Betts Law question.

[Jerry]

Well I was trying to be polite and admit a error, seems that's irreverent.

 

GerryD
You've been fairly calm during this fire storm. You've also admitted an error. Those 2 things are a good indication to me. We all make mistakes. I certainly make my share. You have been respectfull enough to me that I hold no grudge.

I will however be following your product and its listed performance specifications very closely. As I'm sure every one here will be also. I only wish that all small wind power products could have been so closely scrutinized. Its terrible when you tell the truth but your competitors don't. However there reputation is built on that lie and they won't stand the test of time.

Its the old saying. Anything worth doing is worth doing it well. Show me honest logical #s and I'll back you to the hilt. I think you could say your playing to a ruff crowd. That's just part of life.

Now go do the right thing and prosper.

Jerry

[Jerry]

Gerryd.

In your now removed video you suggested anyone  intrested in small wind power should do there home work. We have and boy howdy.

Thanks for that suggestion. I hope you keep this suggestion in your new video.  I'm looking forward to that one. In the next video I'd like to see a much clearer view of the meters. I really liked the use of separate amp and volt meters + the anemometer. That was great. Just waite for a windy day the #s will be more impressive.

Jerry

[CaptainPatent]

Well I was trying to be polite and admit a error, seems that's irreverent.

 

If you meant it that way, I'll hold my tongue on further comment. The quote I took from your last post seemed rather dismissive though.

I'm glad to hear you've taken down the videos and modified the site and those are solid steps. I can respect that.

All I'm saying is be careful where you step if you're claiming to break laws of known physics. If you aren't, you'll catch a whole lot of toes on the way.

Cheers,

Bruce W.

[richhagen]

Current claim on the website is 720 Watts at 14 Mile per hour wind.  I'd have a hard time believing anything over 250 Watts for a small scale 65" turbine.  The reason is that, if my calculations are correct, there is only an amount of about about 674 Watts of kinetic energy available in a 65" diameter column of air at sea level at zero degrees celsius for that wind speed.  If the overall efficiency at that wind speed was a generous 35% as power into the grid, then that would be about 236 Watts.  Less for warmer air and higher altitude.  As  Rossw pointed out it was previously more than an order of magnitude out.  It is now within 10% of the total kinetic energy available, although it is still at least 80% more than what has ever been found to be possible to accomplish as far as converting that energy to electricity. 

Gerryd, I would seriously wait until the testing is done at the independent lab before posting definitive power claims, especially if I did not have an extremely precise way to measure the wind speed.  Since the power available is a function of the cube of the wind speed, a relatively small under measurement there could result in generation of a rather inflated power curve.  For example, if the wind speed was actually 15 miles per hour instead of 14, you would have about 23% more power available in the wind to start with, it still would not make 720 Watts make sense, but maybe your measurements were even less exact.

[Gerryd]

The stator we use is designed to output 700 watts at 975 rpm with 65" radius blades this information is from the manufacture of the stator.

[TomW]

The stator we use is designed to output 700 watts at 975 rpm with 65" radius blades this information is from the manufacture of the stator.

Which, of course, you are fully aware is NOT the same as that wind being able to drive the thing to produce those numbers.

You scammers are all the same. Slipperier than whale snot.

Obfuscate the facts with numbers that do not address the real issues.

I would say go away but its too much fun watching you bury yourself here in public for all to see forever.
.

Tom

[Rover]

There is a big difference in 65" radius vs diameter. So in reality we are discussing a ~11 ft turbine ?

Then the output numbers don't seem so out of wack.  But then running an 11 ft turbine at just under 1000 rpm , starts getting out of wack again.

I too would be interested in the test results. Based on the specs just seems way to fast for something that big ...

Rover

[Jerry]

I think what is needed here is a through and technical discusion of the power and rpm capabilities of the 10-se and 12-si Delco car alternator these type wind generators are based on.

I have done much extended and in depth testing both on the bench as well as in the wind on these units. I've pushed them as hard as I could with the best stator, rotor mods and loads. I've never seen much over 300 watts. That push was at around 30 to 40 mph.  Review my testing on the old board.

To get over the 300 watt figure the alternator would have to be lengthened to accommodate a longer stator. This is similar to Prestolite, I think that's the Cos name. They use a double alternator in one case. A lengthened stator would also require a lengthened magnet rotor. This physical change would make this power rating, blade size and rpm closer to possible then the stock Delco size.

