Author Topic: Damping an analog amp-meter  (Read 14037 times)

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Simen

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Damping an analog amp-meter
« on: May 26, 2011, 04:12:47 PM »
I've just ripped out an old analog amp-meter from a grid-charger and put it on some spare LiMnCo batteries i have here, to create a small portable battery (14.8V, 16Ah).

It works nicely; i'm actually running the laptop from it now, via an dc-dc converter, but the converter/laptop draws alternate 1A to 1.7A rather rapidly, making the needle on the amp-meter bounce around... :(

Is there any way to dampen the needle? I've tried with a capacitor across the meter (a 100uF and a 1000uF) without any noticeable effect...
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

TomW

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2011, 05:45:59 PM »
A weak magnet over the needle path?

Seen this used in other applications to damp movement of a metal part.

Might be a bit of clever electrickery to do it too just not one I can think of offhand.

Tom

dnix71

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 05:46:28 PM »
To choke current you need an inductor in series. One with an iron core. The inductor will store and dump the current changes in it's field and dampen them.

taylorp035

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2011, 06:11:09 PM »
Either a ginormous inductor or capacitor should work.  A reasonably sized one might work too ;D

RP

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011, 06:12:45 PM »
The problem with a choke in series is it will also damp the actual current meaning a voltage drop at the load when the current rises quickly.  In other words, you'll get a slump in voltage at the computer when the current tries to kick up.

I think if you could get past the shunt on the meter with your capacitor you could damp it much better.

Many of those older amp meters have the shunt bolted across the terminals on the back.  Does yours?

taylorp035

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011, 06:14:17 PM »
Now that I think about it, when I powered my laptop, the current would jump up and down too.  I attribute it mostly to the computer, but I may be wrong.

rossw

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 07:54:33 PM »
I've just ripped out an old analog amp-meter

1A to 1.7A rather rapidly, making the needle on the amp-meter bounce around... :(

Is there any way to dampen the needle? I've tried with a capacitor across the meter (a 100uF and a 1000uF) without any noticeable effect...

Because it's an ammeter, it (and it's shunt) will have a very low resistance - meaning you will need an impractically large capacitor to have any effect whatsoever - very likely in the *farads* range.

*IF* you can seperate the shunt from the movement, and if the meter is reasonably sensitive, you can put a modest resistance in series with the movement itself, and a capacitor across the movement - the resistor will stop the cap being dead-shorted across the shunt. You will lose some accuracy but it might work well enough for your purposes.

The "right" way to do it is much more complex, and also requires seperating the meter from the shunt, and using an opamp as an integrator. (Google opamp integrator for details, but basically it's an opamp with a paralleled resistor+capacitor in the negative feedback loop).

JW

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2011, 08:08:05 PM »
Me on the otherhand, "I would just use an oscillscope" to figure out the needed values...

I have a Fluke 123 Scopemeter with the IR data-port. Something broke and it wasnt able to hold a "trace", I sent it out for repair and it took over 2 months to get the back ordered parts(chip) but the guy had my meter fixed for only a couple hundered bucks.

Ross,

Checkout this link, you advised me on how to find the microprocesser that Im working with (micro-controller) thanks for this information....

http://www.woodward.com/pdf/ic/36710.pdf

Best and no hard feelings, I think I have most of it out of my system...

Cheer's

JW

Flux

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2011, 01:15:12 AM »
Probably on a practical basis you can't do it. You don't say what type of ammeter it is but normally moving coil movements fed from a shunt are fairly well damped.

This is more likely a moving iron or moving magnet movement ( for cheapness) and these have little inherent damping. Your cyclic load is exciting the movement natural resonance.

If it is moving coil and fed from a shunt you could devise a circuit with damping to go between the shunt and meter but it will be complicated and not worth the bother. If moving iron/moving magnet then no you can't do anything useful.

Flux

Simen

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2011, 02:12:38 AM »
Thanks all for answers. :)

Yes, it's a moving iron/magnet (no shunt), and its only intended purpose in life was to show a steady charge to a battery.

It would have been nice to have a more precise needle, but since the price was right (free)... ;) (I grabbed it on impulse from an old charger in the junkyard yesterday... ;) ) It does shows me approximate Amp usage for the load, and that's better than nothing. :)
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

Bruce S

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2011, 09:54:00 AM »
Simen;
 Since it was a free meter :), you could rebuild the needle swing and face to a lower amp reading so the needle could stop swinging so wildly.
There's been a post or two on how to do this. NOT really that hard, getting the known shunt and deciding the amp swing.
Just a thought.
ME? I'd leave it alone like it is.
Cheers;
Bruce S
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Rover

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2011, 05:48:52 PM »
OK Simen,

It's supposed to bounce around based on your load, kinda fact of life (er load?) . Yeah its hard to understand with all the swaying about. How does it react with a "fairly" constant load... say a dc light bulb?

