Author Topic: Homebrew MPP controler  (Read 9303 times)

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roosaw

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Homebrew MPP controler
« on: November 10, 2011, 01:32:08 PM »
In reading up on MPP I see that it is possible to construct one using the fact that the MPP is at ~.75 of V open circuit.  All fine and dandy if you want to turn off the panel to measure V open circuit and waste the power while doing it.  To achieve a rapid response you would have to do this around once a second at least.  It hit me that you do not have to turn off the panel that you are controlling if you have a cell of similar construction (cell not whole panel) lying around to use.  Just wire it to the controller directly to provide V open circuit to the chip.  Capture the cell V open circuit , multiply by 36 to get an equivalent panel voltage and multiply again by 0.75 to get the MPP voltage that you should set the panel to.  Then compare the panel voltage with the calculated MPP voltage and adjust as needed.
I've not seen this concept used anywhere.  Any thoughts on why this would not work?

Thanks
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rossw

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2011, 04:05:15 PM »
Any thoughts on why this would not work?

I think that your premise that Vmp = 0.75 * Voc is flawed.

I'm not an expert, but I understand the characteristics of a cell vary depending on cell temperature, illumination intensity, wavelength (or mix of wavelengths) of illumination source and probably other things. These will vary constantly during a typical day, and is the reason most MPPT solar controllers "hunt for" and "track" the maximum POWER output. (Remember, the output voltage and current will also change depending on the battery SOC, load, temperature etc!)

"It's complicated".
I'm sure simplistic estimates will get you close, and for many people they may well be "close enough".

roosaw

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2011, 09:01:10 AM »
That is why I though using a separate cell to account for temp, solar influx, etc would work.  The relationship of V open circuit to V MPP is pretty constant.  That is basically saying that the shape of the V/I curve is the same for all temps, solar fluxes etc.  Therefore the relationship between V(oc) and V(mpp) should also be the same.  I did read that the "official" way to do it is take the panel off line and open circuit it and record V(oc)  then multiply by 0.76 (I think this actually varies by cell type and such so some experimenting is probably in order) to get the V(mpp).
In my concept you don't take the panel off line you just use an additional single cell that is experiencing everything the panel is.  this cell stays in the open circuit configuration all the time so you can rapidly sample it to equally rapidly correct the panels output.

For the record I did not come up with the 0.76 relationship, that is documented in lots of other work.
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ghurd

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2011, 08:30:38 PM »
"thoughts"?
Yes.

Vmp : Vbattery.

Cold panels (winter) make higher PV Voc.
Low voltage batteries (winter?) change the ratio.
A battery may be 12.1V in winter (high use, low daily charge avalable), and the PV may be at -40 degrees in full sun at high noon.
MPPT trades PV Vmp toward suiting Vbattery.

The battery at the shop are at room temp.  The PVs are not.

0.76 is fine for a standard base point, but it is not where MPPT shines.
G-
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roosaw

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2011, 01:46:22 PM »
"thoughts"?
Yes.

Vmp : Vbattery.

>>Low voltage batteries (winter?) change the ratio.
>>A battery may be 12.1V in winter (high use, low daily charge available), and the PV may be at -40 degrees in full sun at high noon.
>>MPPT trades PV Vmp toward suiting Vbattery.
>>
>>The battery at the shop are at room temp.  The PVs are not.
>>
>>0.76 is fine for a standard base point, but it is not where MPPT shines.
G-

Cold panels.... agree.  The single cell would also be cold resulting in self adjustment
Low voltage batteries.....  I would typically have some sort of DIP switch to select for that situation.  Just like on a quality battery charger.  I'm just addressing finding Vpp not the batteries the panel is charging
My understanding of how MPP actually works is the panel is held at Vmpp (determind by one of three methods) for max watts into the controller.  The controller then sends that energy to the battery at the appropriate voltage for the charging situation (bulk, absor, or float) by using an inductor/cap circuit to modify Vmpp downwards.  The assumption here is that the Vmpp is in fact coming off a panel suited to actually charge the battery it is attached to.  Clearly a 6 volt panel will not charge a 12 volt battery no matter how good the controller is.  So the panel Vmpp (worst case conditions) must be above the battery absorption voltage (highest voltage a battery would see during charge) for that battery.  example: at 12 volt battery needs 14.4 volts during absorption charging so the panel MUST supply a Voc of  14.4/.76=18.95 volts during the worst case situation (high temp, overcast, shading, etc). 