I use  a 2.5 HP  DC prime driver motor, 5 KW variac, 10 KW DC power supply, Infer red tach, 12, 24 or 48 volt battery bank load, 100 amp meter and such for testing alts like this. By the way my 48 volt battery weighs in at around 1200 LBs.

I could certainly  test Gerryd's   alternator and confirm its power at any rpm. Its power in the wind would also be easy to confirm with a truck mounted test. This would not be as accurate but it would be close enough to shed some light on the published #s.

Jerry

[Watt]

I believe that must have been a mis-type. ' 65" radius '  Comparing the turbine blade diameter with that of the 18" dish just below and to the left, there is no way that turbine was a ~11 foot diameter.  

Does ~552 feet per second tip speed seem right for 65" radius at 975rpm?
Does ~276 feet per second tip speed seem right for 65" diameter at 975rpm?

[Rover]

I honestly don't know what the unit really is. I am going with the fact it is not an 11' machine... but need to point out to GerryD that such slight mistakes... well they can change the ball game.

I'm all for Jerry giving this a test... seen enough of his test data to know its realistic. Maybe the two of you can make some kind of deal on what to do with the results. Error factors, etc etc etc ... publish or not.

I'd rather see a true producing turbine @100-300W than some derived imaginary number (even the manufacturer will inflate the #'s) . I really think those interested would as well.

Rover

[wdyasq]

I believe that must have been a mis-type. ' 65" radius '  Comparing the turbine blade diameter with that of the 18" dish just below and to the left, there is no way that turbine was a ~11 foot diameter.  

Does ~552 feet per second tip speed seem right for 65" radius at 975rpm?
Does ~276 feet per second tip speed seem right for 65" diameter at 975rpm?

552X3600(seconds in an hour)/5280 ... Tip speed= 376mph ....

Zipping along well,

Ron

[Watt]

Rover

I was in support of your post, just didn't say it well. 

I was trying to get around the tip speed of that turbine no matter the diameter at 975rpm. 

Did I do something wrong in the figures?  If not, that thing must scream with claims of being quiet.  Those blades, holy .... could they be prone to cracking as manufactured and sold on that unit? 

[Jerry]

The stator we use is designed to output 700 watts at 975 rpm with 65" radius blades this information is from the manufacture of the stator.

Gerryd.

What is the rotor being used with this alternator?  Thanks.

Jerry

[Gerryd]

I'm sorry everyone, but I have nothing more to say to you all. Simply whatever I say you don't believe anyway. If you really want to go after someone here are a few ideas.

1.) go after the NON UL Approved grid-tie companies. They pose are severe risk of harm to anyone using them.

2.) go after the stator manufactures that claim their stator produce 1600 watts with 29" blades.

3.) go after the politicians who can't keep a promise

No one on this board owns one of my units, so your claims are not valid with me any longer.

Good Day
 

[rossw]

I'm sorry everyone, but I have nothing more to say to you all. Simply whatever I say you don't believe anyway.

If you had anything believable to say, or even if you had something UNbelievable to say BUT HAD PROOF TO SUBSTANTIATE IT, it'd be a whole different ball game.

1.) go after the NON UL Approved grid-tie companies. They pose are severe risk of harm to anyone using them.

Your *IMPLICATION* there is that you ARE UL-approved. You are not. "Offering" a UL-listed device (at a premium price, only if the customer asks for it, but the budget price advertised unit appears to include a NON-UL-APPROVED device) doesn't change your status to magically "approved"

2.) go after the stator manufactures that claim their stator produce 1600 watts with 29" blades.

People on this board have in the past and will no doubt in future.

3.) go after the politicians who can't keep a promise

That implies that some politicians CAN keep a promise. I'm not sure such an animal exists.

No one on this board owns one of my units, so your claims are not valid with me any longer.

Good luck getting any "informed" person to buy your stuff with such overinflated, unsubstantiated, implausible claims as to its operation.

[Watt]

I'm sorry everyone, but I have nothing more to say to you all. Simply whatever I say you don't believe anyway. If you really want to go after someone here are a few ideas.

1.) go after the NON UL Approved grid-tie companies. They pose are severe risk of harm to anyone using them.

2.) go after the stator manufactures that claim their stator produce 1600 watts with 29" blades.

3.) go after the politicians who can't keep a promise

No one on this board owns one of my units, so your claims are not valid with me any longer.

