nearest real availability value)?  Or should the Hz value be 3x the rotor speed because it is 3 phase, in which case I should use capacitor values of  ~2949uF (rounded to nearest real availability value)?…….or do I actually need to measure the actual AC for one phase on an oscilloscope at 200rpm?

Just trying to understand & learn a bit more….



Great stuff Norm – I had come across David Butcher's web pages when I was researching myself about pedal power.

I am a T2 diabetic and manage my glucose levels with a strict diet and exercise regime + meds (no insulin injections yet).  I do this by eating on a 6hr clock interval (up at 5am) and use a treadmill after breakfast to burn off 500 – 600 cals  and similar burnoffs by outdoor walks after lunch & supper. (I see you have to give Nellie insulation shots – say hi to her from me!!)

As I started looking at solar power & wind power it suddenly dawned on me that I was using electricity to burn off glucose…..what I could be doing is burning off glucose and creating energy with a bike genny and then use an inverter to power the treadmill….zero cost fitness!!!…..so I managed to snap up a simple exercise bike and a multipole motor (L&G direct drive – bit like an F&P drive) for my planned Exercise Bike Generator – I am mentally committed to manage my diabetes condition with my current regime – so creating electricity will not be an “additional chore”.





Focused on the wind genny at the moment but plan to start on the bike genny in the winter months – and them be able to add to your poll of exercise bike users!!

Just a bit flummoxed at the moment as to how to couple the L&G stator & rotor together as the tolerances are so tight.  Tried a bench top timber frame and my top axle bicycle hub approach from the turbine – but the whole assembly is not rigid enough to allow the rotor to rotate without clamping onto the stator!!!!
 
This Mk2 turbine is about 6:1 height:diam, ie 1.6m ht : ~30cm diam.
Have thought about having motors top and bottom – could have a go at that when I've firmed up on a turbine blade design.  Could try with my stepper motors as I have 3 of the same units.  But won't having one top and bottom need about twice the torque to get the turbine rotating as well??


Gee


Norm

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2011, 09:55:37 AM »
I'm diabetic also, partly reason for the pedgen started out great about like you
but never a great one for scientific diet that is certain types of food....just don't eat as
much ....always hungry but when I feel hungry , do something instead of a snack, and
I get distracted and forget about thinking I'm hungry.
don't have to take insulin shots.....just the dog.
I am mentally committed to manage my diabetes condition
Me also !
Hopefully we can inspire each other !

Treadmills should have end rollers about 3x in diameter as original....at least the top one
connected to a flywheel then you turn the treadmill motor, instead of it turning
you !

With a drum and weight turning the 2 motors for top and bottom in series to a  12 volt
battery you can start with a certain amount of water in the jug/s until it turns fast enough
to your target output. (I'll make a quick sketch later....back to pedaliing....getting behind schedule)
Just trying to understand & learn a bit more….

Ed Lenz and I compared output of one of his minigens to a small stepper I had using
similar diamter drums and pennies for weight....as I recall something like 47 for mine and
42 for his (or was it the other way around?)....anyhow it was an interesting experiment.







DamonHD

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #84 on: June 13, 2011, 11:01:41 AM »
wadlands: if you confuse me with someone who knows what they are talking about you're in for a nasty shock.

I would *try* with a few values around the 2200uF mark and upwards, to see how it pans out.

Rgds

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wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #85 on: June 14, 2011, 05:15:27 AM »
Hi Norm – you've already given me a boost with the fact that you use your pedgen in the manner that I intend to – so have sent you a pm with my email – guess we shouldn't clutter up the forum with our diabetic musings!!

I'll remember the suggested mods to the treadmill – for when it stops working – don't intend to take it apart just yet.




Damon hi – given that I've managed to unearth only a couple of other “simple” solutions for voltage multiplying a 3-phase where you can't get to the common point …..methinks you are being toooo humble!!!!…..having already walked the path you (and many others on the forum) know zillions more than I do….thanks for the try 2200uF+ and see suggestion – which I intend to do as this has been my approach so far.

Just a small question though – what sort of amps were you getting in your setup when using the circuit to boost to 15V at low winds?

DamonHD

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #86 on: June 14, 2011, 05:33:05 AM »
I was probably only getting 1W out, from a toy turbine, thus a fraction of an amp.  Wind is just not a good resource in my back garden!

Rgds

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Norm

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #87 on: June 14, 2011, 01:11:43 PM »
Won't those 4 posts at the corner block some of the wind ?
I usuallly just use 2   thin wall 3/4 metal conduit.
also like I suggested  motor at top and bottom  in series
.....and the WT twice as high?

As you probably noticied I'm more mechanically inclined than electronical.
Have been working on the string and drum tester also....soon as I can find that
string...Meanwhile .....back to pedaling....(works good on the memory)
Norm.

