Dazzed and confussed

[getvrtcl]

Hello to everyone.  As you can see I am new here and have been following a few things.  I have been collecting solar and wind components for about 6 years and storing them away until I was ready to make the move.  Well my last electric bill was $669.91 for 2 months.  I have had enough.  Now that bill is not the normal, but because of contractors repairing flood damage it was way up.  The normal is 350-370 and we are cutting back and conserving.  Due to a "retired" budget I have purchased items for years and have finally decided to put the system into working order.
I have the following so far:  Outback Flexmax 60 MPPT,  4-120 wt 12 vt Evergreen panels,  6-205 watt 24vt panels,  X-air 12vt turbine and tower,  8- 8146 6vt batteries (new)delivered this week, and a Xantrex prosine 2000-3000 inverter.

Here is what I think is my problem.  I am not sure I can integrate the 12 vt wind turbine with the 24vt solar array.  I have set up the Evergreens to give me 24vt and combined them with the other panels to give me 1719 watts @ 24vt.  The Outback with change that over to 12vt for the inverter but how can I tie the wind turbine into that?

I have many more questions but that is my problem  today, anyone have any input ?

[electrondady1]

i have no expertise in such things but there is a circuit called a "voltage doubler "

[TomW]

Conservation will hammer that high electric bill much faster and probably cheaper than making your own.

It is commonly accepted that it is far easier to save a watt than to make it.

Grid power is by far the least expensive (spelled monthly bill) way to obtain electricity. Assuming the grid is in place already, of course.

I got lost in your description of your system and did not notice the battery bank voltage mentioned.  If you convert from 24 volt solar to 12 volt batteries and your turbine is 12 volt then you can pretty much connect it directly to the batteries. Through a rectifier, of course. I do not know the equipment you mention so others may advise there.

Good luck with it.

Tom

[Flux]

I think Tom is about right. You don't make things very clear but I take it that your inverter is 12v. if so then the wind turbine will connect directly.

If you think the mppt converter is going to convert a 24v battery to 12v to run an inverter then you will be disappointed. it will convert your 24v panels to 12v  if you so want and use a 12v battery.

If the inverter is 12v you are stuck with a 12v battery. If you have the kit you might as well use it or the batteries will die before you get round to it but otherwise Tom is spot on.

Flux

[luv2weld]

What Tom said.
It's an AirX so the rectifier is built in.
The determining factor is what voltage in does the Prosine inverter require??? From your post I think it is 12 volt.

If your battery bank is going to be setup for 12 volts then there is no problem.
Have you read the owners manual for the Air X???
    
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/pdf.folder/wind%20pdf%20folder/air-x-manual.pdf

Or is it so confusing that it caused the questions?

Hook the output of the wind generator directly to the battery bank. Then use a dump load to keep the battery bank from over charging.


Ralph

[getvrtcl]

Conservation is the key I agree.  But when you use only $122.71 in electricity and the delivery charges all together are $243.95 then there I have a problem.  Our cost have increased so much here that if I take part of the load off the grid it will help.  My goal is to take my garage and my wifes greenhouse off the bill.  I have put a killowatts meter on everything I can think of and have kept track of my system so I am almost sure I can run what I want with it.  I also forgot that I am running a Natures Comfort 325G gasifier wood furnace with this system also.

[getvrtcl]

What Tom said.
It's an AirX so the rectifier is built in.
The determining factor is what voltage in does the Prosine inverter require??? From your post I think it is 12 volt.

If your battery bank is going to be setup for 12 volts then there is no problem.
Have you read the owners manual for the Air X???
    
http://www.wholesalesolar.com/pdf.folder/wind%20pdf%20folder/air-x-manual.pdf

Or is it so confusing that it caused the questions?

Hook the output of the wind generator directly to the battery bank. Then use a dump load to keep the battery bank from over charging.


Ralph

Yes and Yes.
If I hook the turbine directly I am not sure how or what to wire the dump load to the bank.  I am assuming I will need another controller???

[getvrtcl]

Sorry yes the inverter is 12v

[TomW]

Yes and Yes.
If I hook the turbine directly I am not sure how or what to wire the dump load to the bank.  I am assuming I will need another controller???

Check out Glen Hurds site. He explains quite well dump loads and the controller he builds just for this purpose.

Http://ghurd.info

Good Luck with this newfound addiction. There is no known cure.

Tom

[Flux]

I am not familiar with your mppt converter, if it acts as a charge controller as well as a converter for the solar then you would need to do something about the wind machine in theory. The Air x does have a built in controller and if you can set this a tiny bit lower than the solar it will shut the airx down as the batteries near full charge and the solar will complete the charge.

If the solar device is just a mppt converter then you will need an additional dump controller to drive the rump load. It then will deal with wind and solar.

