Author Topic: options (Read 11558 times)

wpowokal · « **on:** April 13, 2011, 11:16:21 PM »

As I am moving on and new to hydro I thought I would ask, where we are going has had 7m of rain this year so hydro is an option, the existing creek crossing has a pipe under it which I suspect could be used to house a micro turbine modeled on the Ampair unithttp://www.ampair.com/ampair/products.asp. It seems to me a boat prop could be suitably mounted inside a pipe with extended shaft out to the generator.

A rough twig test showed 20m in 45 seconds, width on main channel 1.75m depth 0.25-0.3m. In the pic the pipe under the crossing is partially blocked, the block has two creeks but lets just present one for now.

In the tropics solar is not so great in the wet season but the creeks flow good, apart from the occasional cyclone wind in the jungle is not so great, so I will leave my wind turbines behind.

Any suggestions welcome, and you can tell me I have gone troppo already.

allan

DanG · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2011, 09:01:36 AM »

Does your install have to be stealthed? You have ownership to alter the flow? I imagine enough vegetation and fiberous druff rolls through there there would be issues with the submerged unit.

That river crossing shows a small upstream settling-impound area - maybe formed because the pipe is partially clogged - that has enough drop immediately downstream a water wheel might work for micro-hydro?

wpowokal · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2011, 08:16:51 PM »

Dan technically thou shall not interfere change alter or otherwise disturb a natural water course, however, many people up there are using hydro, neighbors don't dob on neighbors as it is a small community. I realy need to start living there to obtain accurate flow, fall & seasonal variation figures.

The upstream pond( swimming hole as beach swimming is not practical in the wet season because of stingers and crocodiles) is caused by the crossing and raised by the blocked pipe,this slowing of the creak is causing silt(a good source of land fill material) to drop out.

A company a bit father south and up in the hills has developed a Banki Crossflow Turbine which they market, although as general rule they are dealing with streams with a greater fall, such streams do exist in this rain forest but not on the block I am looking at, however the back stream would probably lend it's self to one or more of these. www.boutiquepower.com.au/micro-hydro/crossflow_construction_guide.pdf

allan

hydrosun · « **Reply #3 on:** April 15, 2011, 10:01:51 PM »

If you read many of the discussions on hydro one thing always comes out ,the more head you can develop the easier and cheaper the hydro will be. If you try to use a propeller in the pipe it will have an equivilent of about 1/2 foot head. If you go over the concrete in place for the crossing you have at least a foot. If you extend a flume from that point a ways downstream you might get several feet head. All at little impact on the stream beyond the crossing already in place. So you could get multiples more power with little extra effort. Or use less water and a smaller and faster turbine/generator for the same amount of power.
Chris

wpowokal · « **Reply #4 on:** April 16, 2011, 12:24:52 AM »

Thanks for that Chris, there are many options but nothing concrete until I get on site and access how much more I can dam up the creek without affecting anybody else, I suspect from what I saw on the initial whistle stop visit it may be possible to get near 3m head by as you say raising the crossing.

allan

Lowhead · « **Reply #5 on:** April 21, 2011, 03:18:16 PM »

It looks to me like if you raise that crossing 3m, the barn in the background will be partially submerged. Maybe it's just the photo angle.

Andy

Bruce S · « **Reply #6 on:** April 21, 2011, 05:38:54 PM »

He should be just fine

.
Using the tress as measure he's got at least 3M of height from water level to barn floor, probably more like 4 meters.
Nice creek too.

Bruce S

wpowokal · « **Reply #7 on:** April 21, 2011, 07:48:27 PM »

This is up stream where the creek enters the property.

And again around midway between entry and crossing, there is enough free-board to raise things a meter, what I have to check is that in doing so I did not alter the creek for the nearest neighbor. Fortunately there are two vacant blocks upstream of this place, since this area is the oldest rain forrest in the world they have stopped any further building so unless those two block owners have existing building authority they will never be built on them.

An Re contractor who is going into the area next week to load test the diesel generator, tells me the creek does slow down in the dry but the back creek stays good. Even if I had good hydro during the wet season (much less solar power) and none in the dry then that is OK, every 100 watts is 2.4 Kw/day ignoring all losses.

One good point about this place is there is only a generator and a set of old gell batterie set so Allan is not buying a system of unknown condition and age, a complete new system works for me. Until that is installed I will take a 24V 3Kw inverter with me to run off those batteries.