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #88 on: June 15, 2011, 11:05:23 AM »


Okay simple little setup, stepper motor with a 7/8 inch drum attached to shaft
string wrapped around drum suspended paper cup with pennies added until weight
overcomes 'cogging' 35 pennies works.

Motor connected to 4-AA NiCad batteries voltage at 5.3 .

Total of 70 pennies in cup and reel unwinds at 4ft. per 5 seconds max. charging voltage
was 6.1volts.

The same can be done with larger motors and bigger weights......reduction gear for less
travel and higher rpm.    .....etc.

Ah.....Just plain Fun!

Norm.

wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #89 on: June 15, 2011, 12:16:09 PM »
Norm – you're right about the 4 posts blocking some of the wind – I tried to make it sturdy cause I was not sure what level of vibration I would get.  The wooden tower is not intended to be the final turbine mount but is intended to give me a robust testing platform.  And I kow that with the "proper" slimmer tower the results can only be better ie rotation starts at lower wind speeds or rpm's go up compared to current results.  It's also all bolted together so I can reuse the timber!!

It enables me to easily swap in & out different motors/genny's and to test different heights of turbines eg the Mk1 & Mk2 and I can go upto about double my existing diameter. 

(eg I've swapped out the servo motor so I can do some bench tests with Damon's CW 3Phase Voltager Multiplier circuit and mounted the Stepper for its first tests with the Mk2 turbine…..it's raining now of course!!!)

I'm thinking that the Mk3 will be a 3-stage, larger diameter than Mk2 but not as tall.  These 3 prototypes will give me a good relative feel of the tradeoffs between height, number of stages and diameter…..I think…..and just from 3 prototypes.  I'm still not balancing the turbines as I see that as “wasted” effort at this stage.

After Mk3 I will focus on my final turbine design and learning how to balancing it & then a much slimmer tower – the working solution for producing some electricity……he hopes….




Your bespoke motor / genny testing unit…..devilishly ingenious!!!!


Gee

Norm

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #90 on: June 15, 2011, 01:40:57 PM »
 Present commercial WT use gears to speed up the rpm to the alternator.
but they are just starting to develop ones with no gears....direct drive.

  Which is what you are doing....that is the best way to go any gears at all involves
friction.

Now as soon as you get the voltage multiplier figured out I can work on one of the treadmill
motors going at a slower speed and put out a charging voltage of 14 volts when at present
I only get about 5 volts open circuit ?

  Build a Gazebo and mount your VAWT in the peak .....use a riding mower deck arbor
for the bottom bearing and you won't need support for the top.
  Then you can just let it rain !

 Norm.

wadlands

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Re: Servo Motor - CW Voltage Multiplier Initial Results
« Reply #91 on: June 15, 2011, 02:31:10 PM »
Ok – been testing the Cockroft & Walton Voltage Multiplier circuit that Damon suggested – got some results - if they're of use to others. 

Also had some fun & games with Murphy sneaking in and out of the test procedures ….. blew two zener diodes and then had me totally mystified with a gap on the copper track of the scrap veroboard I'd used….causing a lot of …….well it was working a minute ago!!!!  Anyway made some forward headway…..eventually.

Also did some background reading to try and understand CW multipliers a bit more – so if anyone else wants to dig a bit deeper here are the links that I used – maybe of use to someone ….

http://ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/Semi/SEMI_3.html#xtocid154497   - click on Voltage Multiplers in the Chapter 3 contents listing.

Some insight into why pairs of larger & smaller caps here - on page323 (note that the download is only Chapter18 ie 23 pages – and not 323+ pages!!!) :

http://deanostoybox.com/hot-streamer/TeslaCoils/OtherPapers/NorthReport/north18.pdf


I started by clocking the servo motor output with an oscilloscope to get a better feel of the “f” to use in the Capacitative Reactance formula – came out at about 7 – 10Hz for the sort of rpm's I was looking for at low wind speeds …..measured at 10 second counts using a precision finger on my portable drill as the drive for the servo motor.  Here's the scope pics:





So started with 10000UF and 4700uF combos for the CW Voltage Multiplier circuit (cf my “theory” values of  ~8800uF & ~3000uF) on my rapid assembly breadboard (well a 50p chopping board actually!!). 



Then tested with 4700uF & 2200uF combo and then 2200uF and 1000uF combo.  Results here, all are current draw into a ~50% flat lead gel 12v, 7.2Ah battery :



Seems that the formula's worth using – better results with the biggest combo of caps - may just try a slightly larger combo of caps to see if amps can go up further cause it looks promising / useful to be able to get 40 to 150mA at very low rpm / wind speeds and almost 0.5amp when currently I wouldn't be getting anything.