If your looking for accurate numbers on draw, and can't watch the swaying needle. You basically need a data logger that shows A/hr or W/hr measurement .. basically smoothing out all the peaks and valleys.

Unless the meter is really bad or has such a low range (see what Bruce said) , really think about something that does some real measurements but gives you a value over time.

There are quite a few out there.. Doc Wattson/Watts Up ... Turnegy , etc...

If you really get into it ... some microcontroller ...

Yeah I know what you got is free, but damping it just makes it less accurate.

Depends on what you want to do


 
Rover
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Madscientist267

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2011, 07:26:20 PM »
Don't try to dampen it electronically!

The laptop is drawing current as it needs it, and trying to dampen it (with a choke for example) will only stress other components in the train; IF it is even successful.

With dancing currents from transient type loads such as laptops, you're best off averaging it 'in your mind'. Sadly enough, that's really the best way, unless you have a means of averaging it mathematically (which aint gonna happen with an analog meter).

I run up against the same problem, only in the digital realm. Unfortunately, I just have to deal with it. It's a REAL PITA with digital meters because the numbers change just fast enough to drive you nuts!

If you're going to attempt ANY kind of smoothing, use a VERY large capacitor after the meter, as the last thing the inverter (or laptop) sees. Put any choking or ballast BEFORE the capacitor. It still might not help.

Either way, limiting current is an evil of smoothing it out. And computers don't tolerate flaky power well.

My advice to be blunt? Don't do it at all.

Laptops can draw anything from 50% to 200% of their "rated" current on the label. All depends on CPU load, hard drive access, screen activity (white vs black believe it or not even on an LCD panel causes significant variations in power requirements), whether or not the internal battery is charging, and so on.

Seen WAY too many PC power supplies come in fried thanks to even just running from a generator (hurricanes are common around here). Every year it's the same thing. Hurricane comes, followed by bad power supplies. If they don't like the relative 'cleanliness' of an ICE driven generator, imagine how they will react to the variations the current limiting will cause. With a laptop powered by an inverter through it's brick, damage is a little less likely, but chances are, you'll piss the inverter off, and cause it to trip out constantly, leading to more variations when the laptop ends up on it's own battery and then decides it needs to charge.

I think I've made my point.  ;)

Steve

EDIT -

What you CAN do, is use a buffer with a shunt, and average the signal coming out of the buffer to drive a meter movement. Chances are though, the movement you have won't work that way since most battery charger meters are made with a heavy coil of wire (repulsion type), and don't respond to small, low current signals. There isn't a 'shunt' in the traditional sense in there. You'd have to get a d'arsonval movement type and calibrate the scale yourself instead to go this route.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 07:36:29 PM by Madscientist267 »
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joestue

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2011, 07:59:37 PM »
i can't see why you'd even want to.

if you want to electrically dampen it, you will have to recalibrate it.
(large capacitor across the meter, connect a resistor in series, then hook that back up to the shunt)
a cap across the shunt would work.. if its one of those 10 farad 2 volt super caps.
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Simen

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2011, 02:47:21 AM »
Now, as i said, there's no shunt on/inside the meter. There are just a 2mm magnet wire with - i'm guessing 10-20 turns, and the needle have a magnet on it's back end (i haven't verified this by opening it, but it looks like it. ;) ) The scale ranges from 0A to 6A, with some compression towards the end.

Regarding the needle behavior...
The needle are steady with a steady current draw. If current draw changes from 1A to 2A for example, the needle swings between 1.5A and 2.5A for a second before settling at 2A.
It's when the draw changes rapidly between 2 currents continously the needle won't settle.

If it was a simple fix that didn't change the precision, i'd do that, but i think i leave it alone; it does give me an idea of the current draw for the connected load, and thus the life of the battery before a recharge are needed... :)

I do have some digital panel meters here, and some nice PicAxe's, so i am really not suffering too much... ;D (Besides, any more advanced meters on this small pack would beat the simplicity of it, and the fun part of building something useable in 10 minutes... ;D )

Edit:
To make it clear; the meter are constructed much like the same way the diy meter @ the Otherpower site: http://otherpower.com/otherpower_experiments_ammeter.html :)
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 02:59:00 AM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

joestue

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2011, 09:09:05 AM »
try slowing it down with an eddy current brake.
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TomW

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2011, 09:33:49 AM »
try slowing it down with an eddy current brake.
A weak magnet over the needle path?

