Group Alternator Design/Build Project?

[DIYDarren]

Good day! I'm a relative newby to the board here, but have been reading for a while and am an avid DIYer in most things mechanical/techy. I previously have been involved in various DIY communities, including in a moderator status, so would like to bring this experience to this community.

I have a question / proposition for all...

From the reading and studying of this Alt Energy community so far, it appears that there is a gap in the availability of suitable Alternators for use in the small windpower DIY community. Is this true?

I derive this conclusion from seeing lots of projects of people making their own Axial Flux Alternators, or trying to use various motors and automotive alternators for their projects. Is this 'cause people just like to tweak around, or because there aren't any lowish-cost products available?

If there is a need for an alternator for the individual windmill user, I guess I want to know what you all think of participating in a group design/build of something appropriate for this audience? Something focused on low-cost and meeting your own needs, that can become sort of a standard design to help forward the wind power cause.

My brother-in-law has a small business doing prototype manufacturing, and he is amazing at all things mechanical-- machining, fabricating, and is good with all sorts of moving parts. Myself, I previously worked in the loudspeaker industry, so have a decent knowledge of electromagnetics, windings, adhesives, and manufacturing. We have access to a well-equipped shop with all the needed equipment, plus have the experience at prototype designing and fabrication. Plus, I am a Technical Writer by day, and am very good at documenting processes, communicating technical stuff, etc.

Wondering what you guys think of doing a collaborative "group design" of an alternator available for our own community?

Of course, we would share the design/build process, plans, materials, and all of that. Or, depending on the final result and the complexity, we could make them available ready built in essentially a non-profit setting.

Is this of interest to anyone?  Please share any thoughts or comments!

Thanks,

Darren

[ghurd]

I do not mean to sound negative... But, Many people have proposed it before.

I could use an efficient 32"~40" diameter turbine.
Others would like to get started with 48".
Naturally the next step is 7' class.
10' is fairly common now, and 12' is not rare.
What size do you propose?

Is it just for us USA based people, or will they be shipped to UK, AU, South Africa, Mauritius...?  Be a pitty to leave Damon and Ross out of it.
Or is it not USA based, and leaves me out?

Seems anyone capable of making a reasonable tower to support it can make a The Dans or Hugh type without much trouble.

And the cost.
I can get a 400W alternator nearly ready to use for $175 any day of the week, less with great patience.  A day of 'snip&solder' operating and a few bridges has it ready to go.

In another way, it sort of sounds like what The Dans are offering now?
http://69.175.14.181/catalog/index.php?cPath=22_30

As far as a group design, pretty sure that is how the current axial designs came about.  And the radial desins too, though Zubbly pretty much led us by the nose.

I think you will find it a very time consuming and frustrating project.
G-

[DIYDarren]

Hi,

Well, I appreciate the input, and perhaps I just don't understand the dynamics of the forum, and the type of people who are interested in the windmill projects, and the balance of power between the DIY community and the people with commercial interests who support that community. Not to mention the wide variations of alternators needed to meet the various windpower projects.

To me, yes, a lot of this lends itself to DIY, but on the other hand some elements such as the alternator itself doesn't necessarily fall within the realm of the average fabricator/metalworker/woodworker. Both from a knowledge and a precision fabrication standpoint. Not to mention a comfort standpoint. I don't necessarily think that someone who is good at building towers is necessarily good at designing and building their own electromagnetic device from scratch.

As an outsider, it seems like there are all kinds of people interested in trying out a windpower project, but probably end up being dissuaded either due to unavailability of the practical power generation side of it, or to being priced out of the market. I mean, no offense, but $1000 price range for an alternator would price it out of the market for all but the most serious off-the-grid person who NEEDS power. I understand that there are certain costs for the copper and magnets involved, but at the same time, seems like there could be some good, solid comprimises possible out there??

I come from the DIY community of building your own loudspeakers. In that community, the collaboration and camaraderie is amazing. I guess I don't see that so much here, but maybe it is a sheer numbers thing, and there's not enough people into this to support the community.

