Using Multiple Motors?

[foogimicester]

Hey, guys. I'm really interested in wind turbines, but I have no money with which to spend on trying it (also, I don't have the space for a wind turbine with ten foot rotors).

I want to try something with materials on hand... five small motors from a toy t-rex. It's a little toy that followed me for a couple of years.
Now, none of them are anywhere near large enough or strong enough to mount rotors on. (I could hide one in my hand)

They are not labeled, and I don't have a mutlimeter yet, so I can't say how powerful they are. However, when I connected one of them to a speaker and spun it by hand (and by gear), the sound of the motor was amplified by the speaker. So, it's my guess that it is easy enough to produce a small amount of electricity with them.

My plan is to create a small (3 foot diameter) turbine that will be mounted to the roof. On the back, instead of a motor, there would be a gear, large enough to spin all five motors. (it's extremely easy to spin them, when connected to something or when free spinning). Each of the motors would connect to the battery.

I want to ask if this is crazy before I try it though.
One of my concerns: is there a way to combine the power before converting it to something usable? If I can't, the majority of the power might be lost in conversion.

[Norm]

Just get a small stepper motor....someone on line can probably
give you better advice on them than I .
IF you get the right kind....they are capable of lighting a LED lamp
(20) LEDs with a flick of your fingers!
    First things first tho is to get a Mult-Meter from Harbor Freight for
about $2. 98 and start measuring the amount of electricity that your
little motors make...
  And/Or .if one of your motors cannot at least light up the
3LEDs in a push button LED light that you can get from DollarTree for
$1....then forget using them.
Norm

[foogimicester]

One of the motors I have now was able to light up a red LED with a flick of the finger.
That seems alright, considering my plan should spin it faster, and more frequently...
and the wires won't be connected by my hands 

I don't really think I'll be able to propose buying a motor to my parents until I can show some results though.
Do you think the five motor gear set up would work?
And could I just run the wires together so the power is combined before converted?

[REdiculous]

If you can hide one of the motors in your hand then it's gonna be extremely hard to make the gearing and if you get it working the output will be low even with 5 motors.

Combining 5 toy motors isn't very realistic - I think your parents would be less likely to give you money after seeing you make something that doesn't work (/barely works). Better would be to do a little more research and come up with a parts list, prices and expected output....show 'em you mean business and that you won't be wasting your time and their money. later

[tanner0441]

Hi

If you can get a stepper motor from a printer with a two bladed prop it will actually light a 24V Snap On test lamp to full brightness.  I had a set up with the stepper from my old pen plotter with an 18in blade stuck on a length of pipe tied to a gate post. My set up was never going to do any battery charging, my site is crap but it was fun  to watch. It even melted the plastic housing in a storm one night.

As said earlier you do need a meter of some kind, and a cheap battery or mains drill, preferably with speed control, to test things with.

I have played with all sorts of motors, the 24V motors from kids electric scooters are cheap and OKish but need a lot of speed. I have a really smart looking traction motor, but even at over 2000RPM is a waste of time.  With multiple motors, unless they are perfectly matched the poor ones will rob the good ones and the output your going to get will be too low to justify isolating diodes.

If you just want to light a bulb or a few LEDs I would try and pick up an old cycle dynamo, geared up and a 2ft prop should manage its rated 3W output, remember they are AC.

Good luck.

Brian.

[tanner0441]

Hi

You don't say where in the world you are, try looking in the classifieds there are sometimes items listed free to good home...

Brian.

[Norm]

Yes by all means tell us where you are at?
I'm in Conneaut, Ohio and you are next door? LOL !
Norm.

[zap]

Sounds like a good idea to me foog... do it and then "show and tell"

[foogimicester]

If you can hide one of the motors in your hand then it's gonna be extremely hard to make the gearing and if you get it working the output will be low even with 5 motors.

Combining 5 toy motors isn't very realistic - I think your parents would be less likely to give you money after seeing you make something that doesn't work (/barely works). Better would be to do a little more research and come up with a parts list, prices and expected output....show 'em you mean business and that you won't be wasting your time and their money. later

Before I can make a list of what I need, I need to know what it is that I need. Practicing first will help me to make a realistic plan. Knowing things in theory will only get me so far.

Hi

You don't say where in the world you are, try looking in the classifieds there are sometimes items listed free to good home...

Brian.