Good Day

 

Wow, you weaseled out this one.  So you thought.  

A. Didn't you endorse those non UL listed inverters in your video simply by reselling them?
B. Aren't you one of the customers of the claimed stator manufacture you represented above and being resold by you?
C. Aren't companies such as yours influencing politicians to offer incentives to purchasers of your claimed product in question on this very forum?  

Stay and support your product.  

[richhagen]

Caveat emptor!  - BUYER BEWARE - this turbine is not going to break the laws of physics, and my conclusion, based upon one of the  principal's responses here is that the claimed "engineers" who worked on this, or at least those individuals promoting this unit don't even understand what those are.  This is not the only small turbine being marketed in such a way, but it is being marketed that way.  Buyer beware.

[Watt]

PS:   GerryD

You'd be better off using this forum and it's users to help you and the other engineer re-ENGINEER this whole setup to the claimed 700 watt output. 

My suggestion, get it into winds which support that output, larger swept area and use a step up transmission on those longer blades to spin that rotor/stator combination.  Unlike you, others on this board know what it takes to make 700 watts and what winds they DID make that power with what blades. 

Regards.

[Jerry]

I'm sorry everyone, but I have nothing more to say to you all. Simply whatever I say you don't believe anyway. If you really want to go after someone here are a few ideas.

1.) go after the NON UL Approved grid-tie companies. They pose are severe risk of harm to anyone using them.

2.) go after the stator manufactures that claim their stator produce 1600 watts with 29" blades.

3.) go after the politicians who can't keep a promise

No one on this board owns one of my units, so your claims are not valid with me any longer.

Good Day
 

Gerryd.

I didn't find the company that your refuring to in #2 but I did find these guys.

Can't remember what the company name was though. Maybe someone here will recognize this wind generator? Oh hey it has 5 blades kool.

Jerry

[KBwind]

My goodness- another one of these - just ridiculous stuff in this thread. This forum is every start-ups worst nightmare (or best friend depending on how you look at it). But the problem is and always will be that a il intentioned non clever person will make claims and when asked to defend them will say "I will provide data when I'm ready and it's available" while still promoting their
Pin-wheel like it's the solution to the economic crisis. Smart il intentioned people can just do some basic high-school math to come up with realistic numbers and then go on to be these big sleazy wind companies that we all know and despise.

I have nothing to say about the OWP farce but as a separate observation I have yet to see (in the last few years I have been following this forum like a high-schooler checks facebook) anyone get to this forum with a business oriented turbine venture and not get crucified. (if I have missed a successful post let me know and I'll go back to do more reading - I guess the ghurd controller could be a counter example but that's much smaller honest business).

Can there be a positive relationship between this forum and new business? Is there a categorical conflict of interest since this forum is associated seemingly with a separate operation that sells turbines and parts? Is there a forum policy regarding this type of thing? I don't know but would like to. (if this is too far off topic or consider a hijack please squash this response)

[Watt]

My goodness- another one of these - just ridiculous stuff in this thread. This forum is every start-ups worst nightmare (or best friend depending on how you look at it). But the problem is and always will be that a il intentioned non clever person will make claims and when asked to defend them will say "I will provide data when I'm ready and it's available" while still promoting their
Pin-wheel like it's the solution to the economic crisis. Smart il intentioned people can just do some basic high-school math to come up with realistic numbers and then go on to be these big sleazy wind companies that we all know and despise.

I have nothing to say about the OWP farce but as a separate observation I have yet to see (in the last few years I have been following this forum like a high-schooler checks facebook) anyone get to this forum with a business oriented turbine venture and not get crucified. (if I have missed a successful post let me know and I'll go back to do more reading - I guess the ghurd controller could be a counter example but that's much smaller honest business).

Can there be a positive relationship between this forum and new business? Is there a categorical conflict of interest since this forum is associated seemingly with a separate operation that sells turbines and parts? Is there a forum policy regarding this type of thing? I don't know but would like to. (if this is too far off topic or consider a hijack please squash this response)

I believe you may have missed the foundations of this forum.  This is a DIY forum made up of individuals that either have been or could have been victims of such companies as this thread depicts.  The founders of this forum helped pioneer turbines which do make power and make power in the wind range most individuals can reach at home.  Crucify?  No, just held accountable. 