Allan

WoodWaterWheel · « **Reply #8 on:** April 24, 2011, 07:08:40 PM »

Hi, An axial flow turbine would be a good choice without damming the stream much, If you could fill a 10" pipe and get 3m of head you could make over 800 watts. just a thought.
I'm currently building some and it looks like you've got a good site.
Spencer

wpowokal · « **Reply #9 on:** April 24, 2011, 08:08:19 PM »

Spencer have you had a prototype working ans what style of impeller are you using?

Allan

hydrosun · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2011, 01:26:56 PM »

There are two ways to develop more head. One is to raise a dam to back up the water to a higher level. The other is to use a level flume, canal or pipe to carry the water down stream to a lower spot. That way you don't have to back up the water and flood an area and make a higher fish barrier. The flume may be costlier but have less impact.
Chris

Harold in CR · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2011, 02:27:36 PM »

Quote

The other is to use a level flume, canal or pipe to carry the water down stream to a lower spot.

This is what I am trying to do. I have figured I can go from 8' of head, to 20'. 60-62 watts is all the calculators tell me is available at .55 efficiency. Going from 30 GPM to 40 GPM, puts me into 86 watts available. Over 12 hours, at night, that's still 1+ Kw to the batteries.

ghurd · « **Reply #12 on:** April 27, 2011, 02:45:57 AM »

"Fortunately there are two vacant blocks upstream of this place, since this area is the oldest rain forrest in the world they have stopped any further building so unless those two block owners have existing building authority they will never be built on them."
and
"many people up there are using hydro, neighbors don't dob on neighbors as it is a small community."

uh... so maybe they would not mind or notice if you happened to run an 8" pipe a couple thousand meters upstream?
Maybe a 4" pipe 100 meters upstream?

What is the box in upstreem,jpg?

What is a "stinger"? The fact you mentioned it before crocodiles is alarming to me!
(I did google it, came up with box jellies, and that can't be right, can it?)

G-

wpowokal · « **Reply #13 on:** April 27, 2011, 05:05:34 AM »

when we get there I will walk the creaks and a sus out my options, the box in the upstream pic is a few concrete slabs where a pump was apparently sitting.

"Stingers" I was talking about are Box jellyfish their tentacles can be several meters long and not easy to see. Crocks are big and easier to see, if one does not swim in their creak they don't lounge in my lounge room and basically the come out at night.

Most people have a swimming pool or in our case a creak for those hot sultry days. I am planning for as much solar as I can afford, there is a government subsidy just waiting for the local Re guy to get to me, hopefully I will get 8-10 Kw of solar so add some hydro in the wet season (best flow) and batteries should be kept well charged even if we install some air conditioning.

Still packing my toys into a sea container, never knew I had 9 tape drive motors, a bit hard to throw much out so the container is going to be heavy.

A few pics on IRC of the place we are going to http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album125 the second hand batteries shown we will use until our new system is installed then I will pass them back to the house seller, I will have no use for them so they might as well be used. Taking one of my 24V 3Kw inverters to get through until the new system is installed, downside is there is only the DG to charge them at this stage but should not be more than a few weeks.

Exmork make a low head turbine http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/301113835/Micro_hydro_turbine_of_low_water_head.html just waiting to see their price, it might be a starting point.

Allan

allan

zap · « **Reply #14 on:** April 27, 2011, 11:02:02 AM »

For those contemplating visiting Allan and possibly scoring a meal and bed for the night...

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=-16.246979,145.38208&spn=0.359277,0.463486&z=11

wpowokal · « **Reply #15 on:** April 30, 2011, 09:16:35 PM »

Anybody visiting the Great Barrier Reef is on my door step, that's part of it in the Google pic Zap posted,

allan

ghurd · « **Reply #16 on:** May 13, 2011, 10:58:55 AM »

One more sleep?

Best of luck!

G-

wpowokal · « **Reply #17 on:** May 14, 2011, 01:03:33 AM »

Yep one more, then up to Perth (our capital) for a meal with some of our kids, stay over night, fly out via Alice Springs Monday arrive Cairns 7Pm two days there and out to my creeks on Wednesday

.

Had a call yesterday from the truck driver who has our two uts on board, he is halfway up Queensland so they will be waiting for us in Cairns, dogs fly business class arriving Wednesday.

A contractor is to install a 10 Kw solar, 1650 A/h 48V system with an inverter the same as here, I have to use a contractor to obtain the Government subsidy. The I start playing with hydro to boost the power in the wet season.