Yes by all means tell us where you are at?
I'm in Conneaut, Ohio and you are next door? LOL !
Norm.

I am not next door.
My location isn't really important. I'm not looking for handouts. If I ever do ask for something though, it will be after I have produced some results. I don't want to take something from anyone and not end up doing anything with it.
I appreciate that you want to help, though.

Sounds like a good idea to me foog... do it and then "show and tell"

That is the plan!



Which brings me to a confusing thing to me... unrelated to electrophyiscs completely.
How do I mount something to a ball bearing? xD

[Basil]

Like tanner0441 said. Get a stepper motor from a printer.
Then you can do this.
 http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,130262.0.html
Good luck.

[RP]

- and you can find a printer at any "Goodwill" or "Salvation Army" thrift store or yard sale for that matter for a few bucks.

[REdiculous]

Before I can make a list of what I need, I need to know what it is that I need. Practicing first will help me to make a realistic plan. Knowing things in theory will only get me so far.

That's why I said to research first.

It's gonna be nearly impossible to gear those things since they're so small....not worth the effort. Maybe a small hand-crank generator would be a better starting place since it'll already have the gearing built in.

[taylorp035]

One of my first windmills used a 12v motor out of a water pump that I found in a trash can.  It was good for 30 watts and made me happy.  There are plenty of free dc motors out there if you look for them.  Small sized motors in rc cars generally don't work well and are much harder to work with.

As RP said, a yard sale would be an excellent place, just make sure it's DC and decently sized.  The lower the RPM's/ volt, the better.

Good luck!

[foogimicester]

Before I can make a list of what I need, I need to know what it is that I need. Practicing first will help me to make a realistic plan. Knowing things in theory will only get me so far.

That's why I said to research first.

It's gonna be nearly impossible to gear those things since they're so small....not worth the effort. Maybe a small hand-crank generator would be a better starting place since it'll already have the gearing built in.

Each motor was accompanied by a handly little gear box. I'm going to remove two of the gears, because they were invovled in moving a robo leg xD
Then I'll have the prop/turbine blades attached to a piece of plastic I'm filing down to disk-shape. The plastic has an attachment on it that fits the end of the gear box.

Removing two of the gears should make it a little easier to turn, and they weren't helping anything with what I need anyway.

I also believe that it will be easier to spin when there are long blades on it. I'll probably make them out of... plastic. I think.

[foogimicester]

One of my first windmills used a 12v motor out of a water pump that I found in a trash can.  It was good for 30 watts and made me happy.  There are plenty of free dc motors out there if you look for them.  Small sized motors in rc cars generally don't work well and are much harder to work with.

As RP said, a yard sale would be an excellent place, just make sure it's DC and decently sized.  The lower the RPM's/ volt, the better.

Good luck!

I might do this soon, when school is out. I imagine the best thing to search for would be a VCR motor? If memory serves me right, those don't have very high RPM's, so they should start producing at a lower speed?

[ghurd]

You really should tell us where you are... The country?  Continent?

VCR motors may operate at a low RPM as motors, but they take a lot of RPM to light up an LED.
I am not sure how many people did many experiments with them.  This is the highlight of mine,
http://otherpower.com/toymill.html#glenh

Stepper motors are easier make work.
Here is one of mine,
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,128231.0.html

Seriously.  Get a stepper motor.  Easier.  Functional.  Free on garbage night with a bit of looking around (look for a scrap printer in the trash by the curb, and convince Dad to pick it up).
G-

[Bruce S]

OKAY, lets take stock of what you currently have and what you might be able to make use of from what your family already has on hand.
You have at least one motor that when spun by hand using the geared portion lit up a LED.
Hears some things you can help us with.
Count the teeth on the little motor, and get a ruler and measure it across from one tooth tip straight across to the other side.
Let us know the number of teeth and the measurement on the ruler.
Do the same thing for the gear you used to get the motor to spin up enough to light the red LED. Let us know this too.
These are pretty important measurements, as they will tell us the ratio of what the motor is turning at when you spin the bigger gear.
A RED LED can light in as little as 1.2V D.C.  SO we now know that that motor can at least put out something close to 1.2Vdc.
Find out what if any tools you can use, borrow is a better term.
Possible items needed will be a multimeter, small drill, battery powered or AC powered , which type is not a bug deal at this time, but it'll be easier for us if you can tell us the make & mode so we can find out what the maximum speed ( known as RPM) is. This will help in deciding what size blades are needed for best output.

