Author Topic: connect different types of batteries  (Read 11356 times)

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XOKE

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connect different types of batteries
« on: July 22, 2011, 05:06:58 PM »
Hi guys.
I have in my bank 7 SLA batteries, all with 63 Ah 12v, a total of 12v 441Ah.
Probably I can get 9 SLA batteries 12v 7 Ah a total of 63Ah, used and in good condition.
can I connect the (12v 7Ah = »63 Ah) with the others 63Ah?

3595-0



I charge the batteries at 14.4 volts, the 7Ah can also be charged with the same 14.4 volts?
If it is not harmful to the system?


thanks

Xoke
« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 05:11:03 PM by XOKE »

XOKE

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2011, 07:10:36 AM »
Hi guys

After some research I found several answers and one of them is this link

http://www3.sympatico.ca/alduncan/ham/Gel_Cell_Batteries.pdf

Once the system has cycles of charge and discharge, I think it can be done.

 xoke

ghurd

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2011, 12:09:33 PM »
There is no reason there has to be 9 (63AH) of the 7AH batteries.
Could add 1 or 2 small batteries if you want.
G-
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XOKE

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2011, 04:48:19 PM »
Hi Mr. GHurd

Ok I have wrong idea that we only should connect batteries with the same size (Ah). :-[

Thanks

 Xoke

ghurd

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2011, 05:02:58 PM »
It is a common belief, but incorrect.

In fact, it could be looked at from the other way.
You have a perfectly matched bank of Nine 7AH batteries, and you want to hang a 63AH in parallel with them, then another 63AH too?

Best I can figure is somebody long ago said the small ones would 'go dead first'.  Wrong.
Any arguement they have to be the same AH ignores 'KVL'.
G-
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XOKE

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2011, 05:44:06 PM »
Ok Mr G.

So, I can do like this?

3607-0

or one of the two ways  it´s more efficient?

Xoke

ghurd

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2011, 05:48:01 PM »
Of the choices posted so far, the 1st one posted is better.

The best would be the 1st sketch, but the Positive connecting to about the 3rd 7AH down, and the Negative connecting to about the 3rd 7AH from the bottom.
G-
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XOKE

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2011, 06:03:29 PM »
Ok Mr G.

Now it is realized, just need to get the batteries and test them, maybe this week can arrange them in a friend´s scrap.

3608-0

Regards

XOKE

ghurd

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2011, 06:04:39 PM »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

XOKE

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2011, 06:20:48 PM »
I´m really a rookie

the scheme below its how i have then connect, for your experience I believe its better the one at the top?

3610-0

I hope can  live until to 80 years old to learn more ;D

Xoke

Watt

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2011, 08:40:08 PM »
I believe the bottom example would be best as wire resistance in that chain would equal a better charging rate per individual cell/battery. 

XOKE

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2011, 04:25:58 PM »
hi
I did some research on the web and found that the schemes are always the same.
these are the usual





Thank you all
xoke

ghurd

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2011, 05:46:41 PM »
With many parallel batteries, do it like my sketch.
G-
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XOKE

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2011, 06:05:58 PM »
Hi Mr. G.

I have checked this:

http://www.solarseller.com/readypower_emergency_and_standby_power__trace_drop_shipped_prices.htm

When wiring more than three batteries in parallel or when wiring
more than three series strings in parallel it is recommended that
they have a common positive and a common negative wiring
point.

This will allow all of the individual batteries to be charged and
dis-charged the same.
If your battery bank goes out of balance, meaning that there is a
large difference in voltage and state-of-charge of each battery,
the working capacity and life-span of the battery bank can be reduced.




I believe this is what you mean

Xoke

mettleramiel

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2011, 06:11:46 PM »
Personal, I wouldn't do it. I replace those 7ah batteries all the time and it doesn't seem to matter what brand they are or how they are treated, they don't usually last more than 2 years. 3 is not too uncommon, but once we get to 4, they are always useless. I wouldn't bring down your much bigger batteries with these old clunkers and they will. That's another issue I've always found with SLA, they will bring each other down fast, I'm talking one battery may have a 30% or so capacity, it will bring down a new battery to the same level within 3 months. Trust me, man, whatever you get the 7ah batteries for, it's not worth it