So again;  I"m trying to eliminate the need to take the panel off line to measure Voc.  By adding a single similar cell that feeds the MPP controller I can measure a Voc that is proportional to what the panel Voc is and calculate what the panel Vmpp should be.  As the sun goes behind a cloud the panel looses solar flux and so does the single cell, Voc for the cell drops as does Voc for the panel.  The documents I have read indicate that taking the panel off line measuring Voc and then calculating a Vmpp=Voc*.76 is one valid way of doing it.  The problem is the loss of power from taking the panel off line about once a second to give a sufficiently rapid response to changing conditions.  This fixes that problem (I think).  They showed on a graph where the MPP point is (the knee) and noted that it falls at +- 2% at 0.76 Voc.  Granted it is not 100% but it is very fast (~10 times/sec) and leaves the panel on line 100% of the time.
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Dave B

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2011, 03:07:20 PM »
I say try it and let us know. You probably have stimulated some others here already into proto typing your idea or concept. There would be a huge demand taken away from the $500-$1000 MPPT companies holding that price in check together. Draw it up, date it and mail it to yourself. Leave it unopened, it might be helpful someday as proof of date of concept. People can get funny whan it comes to money. Go for it, it's always great to see someone doing their own thing.  Dave B.
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OperaHouse

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2011, 04:50:05 PM »
Truth is you can set the input of a switching regulator to a fixed voltage and you get better than 90% of the results of MPPT with only 5 or 6 adjustments a year.  Stick a bunch of dioded on the back of the panel and it will track temperature

boB

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2011, 05:13:03 PM »

This is pretty much how the RV Power Products, (now bluesky energy) works except they allow adjustment for a constant voltage "offset" rather than percentage of Voc.
It does work, but is not optimum...  Especially if there is partial shading, then it's WAY off.  75%  of Voc is a good starting point but sometimes 80% or more is optimum.
Insolation also affects the percentage of Voc MPP point.

boB

XeonPony

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2011, 10:37:29 PM »
That and morning star doesn't drop the pannels off to do the calk that I have noticed and been running the controller over 2 years now.

The next major problem you haven't adressed is where are we to get a single cell that matches the pannels specs? Do I need to buy an extra pannel and rip a cell out? There in lies the true problem to your method, I have seen controllers that can use a small pannel of the same spec to do the calculations.
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dnix71

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2011, 11:30:49 PM »
The real problem with any MPPT is impedance matching.

My BZ controller also backs off a bit as the battery voltage gets close to the final float point for a smoother final charge. It has a two stage circuit. If the panel voltage remains high enough under load it will buck down the voltage to increase the current, otherwise it just passes the panels to the battery to lower the losses from the MPPT itself.

Ideal power transfer occurs when the internal resistence of the battery equals the internal resistence of the string of pv. The battery impedance doesn't change very fast but PV impedance can change very fast depending on clouds and the wind, esp. if you have a lot of thin film panels on a string like I do. The cheap Harbor Freight panels are stupidly heat sensitive.

birdhouse

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2011, 01:09:17 AM »
Quote
That and morning star doesn't drop the pannels off to do the calk that I have noticed and been running the controller over 2 years now.

i don't think this is absolutely true.  it's kinda splitting hairs, but IIRC the morningstar disconnects the PV array for 3/10's of a second every three minutes to monitor Voc of the array. 

just bought a rogue mpt-3024.  it is supposed to NEVER disconnect the array and run at a (worst case) minimum of 96%+ eff.  i don't know how they do that, but it seems to be the cats meow in affordable mppt. going to install it this weekend. 

i also agree that using one cell to dictate the .76% thing will probably do better than a pwm controller most of the time, though there may be times where it does worse. 

pwm controller are obviously obtainable self built units (the awesome ghurd unit), however i think mppt is a whole different beast.  i think folks that are capable of building such things (not me), with a very high eff.  are probably not asking questions here.  rather building their prototypes, testing them, then asking themselves questions as to what could be improved.   

i think there are too many variables within the control group (single cell) that could fudge up the eff. to a point that much time/money was spent on a home brew unit that has minimal gain overall from the pwm standard or the same money could be better spent on a commercial mppt unit with a warranty. 

not trying to sound like a debbie downer, but it's a pretty tall order to build a homemade mppt controller that really truly has significant gains through the entire charging spectrum. 

adam

roosaw

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2011, 09:36:27 AM »
In no specific order
XionPony: You add the cell as part of the controller.  Just need to know if mono, poly, or amoph panels are being used
Great Idea Dave B. on protecting the concept
OperaHouse: I was wondering about that.  My calculations showed that also.  What that really menans is that clouds and loss of flux are not as much a problem as I though

Nothing I'm hearing here is discouraging me so I think I'll get the PIC micro breadboard out and fire up the programing software.