PS It might have looked like people here were looking to give you something.
NOT true, just yet, and we really LIKE having someone do for themselves, before asking for anything short of helpful knowledge.

Come back with this information and we can keep helping you with useful knowledge on this adventure.
Bruce S
Question: How many batteries did it take to run the robo-monster? 

[foogimicester]

I'm near the west coast of Florida, in the USA.

The robot used six AA batteries, to power five motors, and a speaker. There were various sensors on the robot, but those were just little buttons.

Tools that I can use:
Dremel tool (this one: http://i.ehow.co.uk/images/a04/a8/1p/using-dremel-tool-trim-dogs-800x800.jpg)
Drill (lots of drill bit sizes)
A set of files (for wind turbine blades, if I go with wood)
A small saw (looks like this: http://www.gerbergear.com/images/products/22-41514-1.jpg)
Screw Drivers

Tools that I might be able to use:
Multimeter (I plan to buy one)
Alligator clips (for quick tests)
Soldering Iron (a friend of mine has one if I really need it)

The Gears:
The gear that will be spun by the rotor is 3/4 of an inch in diameter. (2.355 circumference) - This has 32 teeth
This spins a 1/4 inch diameter gear. (0.785 circumference) - this has 8 teeth
 - Attached to this small gear on the bottom is another 3/4 inch diameter gear (2.355 circumference) - This has 32 teeth
   - ^This gear spins the motor, which has a 1/4 inch diameter gear. (0.785 circumference) - this has 8 teeth

When I slowly turn the gears by hand, the red LED lights up very brightly, compared to the dim flash that I get when I spin it by hand.

[ghurd]

Are you near a HF?  (Harbor Freight retail store)
Sign up for their emails, and they will send a coupon about once a week for a perfectly functional $3 multimeter.  Many US members here buy them 6 at a time.  They are the same meter many places sell for $15 to $30.

Buy a 15W iron from Radio Shack (about $10), and some (4 ounces?) of the tiny (0.031") solder (also about $10?).
Do not leave it plugged in too long without use, because it will ruin the replaceable ($2) tip.
Your friend probably has a 25~40W which you may need to burrow, but you need a 15W iron for most of this type of experimenting.

Can try the aligator clip variety pack from HF.  About $7?
They are pretty crappy, but most of them will be functional (some will not).

And you will need diodes.  And various resistors (to play with LEDs).  Lots of both.

Mail order HF has the shipping charge, and the handling charge.

If you are not near a HF retail store, and don't want to throw big piles of money to RatShak, I suggest you contact this guy who has been known help out young people in your situation (he takes paypal or USPS MOs).
Last I heard, he had shoeboxes full of stepper motors for sale cheap too.  His wife told me that he is a pack rat.
http://www.ghurd.info/

[Bruce S]

I have it on good authority that he is in fact a paid in-full card pack rat of the 32nd degree 
AND is known for being a very generous person, but only if you promise not to waste the materials.

[Bruce S]

The robot used six AA batteries, to power five motors, and a speaker. There were various sensors on the robot, but those were just little buttons.
Dremel tool (this one: http://i.ehow.co.uk/images/a04/a8/1p/using-dremel-tool-trim-dogs-800x800.jpg)
Drill (lots of drill bit sizes)
A set of files (for wind turbine blades, if I go with wood)
A small saw (looks like this: http://www.gerbergear.com/images/products/22-41514-1.jpg)
Screw Drivers
Tools that I might be able to use:
Multimeter (I plan to buy one)
Alligator clips (for quick tests)
Soldering Iron (a friend of mine has one if I really need it)
The Gears:
The gear that will be spun by the rotor is 3/4 of an inch in diameter. (2.355 circumference) - This has 32 teeth
This spins a 1/4 inch diameter gear. (0.785 circumference) - this has 8 teeth
 - Attached to this small gear on the bottom is another 3/4 inch diameter gear (2.355 circumference) - This has 32 teeth
   - ^This gear spins the motor, which has a 1/4 inch diameter gear. (0.785 circumference) - this has 8 teeth

When I slowly turn the gears by hand, the red LED lights up very brightly, compared to the dim flash that I get when I spin it by hand.