Need to do some more bench tests with even bigger caps still, then 12v car lead acid battery current throughput and then back into the tower for some real wind driven results……Worth remembering that at 200rpm the Servo on the original bench tests was still only just getting to 12v and 2amps SC current.  It was achieving ~12v OC at about 7-8mph winds in the test tower.


Gee

DamonHD

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #92 on: June 15, 2011, 04:03:37 PM »
Very interesting!

Did any of the caps become warm to the touch at any point?

Rgds

Damon
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wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #93 on: June 16, 2011, 04:04:33 AM »
Damon - hi - no the caps didn't get warm at all

Gee

wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - More Test Results
« Reply #94 on: June 17, 2011, 08:05:13 AM »
Finished off testing the CW Voltage Multiplier circuit with bigger caps to learn what happens;  22000uF & 1000uF combo then 22000uF & 10,000uF combo:



…it would appear that the 22,000uF caps now just take too long to fully charge and play their part in multiplying the voltage.  With the 22000uF & 10,000uF combo the zenner dumping excess voltage (? I think?) can be seen as the caps try to pass charge to each other but then the zenner dumps the over voltage (an electronics rookie explanation!!)

Then moved on to testing the more “standard” approach to 3 phase voltage multiplier's (again the circuit is from Damon's link & web page – credit & thanks to him again for sharing).  




A hand flick of the motor shaft gives 15v to 20v OC and it maxes out at 50v OC when driven.  I was expecting the 10,000uF combination to give the best results as this was the cap size better matched to the 7-10Hz frequency before in the CW circuit.  But in this circuit it appears to be that a value of 4700uF is better.  Also no amps till rotation is over 18 –20 rpms/10sec (ie 100 to 120rpm), all tests into a ~50% 12v lead gel battery -  results here:



I am sure that the results are no surprise to the many electronic wizards out there – just me learning as I go & hoping that by sharing it may help any other rookies like me out there!!!

My take on what I've found:

The CW Voltage Multiplier circuit starts to deliver amps at very low rpm (~10mA at 78rpm) whereas the “Standard” 3 Phase Doubler doesn't really kick in until about 120rpm and appears to deliver  the same at the 200rpm mark as the CW multiplier circuit.  (All of no interest to the HAWT's out there cause they've got   oodles of rpm's!!!!!)

But for my approach to a “manageable size” two stage Savonius style wind turbine – the CWW Voltage Multiplier with the AC Servo Motor looks like a workable solution – almost “always” giving some amps and getting upto nearly half an amp in higher winds.

Any comments welcome of course……


………..had some light gusts yesterday – so started testing the stepper motor for the first time with the Mk2 turbine ….more later…...


Gee
« Last Edit: June 17, 2011, 08:10:52 AM by wadlands »

wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Stepper Motor Rocks Again!
« Reply #95 on: June 20, 2011, 12:05:44 PM »
The original reason for building the Mk2 turbine was to get more torque for the stepper motor, which wouldn't start turning till about 10 to 12mph winds; but then go on to give about 0.5amp into a battery at 15mph winds.

So really chuffed to find that the stepper will now start in low winds of 5 – 8mph and cut in volts of 14v to 16v at 4 to 6mph winds – hooray!! 

Once rotation is started it will then still deliver about 9v OC at 2-3mph;

24v       at 7-8mph
30-35v    at 9-10mph
50v       at 12-13mph

…..stepper motor continues to look promising.

Last tests still to do with the Mk2 turbine now on the Indiana 24v DC motor….and then onto designing the Mk3 turbine.  Hoping to make it at 18 inch diameter, about 50% wider than now and with 3 stages but not as tall as the Mk2.  Hoping to get a tad more torque / easy starting without losing too many rpm's.

Meanwhile tripped across a large heavyweight dc motor going cheap; 180v dc, 7 amps, nominal 2000rpm.  So been bench testing it: 17v open circuit, 2.5 amps SC ~ 200rpm and 45v open circuit, 5 amps SC ~ 500rpm.  With  a charge current of between 1.5 to 2.5 amps into a flat 12v lead acid battery.







A question for those who know about these things:

My learning so far is that if you have above the cut-in volts then the battery on charge “determines” the current drawn from the genny – how / why does this happen.  For example in these bench tests with this large dc motor the initial amps into the battery are around 2.5+ amps but then fall away to 1.5amps?

I hope someone can help me understand this better?

Also I read somewhere on the forum that in principle  “rpm makes the volts” and “torque delivers the amps”. 

Does that mean that if I was able to hold my rpm's at the same level for a given wind speed in my Mk3 turbine as my Mk2 turbine.  But I was able to create more torque then I would deliver more amps into the battery / faster charging rate?

Again I hope someone can chip in to help me understand this?


