Author Topic: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)  (Read 6728 times)

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Norm

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How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« on: May 11, 2011, 11:23:39 PM »
If I take 20 NiCad c-size batteries and configure them into 12-14 volt charge them
to 13.5 volts....then using a WattsUp meter hooked up to a Treadmill motor no load
, take note of how many watt-hrs until the battery drops down to 10 volts....
Maybe 5 like that......then anything way below average of course would be bad and
try to correct it....of course the goal would be to try to get them all as good as the
best?
   Of course if Bruce knows what they should be with this test ?  Bruce ? You there ?
LOL !
Norm.

Bruce S

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2011, 10:25:38 AM »
Norm;
Just seeing this, a clear warm DRY night had me enjoying the patio last night til bedtime.  ;D
I've kind of done this part already so I'll put up what I've seen.
I'm now building my larger unit at 14.4 which is nice since it uses an even 12 Sub-Cs and they stack real nice.
These are rated at 1300mA each and I don't think I've shipped any out that are less than 70% of the original rating of 1.3Ahr, mostly percents higher than that.

The real cool thing about NiCds is they try their darnedest to keep the voltage at the same level until about 90% dead then, they drop off like a zener going into conduction.
A good test or even better a good battery pack would be one that built at 14.4Vdc 1.3Ahr should be able to show the voltage to be stable and 900mA of use.
A better test would be to run the battery until it drops and take note of the watts used. If you're running the watts-up meter just off the batt pack, you might hook up the alternate power source, I did this using an old PC Hard Drive connector and 4 AA NiCds in series. This way you can let the pack drain as low as you want, even to zero if you wanted to  :( or needed to. that way you can read the results without worrying about trying to read the numbers and doing work at the same time.

 IF for some reason you have a pack that drops to 0, then you have a cell that is toast and will drag the rest of the pack down with it.
I've done this on Amy's e-bike that uses 48Vdc and the watts-up meter is the fuel gauge for me since the meter built into the bike is for acid-based batteries.
I have caught some of my home built packs doing this and wish I had a meter on each pack, it would make figuring out which pack has gone bad quicker.
I have GHURD controllers on each of the e-bike 14.4Vdc 16Ahr packs and charge them via 4 separate HF 15watt panels. This way they get the charge they need individually instead of one large pack like they SLA used to get.

A small note, once the packs pass the first 3 tests of charge/discharge cycles, I've not had any show up later with a bad cell. I have overcharged a pack (or 2  ::) ) and had them pop, but that's a different post.
I know I got a little long winded-- <o_o>

NORM Does this help?
Bruce S
 
For others reading this, the reason I chose 14.4 is the voltage "dip" that occurs when a load is put on these. I've seen this dip happen on the Wattups meter and saw a nice 900watt inverter go into LVD when I tried using a 12Vdc or 10-cell batt pack. The 14.4Vdc packs still have a voltage dip, but it is well within the rated limits.
A 14.4Vdc NiCd pack fully charged will read up in the 16V range, I have not had any problems with the MSW inverters going into high-voltage alarm.
The units I mess with range from 150watt up to 1000watt, the ones I do most of my testing with are 300 & 750 watt vector units, the 900 watt unit came with a 700watt Microwave and has no other outside markings on it. 
The little 150 & 300 watt inverters run just fine --mostly-- on the 12Vdc 10-cell packs too, so if you have a bunch already built I wouldn't tare them apart.
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Norm

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2011, 04:18:15 PM »
The real cool thing about NiCds is they try their darnedest to keep the voltage at the same level until about 90% dead then, they drop off like a zener going into conduction.

Yep that's how a scooter motor burns up when you use lead-acid batteries when the voltage
gets too low the motor heats up and becomes toast ....right?
Not as apt to happen when using NiCads....
I plan on using your 18 volt paks....just by-passing the integral cut-outs
2 in series will make 36 volts for my DIY E-bike to spin a treadmill motor.....maybe a couple
of them to plug in like the batt-pak on cordless drills.
Yep what you're doing helps for a future project when it comes to running inverters and 4 cells in a
stack like what the 16 in a pak is and they.....gotta stop for now dog is being a pest.
Norm