I have worked out where the pub is, about 300M away so walk there, have a tube tied up in the creek then float home, can't be all bad.

Also have worked out that there are 4 vacant bloclks up streem of ours, so I have visions of taking a 2" poly pipe as far upstreem as possible attaching a fine strainer to the up streem end holding it down with rocks, make my way down streem adding pipe as needed and then I should have a good head. Next wet season will cover the pipe with silt so no one will know its there, now don't tell anybody will you.

Allan

TomW · « **Reply #18 on:** May 14, 2011, 05:53:59 AM »

Mums the word, buddy. Now just keep it off that internet thingie or the whole planet will know.

Best of luck on your 2nd (or is this third) retirement.

Tom

wpowokal · « **Reply #19 on:** May 14, 2011, 06:21:32 AM »

Second attempt Tom, I don't expect to be totally successfully, 1000 people live north of the river and every one has a pump and renewable energy the nearest service
business is 1.5 hours away and I have taken my trenching machine with me.

Looking forward to having enough time to develop my wind turbine idea, but first the water turbines, have not allocated job numbers yet as I sort of reset the clock so every project is new again. And then there are all those fish begging to be caught, oh and a few crocks to wrestle.

Allan

keithturtle · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2011, 11:14:25 PM »

Quote from: wpowokal on May 14, 2011, 01:03:33 AM

Also have worked out that there are 4 vacant bloclks up streem of ours, so I have visions of taking a 2" poly pipe as far upstreem as possible attaching a fine strainer to the up streem end holding it down with rocks, make my way down streem adding pipe as needed and then I should have a good head.
Allan

Not to dampen your vision, but unless you have incredible fall over that distance, two inch pipe will eat up most of your head in friction losses. And if you're gonne take a tube ride 300 meters from the pub, you don't have the head to create much pressure.

Think 10" pipe minimum, more if over 3CFS ($$$AUD)

Turtle

wpowokal · « **Reply #21 on:** May 16, 2011, 07:14:56 AM »

It's all just theory at this stage, we arrived in Cairns this evening, plan to be on site Wednesday.

Allan

wpowokal · « **Reply #22 on:** May 20, 2011, 05:57:28 AM »

Allan and blondie are in paradise, internet is a bit hit and miss ditto mobile phone (same system), tired of listening to the Lister running all day, trying the as found gel batteries this evening with just lights.

New solar system will be very welcome.

Walked/waded both creeks today, reasonable potential to create a rock dam, need to establish heights so next step is to take a hose and measure heights, will only be low head hydro. Wet season high water mark is quite high so that will be a challenge.

Allan

BruceDownunder · « **Reply #23 on:** May 28, 2011, 12:08:51 AM »

Hi Allan and Blondie . Good to see you are both here in Sunny Queensland . Welcome to the doigs also....

Hope all goes well for you both up there ,, keep away from them crockadiddiloos.. Ilda and I tried to go Brisbane today after 2.5 hrs got to Beenleigh and turned back ... thets 2.5 hrs travel from our place - 3 people killed when a semi rolled over ...2.5hrs for 100k's...

anyhow ,mate , hope all is ok , ...

Bruce

wpowokal · « **Reply #24 on:** May 28, 2011, 04:11:50 AM »

Hi Bruce been trying to catch you on chat but maybe I don't get up early enough, settling in good, had only been here 6 days and we have house guests.

New solar system goes in commencing Monday, batteries, inverter and MMPT's (3) on site, they expect to be functional by Wednesday so with this endless sunshine the DG should get a good rest.

Dozy Bandit(dog) went to the ice cream factory up the road but as usual forgot his pocket money, I received a call fro the shire ranger in WA who had had a call from Mossman shire, I would hate to be trying to hid.

No decision on hydro yet the water height in flood is going to be a problem because logs etc come floating down, that project is on simmer for now.

Allan

WoodWaterWheel · « **Reply #25 on:** June 04, 2011, 07:46:27 PM »

This new turbine would be a good choice.

wpowokal · « **Reply #26 on:** June 04, 2011, 09:25:39 PM »

I seen that on another post, is it one you made? seems to be built within a PVC union etc, looks neat any specs?