[ghurd]

The following comments may or may not be approved by the administration.
They are my thoughts.

I'm sorry everyone, but I have nothing more to say to you all. Simply whatever I say you don't believe anyway. If you really want to go after someone here are a few ideas.

We do not try to get 10,000W out of one of those 1970 alky filled era felt covered bobbing glass birds either.

1.) go after the NON UL Approved grid-tie companies. They pose are severe risk of harm to anyone using them.

Is yours UL listed?

2.) go after the stator manufactures that claim their stator produce 1600 watts with 29" blades.

I expect they could do that, at a NASA lab, with a nuke powered tornado powering it, etc.

Is NASA selling it?
No.  You sell it.

3.) go after the politicians who can't keep a promise

Politicians are not promising things here.
You are.

No one on this board owns one of my units, so your claims are not valid with me any longer.

YOU do NOT own a unit that does what YOU claim, and YOU Never did.

Your claims are no longer valid with ME.
They never were.

("There isn't that much power available going through a set of blades 65" diameter")

Betts, Betz, Betz's, Beteze's, or whatever way Jerry decides to spell it today... or tomorrow...
You still brought a paper clip to a gun fight.
G-

[KBwind]

Thanks for the clarification. No disrespect intended. Crucify may have been a too colorful a word. I am glad and thankful this forum holds those mentioned accountable and holds them hard!

[CaptainPatent]

2.) go after the stator manufactures that claim their stator produce 1600 watts with 29" blades.

You mean with blades that break the laws of known physics? Why, I do believe you fall into this category. It's just to a lesser extent.

And there are a lot of posts that advertise how well some various company's components are doing in various setups and we love to hear raw data from anyone. This board is very kind to commercial ventures that do what they advertise, not to people who, at best, mis-measure their input and output and at worst, make blatant fraudulent claims about their device.

And you are right that there are people who misrepresent data to a much larger extent and non-UL grid ties do put people in real danger, but that doesn't automatically make the misrepresentations you present right.

And by the way - we would absolutely love for you to prove us wrong. If there actually is a way to make a device nearly 300% more efficient than the known current "ideal" we'd love to know about it in the form of test data and results, but it already looks like in the battle of "put up or shut up" you've simply decided to do the latter.

[birdhouse]

i know 700 watts.  my ill-designed 8.5' (dia) mill will put out 700 watts in heavy winds... guessing around 30mph.  sure it cuts in a little late, but it does work, and "boasts"   a whopping 2.5 times larger swept area than this 65" dia mill.  there's no way a *perfectly* designed mill of 65" dia. will put out 700w in a 12.5 mph wind.  forget the math, it's just not possible from what i've witnessed in ACTUAL TURBINE PRODUCTION.  

seems gerryd thinks we're the ones in the nut house, but i'm sure he will be humbled greatly once he gets results back from the independent testing firm he has employed. his tune may change rather quickly.  

adam

[TomW]

KBwind;

I am so glad I am a civilian here now so I can say this without it being interpreted as "policy" or "official":

I disagree with your illogical or uninformed opinion.  Only a fool or idiot buys these scammer claims. Oh, I get it. You are one of them aren't you? Are you in commercial small wind?

I guess we do crucify the snakes and scammers.

Should we just roll over and say sure that is the greatest thing since naked tatas on TV?

Sorry, pal but You cannot polish a turd

We call them as we see them and many of us know no other way. Many have come here trying to blow smoke up our arses none have survived.

I find it entertaining if a bit unfair being in a battle of wits with the unarmed. Just look through this thread to see this one squirm, say, then unsay then change his website to try to cover his butt and still tell get it grossly wrong. It is hilarious.

KB tell me where we got it wrong here. Seriously. I checked the math and his claims are just so wrong it can't be benign.

I say we keep this thread alive as an archive to show up on Google and torpedo his ability to sell his lies. But that is just me. Put his website  and a link to this thread in my signature to be sure this thread shows up on every search. For years.
 
Tom

[CaptainPatent]

seems gerryd thinks we're the ones in the nut house, but i'm sure he will be humbled greatly once he gets results back from the independent testing firm he has employed. his tune may change rather quickly.  

Either that or the testing firm isn't so independent. I think everyone here - be it with hundreds of builds under their belt like Jerry or who only have a theoretical knowledge like myself know it isn't possible unless known physical laws are wrong.

By the way - side note - LOTS of people are on tonight it seems! Kinda cool.