I'll let youall know how things turn out.

Bill
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madlabs

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2011, 03:44:41 PM »
Truth is you can set the input of a switching regulator to a fixed voltage and you get better than 90% of the results of MPPT with only 5 or 6 adjustments a year.  Stick a bunch of dioded on the back of the panel and it will track temperature

Opera,

Can you tell us a little more about this idea? I take it you mean any switch mode regulator that can handle the current, and then set the output to match your battery voltage? If there is a switcher that the output can be controlled with a digital pot it would be easy to make a 3 stage charger.

Diodes and temperature tracking?

Thanks,

Jonathna

roosaw

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2011, 09:32:03 AM »
While OperaHouse's comment is valid (my opinion) I believe he is addressing (Opera, please pipe in and confirm) a specific setup that has large storage compared to the loads and has plenty of panel to keep them charged.  In this arrangement the batteries almost never leave float charge so you really don't need much in the way of three stage charging and other stuff like temp management of the batteries.
If you go to the other end of the spectrum with smaller storage and larger loads and panels just big enough to keep them charged you really do need a more dynamic management of the system.
I take from all this that there is no one size fits all controller.  What works for me may work for you but have extra stuff you don't need and would not wish to pay for.  I'm designing this for my boat (that smaller storage, smaller panels and larger load type system) and am trying to eek every last erg out the the system I can.

I created a spread sheet that does the load/storage/production calculations.  It tracks the energy usage/production/storage by the hour while on a cruise.  It lets you play with the production and storage numbers to see if your system will actually survive over time without turning on the engine to charge the batteries.  alternately it will tell you when to turn the engine on and how long to leave it running to get to some acceptable state of charge.  also lets you time the loads so you can see how that effects the system.  It has, IMHO, application to any solar/wind setup.  If anybody wants a copy email me at william-roosa@us.army.mil, it is free and I'd like to get some feed back on imprivements or "stuff I missed"
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RP

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2011, 09:58:34 AM »
I've been following this thread and I have to question the premise of disconnecting the panel and reading the Voc to drive the MPPT algorithm.

It seems to me that there is no need to do that at all unless this is some sort of analog-only control system.  After all, the purpose is to maximize current into the batteries no matter what the Voc is, the temperature, shadows, etc.  Therefore the only input to the process should be amperage to the batteries, not voltage from the source.

With even a simple micro-controller and some sort of Pulse Width Modulation controlled buck-circuit, the process would seem to be (roughly):

1.  On power up set the PWM to 50% and read the current to the batteries.

2.  Try raising the PWM by 5% and compare to see if the current is higher

3.  If yes, go back to step 2 again.

4.  If no, lower the PWM by 5% and compare to see if the current is higher.

5.  If yes, go back to step 4 again, if no go back to step 2.

In all cases, the panel does not need to be turned off and the worst case (after the initial start up) is that you periodically shift off the optimum PWM setting by a few percent.  Even then, the test only needs to happen every few seconds or so.

madlabs

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2011, 11:53:42 AM »
RP,

That is what I did when I was experimenting with homebrew MPPT. I used an Allegro Hall effect sensor on the output and it worked. I never did any precise tests to see how much gain, but it was in the ballpark of 20%, as one would expect. My problem was stepping up to large enough currents to be worth it for me. Above 5 amps or so I had trouble drving the FET properly and so it got too hot. I was layout etc issues. I am working on an inkjet PCB setup so that I can easily experiment with different FET drivers and layouts. Protoboard just doesn't seem to work at higher power levels.

Jonathan

OperaHouse

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2011, 04:17:17 AM »
To answer some comments.  Many switching regulators have dual inputs like the TL494,  Normally these set the maximum voltage and current the regulator can output.  Instead of limiting the current, that input can set the input voltage to the panels maximum power point.  The regulators cycle can be turned off by either the battery reaching the maximum voltage or the panel voltage dropping below  the set power point voltage.  Even simple trgulators with one control input can have a second control input by just adding an extra transistor to fool it into thinking the battery voltage is too high.

If you just monitored the panel voltage you would need to have an overly large battery in order to not overcharge. 

Ordinarily a resistive voltage divider creates a voltage  which is compared to a reference voltage to set the power point.  A colder panel produces a higher voltage than a hot one.  For most of the day the panel reaches a nominal temperature so the operating voltage only needs to be changed a couple of times a year as the seasons change.   This can be automatically compensated for by having a thermisistor attached to one of the panels.  Calculating the values for the resistor divider network can be quite complicated to get it to track properly.  Solar panels are basically a bunch of diodes in series.  Stack a bunch of diodes in series and it will imitate a zener, a very temperature dependent zener.   That will let the panels track the dailt temperature changes.