I just thought that the group design/build project is something that could pull people together and unify them a bit. I wasn't really thinking about this being a commercial product, more of a set of standards for an easily reproducible design. As such, it wouldn't just be a US or UK thing, it would be available to anyone who cares to read and participate.

I suppose maybe it is a bit of a conflict of interest with the supporters of this board, in which case maybe this isn't the right place for it.

On the other hand... Maybe the only practical solution is some of the modified/salvaged items out there, or truly custom builds every time, and that's the end of the story.

I appreciate the thoughts and feedback, that's what I'm interested in hearing right now!

Take care,

Darren




 

[ghurd]

I mean, no offense, but $1000 price range for an alternator would price it out of the market for all but the most serious off-the-grid person who NEEDS power.

If the $1000 makes it too expensive, then they can not afford the rest of it.  Even if the alternator was free.

Maybe some of the guys with 7' class and 10' class turbines can throw some real numbers out...
What do you guys have in your completed tower?
Battery bank?
Inverter?
Charge controller and dump load?
Wire run, lightning protection, fusing...?


I don't think the dynamics are very complicated.  You asked for thoughts, and I gave you mine from my personal experiences (based on other people's attempts via email correspondence). 
There are sure to be other people with different ideas.
G-

[clockmanFRA]

Hi diydarren,

Here in UK and in France, (my turbines are at my French House), I recently did a cost breakdown of producing a 3.7m diameter (12ft) wind turbine. (i have 3)

The design is Hugh Piggotts from his book "A Wind Turbine Recipe Book" this guy released all his 30 years of experience into this book and that is highly unusual in this day and age.
As an engineer myself and after looking at other designs, Hugh's is simple, good blade design, very efficient and very robust. (I am not related and never met the chap).

1. At second hand price, eBay etc.  ..To produce his design, the mechanics , blades, resins etc, £749, ..10m tower etc £693,... basic essentials for electricity controll £696,... storage batteries and inverter plus 100m underground cables £500. giving a total of £2638....

2.  Lowest costs, ie from shops....£1282.....£896.... £1511.....£1200 ... giving a total costs of £4889.

3.  Lowest costs plus labour, (£8 per hour), gives a total of £8153.

Sure, there are probably many savings to make by really shopping around, but please remember you are creating a stand alone Power Station.
Hugh and Dan B both do courses for groups of folk,  and i don't think there is many places left on this planet where Hugh has not taught.
Good luck.

[TomW]

Well over 5 grand in just the inverter and batteries. 2500 watt inverter and about 1250 AH of storage. Not offgrid but probably could survive easily on it if need be.

Parts cost alone on the 12 footer I have was about a grand a year ago.

Just some real world values.

This is hobby and "in case" stuff here which changes the perceived payback over time compared to an off grid and must have it scenario.

Frankly, most of our users are your basic cheap skate tightwad. No offence intended, folks but you know it to be true.

Tom

[Scott]

Frankly, most of our users are your basic cheap skate tightwad. No offence intended, folks but you know it to be true.

Tom

I resemble that remark! 

[Rover]

I personally don't believe the following is true

"From the reading and studying of this Alt Energy community so far, it appears that there is a gap in the availability of suitable Alternators for use in the small windpower DIY community. Is this true?"

There are plenty available, there will be more when GHurd release's his stash .

 But really there are plenty available, part of what this board is good for is showing you what to look for, where to use it, and if you don't want to look for it, how to build it. I don't think its here because stuff isn't available. Fast search on EBay/Google will get you tons of alternators, parts etc.  There are varying degrees to DIY, and the board pretty much covers them all.

Another side of the board is to attempt , with as much grace as possible, to inform those that can read, when  a wind turbine is a suitable choice (or any other RE source for that matter). For instance , simply wanting a turbine is not a good way to make a decision on getting one, unless you're slightly damaged like me, and do this as a hobby.

If you do the reading here before making a decision on a specific  RE, you are better informed.

The again if someone is looking to get into it without doing the reading, here or elsewhere, then maybe they shouldn't get into it.




 

[wpowokal]

The facility already exists, it's called a Diary, you start the topic putting up your specific ideas, and you are going to need something for that or at least a set of paramiters then others will reply to your diary and then you have a group design happening.