Gee

wadlands

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #96 on: June 23, 2011, 09:59:28 AM »
Hmmmmmm…..no one seems to know!!!!….whatever happened to Teaching A Man To Fish…..

Anyway continuing my quest for knowledge & understanding as I continue to swim around the wind power pool – I've only managed to uncover two articles which sort of help me understand – I've posted them in case they are an aid to any other Newbies & Learners hungry to understand.

The first article – “The Battery Charge Process” I thought summed up my problem in the first paragraph:

* The Battery Charge Process.pdf (16.32 kB - downloaded 245 times.)


Batteries are complex mechanisims….so it comes as no surprise that non-technical people have a hard time understanding the charge process”…..how insightful!!!

The second is a link to  a posting & subsequent exchanges on the WindyNation forum. 

http://www.windynation.com/community/threads/maintaining-current-output-even-under-load.206/


The originator appears to pose the same question as I did – and I do sort of undertand the replies that more load will require more current will require more torque from the wind turbine.  BUT I still don't get why if you are just charging a battery the turbine can't deliver more amps (for a given motor / genny).

OR is it that given the rpm's the turbine is running at – and given the volts per rpm your motor / genny is capable of then the limit to the current available is amps = V/R and limited by the coil resistances of the motor / genny.  Ok I can get that but then why will the battery still draw less current than that???

Anyone care to share their knowledge of these matters???

Gee

Madscientist267

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #97 on: June 23, 2011, 11:49:14 AM »
Because batteries are not a 'static' load, there is a multitude of variable activity that simply can't be summed up in a single phrase or even concept.

At cut-in, the battery is said to be 'clamping' the generator, meaning that is the point at which the battery begins to present itself as a load to the charging source. Below the cut-in voltage, and behind a diode, there is no current flow because the generator cannot overcome the potential at the battery terminals.

Once cut-in is reached, a new set of rules begins to apply, and are dependent on things like terminal voltage, state of charge, internal impedance, and so on. Those are the three that have the most notable effect (in terms of understanding the concepts) in what happens when a battery is connected to a generator.

If you leave the battery out of it for a moment, you'll recall that if you short the genny output, you see instant loading on the shaft, regardless of speed. The counter-torque is always there. The torque increases with speed.

Without overcomplicating things, the current that flows in the wiring at that point is limited by little more than the internal impedance of the windings in the generator, the wiring leading to the short, the short itself, and any diodes that might be in place. Any input on the shaft is converted to heat in these components, and the more energy going into the shaft (in torque and RPM), the more heat will come out. They are directly proportional.

The same thing happens with a battery involved, except, you must reach the cut-in voltage first before current will begin to flow. Until cut-in, the genny only effectively sees an open circuit at it's output.

If you could spin the genny fast enough by hand, this would become more than apparent, but normally, it requires more RPM than one can muster by hand. A 'pedgen' comes to mind as a better example, but not everyone has ever experienced such a thing.

Long story short, the shaft will spin freely up until cut-in, and then significant resistance to further increases in speed will 'suddenly' show up. Only then is current actually beginning to flow.

The battery's terminal voltage will affect what speed the genny will cut in at, and the internal impedance of the battery will affect how much current it will draw. Both are affected by the state of charge of the battery, and with internal impedance in particular, age and use of the battery is also a factor.

So, first you have to overcome cut-in, then you have to get the shaft spinning faster than that, while also providing torque (the force that will make the RPM of the shaft actually mean something in terms of power), and then your battery has to accept what it is being given.

Hence "complex mechanisms".

Indeed. I agree.

Hope this helps a little.

Steve
The size of the project matters not.
How much magic smoke it contains does !

Norm

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Re: Stepper Motor Genny - Increasing Amps - How?
« Reply #98 on: June 23, 2011, 12:13:43 PM »
I don't know Gee.....I just pedal away ....of the dozens of batteries that I
have charged .....all similar they all charge about the same for me....I just
peddle at a certain speed ....about 55rpm(crankshaft) just increasing it to 60rpm
requires a lot more torque and the WP (peak watts) goes from 60 to 75 which
means about from 2.5 amps to 3.0 amps.

I really don't think about it ....just charge each one for about 6 minutes and the
WattsUp meter says it's taken 5 watt/hrs. and the battery reads it's usual 13.3- 13.8.....
No problem No worries....not trying to sound smart a... about it just the way I feel...
some issues just frustrate me....however I do have the utmost respect for what you are
trying to find out about it....

Steve has said it much better than I can....his quote....
 A 'pedgen' comes to mind as a better example, but not everyone has ever experienced such a thing.
says exactly what I had in mind also.

sometimes you can't find a definite answer.....and that's part of the learning  too !

Mostly the voltage changes as the battery gets charged .

Norm.