Allan

WoodWaterWheel · « **Reply #27 on:** June 04, 2011, 09:56:47 PM »

Allen, I used an all aluminum housing for the 2nd prototype but it cost a bunch and wasn't any stronge and made the same electricityr so I stayed with the PVC housing. You can see the specs @ http://www.newturbine.com/f/NT-LH_1500_Instructions[1].pdf

wpowokal · « **Reply #28 on:** June 04, 2011, 10:30:06 PM »

Spencer very interesting, it would be more up front if you mentioned in your text that you are a commercial seller, just my personal opinion, that said I like the workmanship in those timber water wheels, as to the one you mention I am interested as to why you do not use a draft tube to enhance the output, is it a matter of simplicity and therefore cost?

Allan of the jungle

WoodWaterWheel · « **Reply #29 on:** June 05, 2011, 11:52:39 AM »

Allen, First let me say that yes I do sell water wheels to pay the bills. I made twice the money as a restaurant DM but the mental and physical exercise of designing water wheels and now turbines is worth the pay cut as long as I can pay the basic bills; I live simply so the bills are low but still must be paid. I patent and copywrite nothing posted on this site. Basically I love to learn, develop, and teach, but the bills must be paid. I am a 1 man shop who occasionally hires casual laborers but 90% of the time I do it all. As a water wheel builder who didn't like charging people $5000+ to build a water wheel and generator package when I knew a turbine was often a better fudicial choice I've been playing around and researching turbines for the last 4 years. I've built test sites and a pressure flow bench and spent countless evenings researching and learning the principals involved. I realized that with the resourses I had I could build a better low head turbine for half the price of the ESD and Power Pal units out there which are primarly designed for 3rd world countries where there is no national electrical grid, expensive battery storage, and limited ability to purchase the pipe needed to build head.

I spend at least 5 hrs each week helping people on the phone and email understand these systems when I know that there is no potential sale involved, so much time in fact that I've actually placed notes on several webpages asking people to do a little research on pages I've written to help them before calling me. I put the time in to help others learn but I still need to feed my family. Every year I probably spend over 50 hours in corrispondance with kids helping them with school projects to make electricity. Kick me off this site if you like.

As for a downdraft tube both research and testing have shown that for an axiel flow trubine more power is made when when the water can escape freely because it is a positive pressure system; not a negative pressure system like a kaplan. The advantage of a positive pressure sustem is that users don't have to restart the turbine in low flow conditions (sometimes a several hour process). Positive flow systems don't develop a vortex in low flow conditions. Kaphlin turbines do and totally stop making power. Positive pressure systems don't have this problem in low flow times, instead they just reduce their power outpot assuming the minumim flow requirements are met.
Spencer Boyd

wpowokal · « **Reply #30 on:** June 05, 2011, 06:28:15 PM »

Spencer thank you for your informative reply, I doubt you are in any danger of being "kicked off", there are others on this board who share their ideas and sell a finished product for those who desire it.

I am still researching my own options, having now observed the wet season high water mark and been told of the logs that come floating down I can not simply install a unit, others have and had it washed out to sea. I do have an idea that needs a little more measuring etc then I will put it up here for suggestions, it will be low head, flow in the wet season is no problem so even if it was out of service during the dry that would not matter although any input that keeps the batteries state of charge up is a good thing.

Many stones and silt wash down during the wet, to give you an idea the first pic is of a small creek entering the sea the black bits in it are on the mover constantly washing out of the forest. The second shows some of the smaller rocks washed down in this small creek.

Allan of the jungle

Bruce S · « **Reply #31 on:** June 06, 2011, 01:08:14 PM »

A of J

---slight post tanget here---

Woodwaterwheel.
Allan is correct not too much to worry about be "kicked" off here, I liked the MADE in USA in the pipe :-).
I'm sure what he was saying was when you post such a beauty let us know if you are the builder or affiliated.

This helps people when making decisions.
With being a builder/doer this puts you in a dual position of being one who does and not an armchair quarterback AND someone people can possibly come to for realworld answers.

Cheers;
Bruce S
PS> the over-paid model looks like he could use a raise.

SparWeb · « **Reply #32 on:** June 20, 2011, 03:17:34 PM »

Spencer, you have a HAAS? Nice toy.

As for the commercial tangent, it's fine by me. Just remember that not every problem requires your particular solution, and be willing to help either way. Other respected members on the board have built kits or products they sell, too. It's about sharing the ideas, so an attitude like "don't look inside my black box" won't fly - but it sounds like you're the opposite to that. Welcome aboard.

News:

Author Topic: options (Read 11558 times)