Group build is a bit more tricky because of the tyriny of distance, but then some people already get together, hell I have even done it myself.

Darren there is nothing wrong with your idea just flesh it out in a Diary, you must have some ideas to have reached the conclusion that current designs are inappropriate, I look forward to your ideas.

Allan

[Rover]

I agree with wpowokal ,

"Darren there is nothing wrong with your idea just flesh it out in a Diary, you must have some ideas to have reached the conclusion that current designs are inappropriate, I look forward to your ideas."

I concur..

diydarren,

This is basically how it works around here.. and I do want to hear your ideas...now if you are just asking to use the time, effort, and ideas of the board members... to promote a commercial goal....no one can answer for them. As far as creating  a collective think tank on the subject... check out the number of members here, I'm pretty sure its close to equating one.

Don't be upset by the attitude, working on Devii's advocate here. You have not contributed a great deal in the field here, yet you are asking others to put forth some of their knowledge. You have made assumptions that to a lot of us, show you really don't get it.

That being said, I would want to hear a lot more of the idea without the generalities. Show you actually know.... and are not just making assumptions.

[don1]

Hi Darren.
  First I want you to know that anything I may say is not meant to burn you or anyone else.  I am not a master of the keyboard.   So,  I think if you were to read some more you may find that what you are proposing is already here.  I believe there is no greater accumulation of information  and advice and experiences available in the world for free than  what is right here.  There are people from all walks of life and from all around the world that contribute here.  I think there are people that through there generosity will answear any valid question you may have.
 I think your enthusiasm  can be an asset to this comunity.  One way to contribute is to follow along with the post and threads here and get a feel for what the mission of this site is about.  Then when you have something that may help with a persons questions or problem jump up on that old soap box and contribute.

  May you always have enough,   Don.

[bob g]

my take, for what it is worth

anything diy in nature comes down to a certain amount of artistic or personal input
add to that the various needs and wants, add also the variable nature of budget's...

and whether anyone wants to admit it, there is a certain religiosity to diy based alternative
energy.

too many variable's to ever get a group to agree to anything other than perhaps a small scale/beginner mill.

the aircore and the motor conversions came about over quite some time, with much argument and many folks had to be drug kicking and screaming to either of the designs.

they were not accepted overnight, and i cannot imagine either being born of a group effort.

it takes a forward thinking individual to step up with a design, prove it, and then promote it to a larger group.

i belong to a couple other forums and from experience even the most simple of concepts often take weeks if not months, 100's of posts, hours of discussion, deliberate argument, followed by mucho research, and then more discussion.

if it were me and i wanted to promote this idea, i would just go ahead and do the deed, then bring it forward, argue its merits and then work out a kit for sale or similar. once you have a proven concept/prototype then it is much easier to gain support of others rather than just getting bogged down in discussion.

some things just don't come to fruition by a group think tank, unless there is a central controlling character to lead the project,, something that just isn't going to happen within
a group of diy'er/typeA guys when their job doesn't depend on cooperation to start with.

ymmv
bob g

[TomW]

my take, for what it is worth

anything diy in nature comes down to a certain amount of artistic or personal input
add to that the various needs and wants, add also the variable nature of budget's...

and whether anyone wants to admit it, there is a certain religiosity to diy based alternative
energy.

too many variable's to ever get a group to agree to anything other than perhaps a small scale/beginner mill.

the aircore and the motor conversions came about over quite some time, with much argument and many folks had to be drug kicking and screaming to either of the designs.

they were not accepted overnight, and i cannot imagine either being born of a group effort.

it takes a forward thinking individual to step up with a design, prove it, and then promote it to a larger group.

i belong to a couple other forums and from experience even the most simple of concepts often take weeks if not months, 100's of posts, hours of discussion, deliberate argument, followed by mucho research, and then more discussion.

if it were me and i wanted to promote this idea, i would just go ahead and do the deed, then bring it forward, argue its merits and then work out a kit for sale or similar. once you have a proven concept/prototype then it is much easier to gain support of others rather than just getting bogged down in discussion.

some things just don't come to fruition by a group think tank, unless there is a central controlling character to lead the project,, something that just isn't going to happen within
a group of diy'er/typeA guys when their job doesn't depend on cooperation to start with.

ymmv
bob g

bob;

Well said.