XOKE

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2011, 06:48:08 PM »
Personal, I wouldn't do it. I replace those 7ah batteries all the time and it doesn't seem to matter what brand they are or how they are treated, they don't usually last more than 2 years. 3 is not too uncommon, but once we get to 4, they are always useless. I wouldn't bring down your much bigger batteries with these old clunkers and they will. That's another issue I've always found with SLA, they will bring each other down fast, I'm talking one battery may have a 30% or so capacity, it will bring down a new battery to the same level within 3 months. Trust me, man, whatever you get the 7ah batteries for, it's not worth it

Is correct.
Even if I can get the batteries (12v 7Ah) for free is preferable to build a battery bank apart,
So there's no discharge of large to smaller ones.
and can use their power, even not for long time

Xoke

ghurd

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2011, 07:57:53 PM »
I used to think what Watt said, but it is incorrect.
Amanda explained it to me 10 times before it sunk into my thick skull.
The way shown in my sketch is better.

The most recent sketch above (common Pos and Neg points) is best, but the wires on each pole have to be the same length (being picky).
Try to find and pay for a suitable 12 pole device to connect all those wires, and you will use what I posted instead.  ;)

My 2 cents about old 7AH batteries-
I use 7AH that are more than 5 years old all the time.  1 in the livingroom LED lamp and 2 on the coffee table, right now.  :o
Next time someone changes out a bunch of 2 year old 7AH SLAs, save the good ones.

IMHO, the problem is the charging (float) voltages are too high in most items (UPS, cash registers, emergency lighting, etc).

Usually I charge mine with a VW panel set to about 13.75V.  That a few hours a day at 13.75V.  No problem.  Usually have one on there, and there is one on there right now that's been on it for a week.
With grid chargers, maybe 8 to 12 hours at about 13.9V.

If I was going to have a 24/7/365 float charger on an SLA, mine would be set to something like 13.45V.  Maybe less.
But solar and wind is not 24/7/365.

Why are UPS set higher than I think they should be?  Surely the UPS company knows what I think I know?
The answers are "Why are small used UPS free?"  and  "Why is it cheaper to change the UPS than the battery?"
The UPS company sells a new UPS unit every time the battery goes bad, or preventative maintenance (before the battery goes bad).

My pride and joy >10 year old 7AH got damaged last fall when I forgot and left it on a (automatic $5 HF special, which is really just a wall wart and LED) mini grid charger for a few days.
Still works, but the capacity is a lot lower than it was 2 weeks earlier.
G-
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XOKE

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2011, 06:36:11 AM »
Ok I have decided  :)

 â€œThe most recent sketch above (common Pos and Neg points) is best, but the wires on each pole have to be the same length (being picky).
Try to find and pay for a suitable 12 pole device to connect all those wires, and you will use what I posted instead.”

About the charge voltage I intend to use my GHurd controller and same dump load, set then to 14,4volts, just like others big SLA batteries.
Soon I finish my new 8 foot generator; I'll put some more resistors on my dump load,
To GHurd:
Do you think I can put 1200Watts of resistors for your controller?
Or it's better to do 2 battery bank, 2 charge controllers and 2 dump load one for each wind generator?
Or it´s just a waste of money, and connect all to the same group?

Thanks

Xoke

ghurd

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2011, 09:27:25 AM »

Do you think I can put 1200Watts of resistors for your controller?

Or it's better to do 2 battery bank, 2 charge controllers and 2 dump load one for each wind generator?
Or it´s just a waste of money, and connect all to the same group?


Yes, can connect a lot of power resistors, but it takes a lot of additional power mosfets.

Usually, one larger battery bank is better than 2 smaller battery banks.
G-
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XOKE

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2011, 09:55:51 AM »
Ok.

I have much more power resistors (2, 4 ohm - 6 amps at 14, 4 volts) that I made from a piece of ceramic tube and Nyquil wire, a lot of heat sink from dead computer power supply, i just need to buy some IRFZ44N to finish that.

Regards

xoke

Madscientist267

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Re: connect different types of batteries
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2011, 12:44:22 AM »
Just going to chime in here to reinforce what ghurd said about the charging voltages being the biggest factor in the lifespan of an SLA.

I used to let them 'cook' at a higher voltage too until I found out what the skimpy (if even present) labels on a battery are really trying to tell us.

Most SLAs indicate something like 15V for cyclic use, and 13.5-13.8 for standby use.