[Watt]

I don't believe this post is a crucify example either. 

This is Tom, strong opinion but it is what it is. 

As a community, we can only take so much and see just so much BS. 

Good one Tom. 

KBwind;

I am so glad I am a civilian here now so I can say this without it being interpreted as "policy" or "official":

I disagree with your illogical or uninformed opinion.  Only a fool or idiot buys these scammer claims. Oh, I get it. You are one of them aren't you? Are you in commercial small wind?

I guess we do crucify the snakes and scammers.

Should we just roll over and say sure that is the greatest thing since naked tatas on TV?

Sorry, pal but You cannot polish a turd

We call them as we see them and many of us know no other way. Many have come here trying to blow smoke up our arses none have survived.

I find it entertaining if a bit unfair being in a battle of wits with the unarmed. Just look through this thread to see this one squirm, say, then unsay then change his website to try to cover his butt and still tell get it grossly wrong. It is hilarious.

KB tell me where we got it wrong here. Seriously. I checked the math and his claims are just so wrong it can't be benign.

I say we keep this thread alive as an archive to show up on Google and torpedo his ability to sell his lies. But that is just me. Put his website  and a link to this thread in my signature to be sure this thread shows up on every search. For years.
 
Tom

[birdhouse]

ive already done it, but if other would like to follow, give a thumbs down to his videos and write a comment if you please on youtube. 

i was about to give the links, but both videos have been "removed by user" in the last 15 minutes...

adam

[TomW]

ive already done it, but if other would like to follow, give a thumbs down to his videos and write a comment if you please on youtube. 

i was about to give the links, but both videos have been "removed by user" in the last 15 minutes...

adam

Who says the "little guys" cannot effect change?

I really wish an honest clued in company would get into small wind but the niche seems to just draw the vultures and bottom feeders.

Keeping it alive for posterity....

Next I will get a threat of legal action. Its been awhile since that has happened and I own nothing of value so its a waste to sue me. I also choose words carefully 

Too much fun for me now. Off to bed.

Tom

[KBwind]

TomW
I am not sure when things got confused. I am not and never was defending the claims of the company - I called them a farce - clearly bogus. Please continue doing as your doing. Scammers snakes cheats should all be put where they belong - in the garbage or jail. My last post was not sarcastic I am glad this is being done. I believe you may remember when I got in on it about two months ago and called that leaf looking VAWT a scam because it was. I would be interested in seeing how that guy is doing right now. I have seen this happen on a very large scale ( and it wasn't a ma n pa start up ) in my home town of Windsor which was ht hard after the auto industry collapsed. That windtronics turbine claimed great things, set-up shop and gave they city hope while no one ever checked their wild claims. But you guys caught these guys on their claims. I read the post, double checked the math and brought the info to the Engineering professor responsible for liason with the turbine company. But they are still around Selling ridiculous roof top turbines. Nothing else for me to say but I respectfully believe you have misinterpreted my meaning and ai will keep my nose out of these kinds of threads since they heat up very quickly. I do not appreciate the suggestion that I scam people and believe that words like that shouldn't be thrown around for a simple question about the interaction between small business and this forum. Thank you- good night

[richhagen]

I'm pretty sure that if I had a product from my website that I stated was a plug in resistance space heater that would generate 1500 Watts of heat while consuming less than one Amp at 120V AC single phase I would be given a bit of a rough go of it on an 'electric heater forum' if such existed.  I don't need to have the heater in hand to know it can't possibly perform as claimed. 

If someone posted about a device here and posted performance numbers of what the device actually did, I don't think they would have a rough time of it at all.  You will generally not find a more enthusiastic crowd for wind turbines than here.  Most of the folks who have built them know a thing or two about them, and if you make claims that are impossible by far they will realize it and will call you on it.

[TomW]

TomW
I am not sure when things got confused.

KB;

I was reacting to your "crucify" comment. Yes reacting not responding. I apologize if I was too harsh.

I think this forum has historically shown that we believe in the unvarnished truth. We are not anti commerce. Several good small companies interact here regularly and quite harmoniously. Midnite Solar, Royal Wind, Ghurd Heavy Industries to name a few. And you know why they get along?

Because they are completely and 100% honest. They deliver the goods as advertised.

That is what separates the scum from the trusted. Replace "Corporation" with "Small Wind Startup" in this graphic:


Tom