I would add that you probably could not get this group to all agree water is wet and the sky is dark at night.

Tom

[wpowokal]

Tom water is only wet if one has not sprayed with a water repellent, and here we have many clear moonlight night, further water does not conduct electricity.

allan on the move

[Rover]

Ahh but... if I wear shades at night even a moonlit night appears dark, so if it appears to be dark is it not dark?

[fabricator]

Darren, do a google search on "Cat herding" click the first video, you'll get some idea what this group of DIYers is like.

[DamonHD]

"Cat herding" is on a good day: I won't even think about system nominal voltage (anything over 0.001V may harm children if swallowed; known to cause multimeters to move in California; not approved by NICE for NHS use rectally in the UK, etc, etc).

Rgds

Damon

[Tritium]

There IS always trouble when "multimeters move in California". 

Thurmond

[TrackerJack]

May I suggest that before we start our first project, we get some t shirts and bumperstickers...

[fabricator]

As long as they're not green, and no words pictures or symbols either, otherwise I'm in.

[TomW]

May I suggest that before we start our first project, we get some t shirts and bumperstickers...

Nah. T?he proper thing to do is form the LLC then assemble a board of directors and officers of the corporate entity. By the time you do all that reality will set in.

Or not.

Tom

[fabricator]

I've already got an LLC, you guys just send me a bunch of money and I'll get things rollin, I think we should buy a good sturdy hydraulic tilt up monopole for a test tower for when we get a prototype built, as soon as we get enough funds I'll get one ordered.

[Rover]

Wouldn't be taling about the ARE type would we.. hmmm?

Has to make it past the board of directors.

[fabricator]

Well, I'd do the due diligence of course, the board of this LLC has only one director.

[bob g]

you see!

we can't even agree on the details in a joke!

lmao

seriously though, in my opinion the reasons why a group focused project is so difficult
are the same reasons why so many good and disparate idea's come forth.

if we could all work together like little ants, is doubtful we could have gotten past a toy pinwheel, once you start down a group think process it seems innovation becomes stifled.

its too bad though that such a project couldn't be done, it might be kind of cool

bob g

[adaml]

Not sure there is much fun in mass production - dependant on the interpretation.  Loses the innovation that drives progress.
Isn't this what China is doing?

Damon - not sure the NHS is allowed to do anything anymore, I'll probe no further.

[wdyasq]

There IS always trouble when "multimeters move in California". 

Thurmond

Excuse me but .... If you don't have a permit for that multimeter I'm afraid you will need to be turned in to the authorities.

Ron

[ghurd]

I still think many projects are 'group projects'.
There are 100s of examples.
Remember when The Dans only used 1x2x1/2" neos?  A bit of bouncing ideas around and now they often (usually?) use round neos.

Motion to take a vote to see if the majority believe this proposal should be voted on.   
G-

[TomW]

I second.

Tom

[DIYDarren]

OK, well, you guys sure showed me. I now see that this community, or at least this particular board, is for the experts who know what they're doing and have it all figured out.

Me, I know that I in no way meet that criteria-- I'm just a tinkerer with no application for an actual windmill, but with the interest, shop, engineering skills, and willingness to help people with the design, plans, and fabrication of a part that they may otherwise not be able to build themselves.

Maybe somewhere else I'll find some people that might find this kind of collaboration of value.

Regards,

Darren
 

[keithturtle]

Oh my, Darren, I'm afraid you've missed the point.   The elements of design, collective or not, hinge upon the reality of the physics involved and the materials we have to work with, not upon the opinions of men.  It is an unavoidable fact that the previous posts were made by those that have been there, are in the middle of the process, and those who have had these realities hit them squarely in the face.   Maybe it's those scars that help to color the response.

They've tried to help you see that reality; spending time with someone who agrees more closely with your point of view will not change the nature of wind power, but it will set you back for lost time, albeit whilst helping you to gain perspective.