That's great and all, but ONLY if you know how to properly interpret the info. :(

The problem is, any significant gassing that occurs is NOT a transient event like it is in a flooded battery. In FLA, bubbles form, and are displaced by the electrolyte when their buoyancy is sufficient to take them to the top of the cell to be vented. The electrolyte returns to the surface of the plates, and everybody is happy.

This does not happen in an SLA, because of the absorbent separators (or gel, depending). The gas gets trapped,  combines with other bubbles, creates a large pocket, and nothing short of a miracle brings the electrolyte back in contact with the plates (read as "ain't gonna happen"). The result is a permanent loss of capacity.

The "cyclic use" they refer to means that avoiding the gas voids involves shutting the charger down completely when this voltage is hit. Most SLA chargers don't have a provision for this, and the result is the battery gasses itself to death. And you don't want to lollygag your way TO that 15V either. Use current limiting, and "ride it hard and put it away wet". This is the key concept. Wish someone would have explained it to me years ago... :-\

The same concepts apply for standby, but again, the "how long" part is not made clear by the label. The range is given to account for this somewhat, but its too vague for most people to avoid capacity loss from improper charging methods. The rule is, the longer you expect it to sit on float, the lower the voltage needs to be. A few hours? 13.8 wont hurt anything. A few days? 13.8 will dry it up by a few percent (as pointed out with the UPS issues, typically 13.75). 13.5V is a much better holding voltage where a week or more is expected. Prorate for in between. If more than a couple of weeks is expected, take it down to 13.2 or so (after its full, ie <C/500 current at 13.8V). So for a 7AH battery, this would be 14 mA.

Don't go straight from a "cyclic" charge to a float either, the gassing will continue to the point damage will still be done.

Even for cyclic use, I personally don't take it above 13.7V. Its better to not quite hit completely full than to over charge and gas it to death. I fill my SLAs by going to 14.1V and holding it for an hour about once every 10 cycles, or after a deep (<50% remaining capacity) discharge. This helps counteract the tendency toward sulfation, but doesn't hold it for so long at an elevated voltage for the gassing to kick in significantly.

Another important factor in SLA lifespan is charge rate. I've learned the hard way to keep it at C/20 and lower; higher than that and you're still gassing, before the battery even hits full!

The trick then becomes recovering your losses on a daily basis. Obviously, a C/20 rate means you have more battery than "sun" (since to slow the charge rate, you need longer days). The workaround is to size your bank (or panels) so that your battery is 20x your panel output in full sunlight, and only use the top 30% or so of the battery. With charging losses, this means about 8 hours of sun per day. This would be adjusted according to your weather, use, and location, but only to a degree - don't go too much higher than C/20 for your rate. To account for non-ideal circumstances, have more input available, but use current limiting. The above example also doesn't take into account powering any loads during the day - too many variables to consider here, but for a continuous load, only 10x the battery is a closer match, but then current limiting is a must if you want to have the batteries hang around for a while.

Something else that I have learned, but is difficult to keep track of, is that capacity loss is a self perpetuating problem, since what is important is not what the label indicates the capacity is, but what the EFFECTIVE capacity is. The label is only of use when the battery is new. Once it begins to lose capacity, the charge rate needs to be lowered to account for the reduced capacity, or the effective charge rate will increase, further perpetuating the failure.

Moral of the story is, as someone else here put it (can't remember now who) - SLA needs to be babied and RE is not naturally suited for the job. Despite this, many (myself included) have a successful SLA system up and running.

All of the above considerations are of an "ideal" nature. Many systems have some compromise in the design to balance complexity, cost, and requirements. In my case, my system is based on a single large flooded battery (8D, 220ish AH on 60W of panel), which then in turn is used to charge the SLA assortment. Its not the most efficient way,  but I don't have problems with SLA damage anymore either. There are multiple ways to approach this, many probably better than my methods, but eh, whatever. ;)

FWIW

Oh yeah - almost forgot - ghurd's connection method is the best, second only to the "multi equal length common tie point" thing. Common point is superior, by far, but when you have that many batteries tied together, the wiring can become a total clusterfsck and lends itself readily to a migraine with an itch for something to go wrong (or worse!) if detailed wire management is not employed...

Steve
« Last Edit: August 09, 2011, 01:18:15 AM by Madscientist267 »
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