Trying to operate 12V panel  MPPT into a 12V is a waste of effort because of the basic voltage overhead losses.  Maaybe with some luck you can get a 10% boost.  At 24V input you see some real gains.  Next year I am going to 48V input at the camp.  The regulators will be the winter project.  The world really does change when you go over 5A.  Multiple switchersin parallel is a good way to overcome this.

roosaw

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2011, 10:40:33 AM »
MPP is max POWER not max current.  This is a little confusing when you are dealing with a battery that changes its voltage during charge/discharge.
There are two sides the panel side and the load side.  If the load just took what you gave it and had a fixed resistance then you could figure out what the amps out would be and set up a very simple circuit to do that.  Since lead acid batteries have a changing internal (more when charged and less when discharged) resistance and voltage limits for safety you need a more intelligent controller.
The panel side holds the panel at the MPP voltage (and amps) and the load side supplies the right voltage to charge the battery given what it senses it needs.  To keep the cost and complexity down (and use stuff I have laying around) i chose the constant voltage method modified so I did not have to take the panel off line to measure Voc.  Since the panel is not the thing being sampled I can a) sample much more frequently and b) not have to implement a way to measure either power (perturb and observe method) or amps (incremental conductance method).
Here is the wiki page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_power_point_tracking

I/V curve for various input fluxes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solar-Cell-IV-curve-with-MPP.png
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madlabs

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2011, 11:09:46 AM »
What power levels are you shooting for? All the DIY stuff I see around is 5 amps or so. If you come up with a DIY 20 amp + MPPT you will be my new best friend. :)

What PCB method are you planning to use? I have access to a CNC router for PCB's (not good for small surface mount stuff) and am working on an inkjet PCB rig.

Jonathan

XeonPony

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2011, 02:25:32 PM »
20 meh I want a 200A MppT controller that all so cleans the carpets and fills the wood pile for the stove! Now that's what we all need ;)

In all seriousnes Good luck man!
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RP

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2011, 05:37:42 PM »
MPP is max POWER not max current. 

I guess I can't think of a case where maximum current into the batteries is NOT maximum power (assuming this is a battery charging application). 

The voltage on the battery side is set by the battery chemistry and state of charge and not controllable by the charger itself except by feeding power in at a sufficient voltage to cause increasing current flow into the battery.

Maybe I'm missing something...

roosaw

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2011, 02:39:46 PM »
madlabs
The power level I'm shooting for is 30-40 amps at 14.4 volts but that is just a function of the transistors used not the logic/control circuit

XeonPony
I'll try and work that in, are those shag or cut pile carpets?

RP
imagine a totally dead battery.  the panels have an Vmpp of 18 volts and 30 amps (540 Watts).  The batteries voltage will be controlled by the battery chemistry but certainly not be 18 volts.  If they bulk charge at 11 volts then I'd be getting 49 amps to the batts and not the 30 from the panels.  If I let the panel voltage (direct connect) be the battery voltage I'd only get 11 volts and a max of 30 amps and probably significantly less or a power of 330 Watts (=330/540=61%) best case.  That is a 40% loss of current and certianly significant.  The MPP controller is a transformer and by holding the panels at Vmpp I get more amps out the other side at lower voltage (determined by the batteries).  Which is why you ALWAYS want the Vmpp to be above 14.4 for lead acid batteries so the transformer circuit does not have to be a boost transformer (much more involved and expensive circuit). 
It is all about getting power out and not caring (much) about either the volts or amps at the panel and putting amps in the batteries so in effect you are correct (max charge in AH is also max amps times time which is constant in this case) but you were talking about the panel I believe not the battery side of the circuit.  Perhaps I'm confused also.
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roosaw

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2011, 02:41:59 PM »
MP
Forgot one thing, a discharged battery has a lower internal resistance (hense the 11 volts bulk charging voltage in this example) than a more charged one.  That is how you get more current to flow from the same power source.
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boB

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2011, 04:19:17 PM »

RP
imagine a totally dead battery.  the panels have an Vmpp of 18 volts and 30 amps (540 Watts).  The batteries voltage will be controlled by the battery chemistry but certainly not be 18 volts.  If they bulk charge at 11 volts then I'd be getting 49 amps to the batts and not the 30 from the panels.  If I let the panel voltage (direct connect) be the battery voltage I'd only get 11 volts and a max of 30 amps and probably significantly less or a power of 330 Watts (=330/540=61%) best case.  That is a 40% loss of current and certianly significant.  The MPP controller is a transformer and by holding the panels at Vmpp I get more amps out the other side at lower voltage (determined by the batteries).  Which is why you ALWAYS want the Vmpp to be above 14.4 for lead acid batteries so the transformer circuit does not have to be a boost transformer (much more involved and expensive circuit). 
It is all about getting power out and not caring (much) about either the volts or amps at the panel and putting amps in the batteries so in effect you are correct (max charge in AH is also max amps times time which is constant in this case) but you were talking about the panel I believe not the battery side of the circuit.  Perhaps I'm confused also.