Unless you live on a boat in the middle of the Pacific I doubt that the Airx will do much overcharging on those batteries anyway.

Flux

[ruddycrazy]

Hi Getvrl,
            You did state you have 2 different wattage PV panels so personally I would hook up the lower wattage ones in parallel, then hook up the bigger ones in series then connect them to the FM60. This will mean you will need a second controller for the smaller panels and it will only need to disconnect the panels when the batteries are totally charged. As far as the airX goes the guy out back of our place found the best cure for the airX which involved loctite......

Regards Bryan

[wooferhound]

Here is a Very Basic diagram on how to hook a renewable energy system up . . .

[getvrtcl]

Hi Getvrl,
            You did state you have 2 different wattage PV panels so personally I would hook up the lower wattage ones in parallel, then hook up the bigger ones in series then connect them to the FM60. This will mean you will need a second controller for the smaller panels and it will only need to disconnect the panels when the batteries are totally charged. As far as the airX goes the guy out back of our place found the best cure for the airX which involved loctite......

Regards Bryan

 loctite???

[ruddycrazy]

 loctite???

Yea the guy complained all the airX did was keep them awake at night and did buggerall in the way of charging the batteries so as joke over a few ales I suggested loctiting it solid and using it as a garden oranment. The next time I drove past his place sure enough the airX was closer to ground level and right in the middle of a garden patch. Also with his system he had a heap of small pv panels and couple of decent ones and asked me why are my batteries always flat. A quick look saw all the panels were in series going to an ancient mppt and I put a current meter on in the full sun and only saw 1.5 amps. So we got the pliers out and re-wired every pv panel so they were in parallel and got rid of the ancient mppt. Once connected back up over 10 amps were coming in and he was happier than a pig in a politicians promise.

This is why I suggested the setup for your PV panels, say if you put both the 110 watt and the bigger ones in series for the FM60 the best output you will see the lowest wattage panel.

Regards Bryan

[Flux]

I agree with Bryan about not connecting different wattage panels in series.

My thought was to connect the 4 12v ones in series for 48v and to connect the 24v with 3 groups of 48v, then connect all the 48v groups in parallel to the mppt converter.

I agree about the AirX, I just tried to put it a bit more diplomatically.

Flux

[rossw]

This is why I suggested the setup for your PV panels, say if you put both the 110 watt and the bigger ones in series for the FM60 the best output you will see the lowest wattage panel.

Just to clarify, because this can be read completely wrong....

80W + 110W + 180W + 210W in series, all "nominal 12V", in ideal sun etc. You won't ONLY get 80W out.

You will be limited to the current that the smallest can provide (lets say 6 amps for the 80W), so you'll get the equivalent of 4 * 80W panels, the extra capacity of the larger panels will be forefeit.

[getvrtcl]

I am sorry I was not clear.  The batteries will be set up for 12 volts.  The inverter I have runs on 12v. 
I understand in the Air-X manual that the turbine has its own built in controller so I will be hooking it direct to the bank.  I will also hook the 4 - 120 wt panels to the bank.  The 205 watt 24vt panels I will put on separate controller.

[fabricator]

Sell the airx and buy a couple more solar panels, they are hobby type toys and not worth the trouble.

[getvrtcl]

Too late The Air-x is on the tower.  My town does not allow wind turbines, sooooo I asked about lawn ornaments and there is NO regulations against them.  So my wife and I painted the tower green, the blades white and the center cap yellow, it looks like a 36 foot DAISY.  It has been renamed the Power Daisy.  Even if it does not work that great it proves this old Marine can still adapt and overcome.

[Madscientist267]

Stickin it to da man, one turbine, er ehem, FLOWER, yeah that's it, at a time...

I like this already, even if it doesn't put out squat. LOL

Sometimes intrinsic value just naturally prevails.

Got any pics of this thing yet?

Steve

[getvrtcl]

Of course it was windy for 4 days before I put it up.  NOW NO wind at all.  I have got to focus on getting everything wired up in the next 2 days.  My wife took a video I will attempt to get it on here soon.  Trying to find a simple understanding of what amp disconnect breakers to use on the system.  I thought a 70 amp on the PV input and 100 amp on the battery side.  But I am not sure.
One question for some one:  can AC breakers be used safely on the DC systems we all use?  I see alot of systems on youtube and so on that seem to use AC boxes and breakers on the DC side.
Thanks

[fabricator]

Yes, Square D by Schneider electric can be used in DC applications up to 100 amps I think, not the homewire breakers, it's the QO breakers.

[dave ames]

Hi getvrtcl,

Welcome to a fun hobby! 

Sounds like you are excited to get some PV up and charging and might offer some observations on your part A of the install (the four 120wp 12v evergreens on the flexmax 60).