OKAY,
from this you seem to already have most of what you will need.
Like GHURD said, do a quick search for a HF in your area. Most of the stuff they have is not top of the line, but perfect for beginning and their meters are good enough for me, even though I won several top notch Flukes. You even get a nice battery for the unit to boot.
At $3/ea they are darn good! The have the soldering Iron too but if they don't have the small 15W or smaller, don't bother the others are too hot and could ruin the wires on the motors.
The gears numbers tell me they are geared for 1:4 ratio which means that for each turn of the bigger gear the little one is turning 4 times. Having the multiple gearing is more for torque then speed. I'll bet the robo-monster doesn't move very fast either

On the drill or better the dremel, do you have the chuck accessory? if so you can use that to get a known rpm and turn the motor with a meter to get a voltage measurement from the motor and possibly the current as well.
As Ghurd said HF also has a combo pack of alligator clips, they will do for this but that's about it. Any real pressure and they start to bend  .

The reason for these tests with the meter a tools, is to find at what voltage the motor is lighting up the LED. Too high and the LED will burn out.
 One thing I forgot to ask was how the batteries were aligned in the holder. My gut tells me they're aligned in a way that gives you 4.5voltes DC and higher current so ALL those motors can turn with the gearing giving the speed and torque to move. The speaker needs very little power of any kind, I'll bet it's a 8 0r 16 Ohm speaker.
IF you could put up a post of what the voltage coming out of the battery holder is that would help. IF it's 7.2Vdc I'll be very surprised, but still possible.
More likely it's 4.2 which means those motors, when spun, are putting out around 3Vdc which is more than enough to light the LED.

Cheers
Bruce S

 

[foogimicester]

Gurd:

There is an HF nearby, but I've seen people raving about you on this forum for a while now. (I've been watching this board sometimes for several months)
The HF has horrible reviews, too

I want to buy from you, but your "disclaimer" scares me slightly more than it makes me laugh. xD


Bruce:
It looks like this, I think.
[-      +][-      +][-      +]
[-      +][-      +][-      +]

[foogimicester]

Scratch that, it looks like this:
Spring:[-     +][-     +]:----flat
----flat:[+     -][+     -]:Spring
Spring:[-     +][-     +]:----flat

[Bruce S]

Scratch that, it looks like this:
Spring:[-     +][-     +]:----flat
----flat:[+     -][+     -]:Spring
Spring:[-     +][-     +]:----flat

Now it looks to be 3Vdc. Might be a good idea, when you have a meter to set it to DC volts 20Vdc should be fine unless it has a setting for 12Vdc and if still possible, put the batteries in and measure the voltage using the two wires coming off the battery holder. Should be red and black, but no guarantees . The meter can show both pos (+) and Neg (-) voltages.
Let us know what that is.
Bruce S
   

[foogimicester]

I left the wires on everything, and in some cases, the plugs to the circuit board.
The battery holder does have the black and red cords. When I get a voltmeter I'll be sure to check it.


On another note, I know someone who might be able to hook me up with ceiling fans.
My uncle made a turbine in hunting camp with a ceiling fan motor.
Good idea to try and get one?

If I can, I won't be able to build ten foot blades or something big like that.

[Bruce S]

I left the wires on everything, and in some cases, the plugs to the circuit board.
The battery holder does have the black and red cords. When I get a voltmeter I'll be sure to check it.


On another note, I know someone who might be able to hook me up with ceiling fans.
My uncle made a turbine in hunting camp with a ceiling fan motor.
Good idea to try and get one?

If I can, I won't be able to build ten foot blades or something big like that.

Good to see the red and black cables are still there.
Yes, the ceiling fans work...to some degree. Either google search this board for just that or do a search up close the the home button and search for ceiling fan conversion.
Read through those before venturing out to those, there's a whole new world of abilities to get one working.
I would read up on those before buying the fans from someone, if they're free then go for them, can always turn the copper in for scrap to buy more stuff
<like Meters >

[Norm]

I have it on good authority that he is in fact a paid in-full card pack rat of the 32nd degree 
AND is known for being a very generous person, but only if you promise not to waste the materials.

I'll second that !
  Norm.

[Bruce S]

I have it on good authority that he is in fact a paid in-full card pack rat of the 32nd degree 
AND is known for being a very generous person, but only if you promise not to waste the materials.

I'll second that !
  Norm.

Hey Norm, how's it going? How the battery stash holding up?
I must admit, I'm not too far behind that guy though  BUT my card dues is overdue 
Have fun! I'm off to go ride the 150cc in the rain home.
Bruce S