Bruce S

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2011, 04:46:26 PM »
NORM,
Pet the puppy for me too :).
Question, are you going to use a standard charger to recharge the battery packs?
Might be better to keep the packs at 18V bring them up to the Ahr level you're looking for, BUT every pack I had at 20A had internal hot spots and a couple of them have popped a battery in the middle of the packs.
I have an email out to a real battery engineer asking about this and the way we build these up, but no replies yet.
Anyway, bring the packs up to Ahr levels then and charge them as individual 18V sets then combine the two packs for a combined 36V nominal. Fully fully charged you'll see a resting voltage about 20V.
If you go the long route like I did, set the GHURD controllers to dump at 19V  this will bring it to about 95% full (19.5 would be 97% full) and you should not have any thermal problems.
I'm curious to see your e-bike :)
PS YES on the burning up of the motor , OR it could be your thumb if you touch the copper that links the 18Ahr SLAs together  ::)

How's your inventory of batteries holding up?
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Norm

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2011, 05:41:36 PM »
About 7 watts with my combined in series 3 VW panels or about 7 minutes to put about 5 watt/hrs into 1 12 volt 75 amp/hr. SLA and 18 volt
NiCad in series.....as I'm pedaling the WattsUp meter says about 60Wp. things don't get very warm....the motor will be geared down very
low where top speed about 15 with me pedaling doubt if it will draw much over a 100 watts.
   Hope I can get the E-bike going before the end of summer....(I'm slow )
Norm.

willib

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2011, 06:15:38 PM »
Hi Norm , funny i was asking myself a similar question  the other day.
I had been charging my BruceCads and was watching them climb from 18 to 25 Volts over many hours.
They then preceded to do their all too familiar drop in voltage from 25V down to 22 and change.
Anyway during this process i googled 'NiCd charging curve '
And found this site   
http://www.electrodynam.com/rc/totm/totm1100.shtml
and they have a nifty charging curve on there , and he says that a NiCd will have a peak of about 1.65V per cell and then decline from there ,
Have you found this out to be true ? or do you charge them a bit after they appear done?
They were sort of warm by the time they got down to 22.85 V , so i'm thinking that i will shut them off a little sooner the next time..

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Norm

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2011, 08:52:54 AM »
Hi willib....wow thanks....I guess my brain was on vacation when I read Bruce's reply.
only one time I noticied this and quickly shut it off....was afraid I had goofed.....
I usually just charge these in 10 cells so when the voltage gets to where I can quit
charging and after a few minutes it stays at 13.50 which means 1.35 volt per cell , I
figured that was good enough....as looking at the curve anything over that quickly drops down to
1.35 anyways and at that point I figured that took longer to get there than to stay there ?
and like I've read and concluded batteries getting hot or even warm to the touch is something
to be avoided....  :o
I'm going over to that link you posted now.....later...
Norm.

Bruce S

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2011, 10:27:10 AM »
willib;
 That is a nifty link :) was a nice read, I liked the bubba parts too :)
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Norm

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2011, 12:09:22 PM »
willib;
 That is a nifty link :) was a nice read, I liked the bubba parts too :)

willib, I liked it too!
Bruce....all the ones that get your batteries or have NiCads should be steered to this link.
Norm.

Bruce S

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2011, 01:27:31 PM »
willib;
 That is a nifty link :) was a nice read, I liked the bubba parts too :)

willib, I liked it too!
Bruce....all the ones that get your batteries or have NiCads should be steered to this link.
Norm.
NORM: I  agree 110%.
 Anymore new people that I send I will try and remember to point them to this one. I used to suggest battery U , but this one is much easier to understand.
Have fun!
B-)
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Norm

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2011, 07:57:25 PM »
Yep...I'm having fun....learning and paying attention to what goes on with
NiCads.
Okay....now if I were to take 2-2.5s drain them down to 2 volts each put them
in series and charge them back up the WattsUp meter would read 2 or almost 3
Amp/hrs. ?
I pedal charged 2 of thesein series that were only down to 12 some volts each .
pedaled 20 watts and they were 26.6 total and the amp/hrs were .835 (I think I
remember it as) that's 835 milliamps....does that sound about right?

Bruce S

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Re: How do I know if I have a good battery (NiCad)
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 10:14:48 AM »
Yep...I'm having fun....learning and paying attention to what goes on with
NiCads.
Okay....now if I were to take 2-2.5s drain them down to 2 volts each put them
in series and charge them back up the WattsUp meter would read 2 or almost 3
Amp/hrs. ?
I pedal charged 2 of thesein series that were only down to 12 some volts each .
pedaled 20 watts and they were 26.6 total and the amp/hrs were .835 (I think I
remember it as) that's 835 milliamps....does that sound about right?
Norm;
 Was out of contact for a few days. Yep sounds about right. That puts the individual cell at 1.33V which is about right for resting batteries.
Hope that helps.
Sorry for the long wait.
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