For this array I would series all four modules to 48 volts nominal voltage, (about 68vmp and 88voc) and use a reasonable wire run of AWG 10 or 12 to a 15A breaker then the short run into the outback with #8 or a folded up end of #10 (those FM60 terminals want #8 or better) then out of the charge controller with AWG 2 or so through an 80 AMP breaker to the battery bus bar. (with four battery strings a bus bar setup is a nice way to go).

For part B of the install (the six 24 volt panels) time to think of some controller choices..two more FM60's? or maybe get away with one FM80 with some occasional losses? We have the potential of about 100Amps of current to the batteries with that array.

Is this an inspected install? Could be more to consider if so.

cheers, dave

[rossw]

For this array I would series all four modules to 48 volts nominal voltage, (about 68vmp and 88voc) and use a reasonable wire run of AWG 10 or 12 to a 15A breaker

Few inexpensive AC breakers can safely interrupt 80+ volts DC.
Given there was some mention earlier in this thread about using standard/cheap AC rated breakers, using them in this application would concern me greatly.

[kurt]

the QO breakers are only rated for 48v max iirc most people do not recommend them for more than 24v nominal systems

[getvrtcl]

Ok here goes.  After all of the info I have received here and a little from Outback support I have decided to take the  6 - 205 watt panels and wire 3 in series and then run the 2 series of 3 paralleled to the  OUTBACK FLEXMAX 60.  The other 4 - 120 watt 12vt panels and the Air-x I am running separately on another battery bank for my wife's greenhouse and our outdoor wood furnace.   That makes the greenhouse and heat system self supporting.  The other system will take care of our garage and the lighting in our house.  I will need another charge controller for the greenhouse and a pure sine inverter for the garage.I was also leaning towards one of these grid tie inverters to send back any excess to the grid to lessen the pain.  I think something like a c-40 would be fine for the greenhouse.  I am not sure about these "power jack" type inverters, seems a little like majic smoke to me, anyone have an opinion?
Thanks for all the help.

[dave ames]

Hey getvrtcl,

Sounds like a plan. You do know that the controller will be pegged (at 60amps) for most of the time? Might be worth the few watts to have an extra fan blowing across it..just a thought.
It Seems a shame to throw away that much power though.

I'd stay away from those Chinese firecracker grid tie thingies 

Cheers, dave

[fabricator]

If by "power jack" you mean the ones that plug into any outlet, it's not magic smoke it's illegal pretty much everywhere, and they are complete junk.

[dave ames]

"It Seems a shame to throw away that much power though." <- This is referring to the ~450 watts of wasted solar, not the few watts for the fan

...don't think there is any real overloading danger, controller wise. But any wiggle room on this? "I have decided to"

Hate to see people disappointed with the woulda, coulda, shoulda after the fact.

Kind regards, dave

[Madscientist267]

Had too many hazelnut cookies to be an adequate judge, but all this "power jack" stuff has me pondering more than the universe...

Do these sound "hacked" to anyone else? LOL

Steve

[getvrtcl]

"It Seems a shame to throw away that much power though." <- This is referring to the ~450 watts of wasted solar, not the few watts for the fan

...don't think there is any real overloading danger, controller wise. But any wiggle room on this? "I have decided to"

Hate to see people disappointed with the woulda, coulda, shoulda after the fact.

Kind regards, dave

Ok remember I am really new at this.  I don't understand how I am wasting 450 watts?  I DO NOT want to waste anything.  Please explain how, and if there is a way I can NOT waste the energy?
As far as the "power jack" things I was pretty sure they were a good way to waste money.
Thanks for all the help.

[getvrtcl]

"It Seems a shame to throw away that much power though." <- This is referring to the ~450 watts of wasted solar, not the few watts for the fan

...don't think there is any real overloading danger, controller wise. But any wiggle room on this? "I have decided to"

Hate to see people disappointed with the woulda, coulda, shoulda after the fact.

Kind regards, dave

There is always "wiggle" room.  What, do you have and idea.?

[dave ames]

Hi getvrtcl,

The thing is the fx60 is current limited to 60 Amps output. So we won't be able to make use of more than about 800 watts of solar at any given time on the input side..

I still believe there is some merit in "overloading" them a bit for certain applications. ie: more charge current early and later in the day and current limited during peak solar periods (this is my opinion only and not a recommended practice).

That means we won't make the best use of more than four of those modules while running a 12 volt system and would get another controller for the remaining two.

A good configuration for the FX60 might be two strings of two at 48 volts nominal. We can combine them with a pv combiner box with the proper rated fuses at the array and bring one set of larger sized conductors to the controller or bring them down as separate strings and combine them thru fuses near the controller.

There is always "wiggle" room.

I would like to take the opportunity to thank you for your service. I never served but have learned that when a Marine, especially an "Old Marine" says he has decided on something it's time to get out of the way! 

Cheers, dave