I don't think that RP meant to connect the panels directly to the batteries and bypass the advantages of MPPT.
I do think that what he meant was that the MPPT controller can use the max output current of the controller rather than
multiplying the output voltage by the output current to find the MPP voltage of the array.

I prefer to use power as the tracking number rather than current, but usually for battery charging, current is plenty good enough.
This is how the OB MX60 worked for years and I believe the newer FMs still use current.  It's probably hard to tell the difference.

When the higher current is being put into the battery bank, the voltage across the battery will be brought up too, so
power should also  be at a maximum.  There may be exceptions to this but not very often.

Thanks,
boB


roosaw

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2011, 08:08:10 AM »
boB
I'd agree RP is smart enough to figure that out.  I was only trying to explain two extreme cases to get the batteries charged.  One maximizes the current with fancy MPP equipment and the other just takes it in the shorts due to the battery controlling the voltage of the panel.
His observation is correct and some controllers use that method to determine Vmpp.  The problem is they are hill climbing programs which have to seek a solution to a moving target.  They don't do well on a sailboat that is moving around in the sun in more or less random ways.  i need a much faster solution to determin Vmpp for all those different panel/sun angles.  Hill climbing algorithms typically do not do well and get confused when the "solution" moves around. 
It is my premise (yet to be proved BTW) that by assuming Vmpp(panel)=0.76*Voc(cell)*36(cells/panel) AND having a off panel cell to give me Voc I can sample the cell as fast as the processor can run the program and get a solution without hunting around for it.  I believe the inefficiency in assuming 0.76*Voc=Vmpp is less that the inefficiency of the slower measure amps, measure volts, amps*volts, check with stored value, if less bump volts in one direction, if more bump volts in the other, store new value, repeat.  All the time the "solution" is moving around and the program has no knowledge of that.  I'm sure that on a perfectly clear day with panels on the top of a roof this is not that much of a problem.  You ever see a boat swing on its anchor?
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joestue

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2011, 09:50:17 AM »
They don't do well on a sailboat that is moving around in the sun in more or less random ways.

Tim Nolan would disagree with you. however, he has since updated his website and the 4 channel mppt unit he built for his sail boat back in 2002-3 which worked quite well is no longer documented, but he has put together an arduino package that uses as far as i can remember, very similar code, and is quite fast.

There is nothing wrong with hill climbing algorithms. What is wrong (in the context of we've got 50 mips, why not use them) is using constant deviation.
there is a circuit floating around the net that uses a 4066 chip an opamp and a pwm controller to make a rudimentary modulation and demodulation circuit that actually works, but it has no provision to wrap an automatic gain control around the deviation oscillator, so it will always push the PWM around at 50hz, or whatever you set it too. I suppose such a system would inherently be unstable though if the gain is too high, and difficult to build.
However, anyone can look at the PV chart and see that a 2% change in current isn't really that bad, and given that its really +/-1% in either direction from the peak, its really not worth the effort to use active methods to reduce that ripple.
That said, analogue methods will be able to lock on to a secondary MPPT point and can't tell the difference, if these points exist at all (several manufacturers claim their digital processing methods will find the highest mppt point -like ripples in the pass band)

As far as the speed, in theory it can be done very quickly, limited only by the RC time constant of the solar panel themselves.
In practice the fundamental limitation is response time of the dc-dc converter and processing power.
An efficient synchronous buck converter running at 100Khz will be able to make fairly clean audio if you were to drive speakers with it, so we're essentially limited by the processing power alone.
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roosaw

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Re: Homebrew MPP controler
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2011, 10:08:06 AM »
Hey joestue
I hear you, I'm not trying to bash hill climbing algorithms but they do require more sensors to accomplish the task.  a solution that only requires two voltage sensors is an "on chip" solution using simple A/D
My time is free (to me) and I am on a budget so KISS and cheap are the words of the day.
 
Leadership must be taken, it cannot be given