Its your time, Darren, spend it as you wish

Turtle, still at it

[ghurd]

I do not believe you know what we are saying.

If you know WHAT you want to build, you will get plenty of help.

But like TomW said, getting people to agree is impossible.

#1  OK.  So you want to build an alternator.  Small and cost effective.
To me, that means 4' and 12V.
Someone will mention 4' is just a toy.
Someone will mention 7' will not cost a whole lot more, and be a better value in $/W.
Someone will mention that once it gets to 7', may as well make it a better system and go 24V.
Someone will mention it costs about the same to go 48V.
Someone will mention if it is 48V, may as well make it a 10', because that is a better value.
Someone will mention if it is 48V 10', may as well wind it for high voltage, and use a Classic controller, because that is a better value.


#2  OK.  So you want to build an alternator.  Small and cost effective.
To me, that means an induction conversion, because can get the whole thing (bearings, shaft, copper, etc) for cheap.
Someone will mention a good shop will not have issues whipping up an air core dual rotor, and the air core will be more efficient especially if it is small, especially in low winds, so the extra cost is worth while.
Which takes it back to #1.

Everybody is correct.  None of that thinking is incorrect.
The problem is there are no parameters to meet, because almost everyone is looking at it from their own perspective.


Believe me, I know what you are saying.
Gosh, I just had a friend (from this board) make and ship an "adapter" for a garden windmill so it could be used with an alternator.  That's pretty sad, but the fact is I could not make it myself.  And I can make an induction motor into a functional alternator in an hour or 2.
G-

[Menelaos]

There is no Solution for everybody, thats right, but there are solutions that cover a wider range of prop diameter and still leaves some space for configurations...
On our german bord, we have introduced a small webshop with useful stuff often needed and literature on small wind turbines. For a coupple of month now, we also offer Alternator kits. There are 3 versions.

1. to play with...a small set for less that 50 Bucks to try out things, you probably know that one ;-)
2. a small axial flux alternator with all the parts needen, invluding wire, resin, laser cut galvanised parts, bearing....
    That one is capable to go from 1.5 to about 3m Diameter. It costs 300,-
3. Another a lot bigger alternator kit for machines of about 3.5 to 5 m in diameter which is availlabele with differnet versions of magnets. Price is 1200,-
Soon there will be number 4, an alternator for vertical axis turbines without stator bracket, so the stator is mounted inside. Price 1400,- for the 4 KW unit and about 400 for the 1 KW unit that will come uo as well...

With those 4 kits, you can cover almost every need. In addition we offer different wire diameters and calculate number of windings for people that wish to get an 12,24,28 oder on grid system.

Here are some pictures and links to get an idea:


Number 1     http://www.kleinwindanlagen.de/Shop/index.php?cat=c20_Bausatz-01-Generator-Lehr-Bausatz.html
Number 2     http://www.kleinwindanlagen.de/Shop/product_info.php?info=p98_bausatz-02---scheibengenerator.html
                   http://www.kleinwindanlagen.de/Forum/cf3/upload/avatars/utool_f_1279410490_711.jpg
                   http://www.kleinwindanlagen.de/Forum/cf3/upload/avatars/utool_f_1279411009_711.jpg
                   http://www.kleinwindanlagen.de/Forum/cf3/upload/avatars/utool_f_1279411178_711.jpg

Number 3     http://www.kleinwindanlagen.de/Forum/cf3/upload/avatars/utool_f_1297773018_711.jpg
                   http://www.kleinwindanlagen.de/Forum/cf3/upload/avatars/utool_f_1297773576_711.jpg
                   http://www.kleinwindanlagen.de/Shop/product_info.php?info=p117_bausatz-03---3-4kw-scheibengenerator.html



and finaly the one for verticals that is to come up soon:

http://www.kleinwindanlagen.de/Forum/cf3/topic.php?t=3302


So right now, this is how it looks in my workshop :-D

http://www.kleinwindanlagen.de/Forum/cf3/upload/avatars/utool_f_1305402866_711.jpg

Greez
Max