Seen this used in other applications to damp movement of a metal part.

Might be a bit of clever electrickery to do it too just not one I can think of offhand.

Tom

That was the very first reply. Just different wording.

Tom

Simen

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2011, 05:03:28 PM »
Wouldn't that require a magnet with an even fluxpattern over the whole of the scale to get an even result? What if the needle are made of aluminium?! Or plastic, which i suspect it is?! ::)

Here are the ampmeter in its new environment. ;)


It's 16pc 3.7V, 4Ah LiMnPO4 cells, 4p-4s with a cigarette lighter socket at the top. Those 16 cells (out of 40!) are those who survived beneath 4-6 feet of snow for around 4 months, and then over 1 year of storage, without doing anything with them... ;D

I was about to order a PCM for the pack from Batteryspace, but just before i was to press 'send order', i saw that UPS wanted over $80 to ship a lightweight pcb card from the US to Norway!  :o So i canceled...  :( I've ordered other, heavier stuff 2 times from the US the last two months, and neither of the times was i charged more than $42 from UPS... (And - the shipping time was mere 2 days to Norway... Impressive, and well worth $42, but NOT $80. :( ) O well; i ramble... So - for now, i charge the cells manually with a precise lab power supply, and balance the cells manually when needed...

Anyone know of other places to buy good PCM/CMS, where they wont try to rob you with shipping prices? :)
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

ghurd

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2011, 01:58:01 AM »
"where they wont try to rob you with shipping prices?"
Find someone who will ship USPS!  Something like a PCB card would cost $14 or less.
Gosh, I can ship a 12 pound (5.5kg) ECM motor, and more, to Norway for $46.

UPS international is expensive, partly because of the paperwork they do, and partly because it is slightly faster (sometimes).
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Flux

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2011, 02:09:51 AM »
Meter damping for moving iron and moving magnets is not normally applied for cheap ones. The expensive ones have air dashpot dampers and they are not that effective. It is very difficult to apply any form of eddy current damper to a moving iron movement and near impossible with moving magnet. The field of any magnet near by just behaves in the same way as the current through the coil and causes a deflection.

It could in theory be done but as I said previously it's not practical. the damping mechanisms on meters are so precisely engineered that they are difficult to repair if damaged. The work required to build a remote damper is just beyond common sense.

Your best idea is to live with it as it seems to do the job, otherwise it's a new and more expensive meter.


Simen

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2011, 02:40:59 AM »
I'm living with it... ;D

Besides, i DO have an air-dampened Amp meter, but it's slightly larger:
http://fieldlines.com/board/index.php/topic,142678.0.html

;D
(There are links to large pictures of it in the first post...)
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

Simen

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2011, 12:44:45 PM »
A small update... :)

I pieced together a small battery monitor consisting of a PicAxe 08M and 3 leds (Green, Yellow, Red), and programmed it to indicate the voltage from below 11V (2.75V/Cell) to above 17V (4.25V/Cell). (This pack are considered full at 16.8V, and empty at 11V.)
With 3 leds, one have 5 logical combinations; green, green/yellow, Yellow, Yellow/red and red, which indicates 16-17V,  15-16V, 14-15V, 13-14V and 12-13V, which are a nice indication of battery status in 20% steps. :)

To expand this, i flash the green led if the voltage are above 17V, and i flash the red led slowly to indicate voltage between 11V and 12V, and a rapidly flashing red led indicates that the voltage are below 11V. (2.75V/Cell, which are bad for LiIon cells.)

I thought of using only 2 leds for voltage indication, and using a mosfet for LVD, but since i'm the only person using this pack, i like visual monitoring better... ;)

Oh, and i made the leds flash and run back and forth at startup - just for fun, and because i had enough memory space to do it... ;D (There's a new 08M2 available now, with much more memory (8x), timeslicing, higher speed (8x), etc, etc...)

Just another example where an PicAxe are both fun and useful... ;)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 02:45:18 PM by Simen »
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)

Madscientist267

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2011, 02:52:11 PM »
All you new age whipper snappers and yer high tech doohickies and thingamabobs...

BTW - That meter (the antique) is [censored] HUGE dude! What is that, 8, maybe 10 inches in diameter? LOL

Steve
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How much magic smoke it contains does !

Simen

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Re: Damping an analog amp-meter
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2011, 05:01:33 PM »
'ts gotta be a flashy thingy, else it ain't worth it... ;D

The old Amp meter are around 7 inches.... It comes from an old railway station. :)
I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. - (R. A. Heinlein)