Author Topic: Connecting Multiple Ginnys (Read 7338 times)

wilfor03 · « **on:** December 12, 2011, 07:54:40 AM »

I have two 12v dc wind generators, set up and sort of running. I'm in a low wind area and both will chug out 4-8v dc alot, but neither very seldom hit above 13vdc. I've tried to do a search on here about hooking these up some way to try to combine the voltage together, but no luck yet! I remember (I think) reading something awhile back about hooking several small ones together but, alas, old age creeps in a lot now days. These are just hobby jobs/fun so far, so they're not critical to get going. Although it would be nice. I also have 360 watts of solar panels that keeps my batteries pretty much up to snuff. My whole system was put together as a back up for hard times when the grid goes down.
I appreciate the help, Folks........

Bill

tecker · « **Reply #1 on:** December 12, 2011, 08:25:19 AM »

This should be an easy fix with the generators in proximity to your solar install . Simply use a large 6 volt battery for each wind turbine and run the 12volts in parallel to the solar . Use an overload controller to dump load the added amperage with the solar .

wooferhound · « **Reply #2 on:** December 12, 2011, 09:29:24 AM »

I would hook your turbines in IRT (Individually Rectified Turbines)
Usually call this setup IRP for (Individually Rectified Phases)
It like like this . . . The coils would be turbines . . . You would only need 2, not 3 as shown . . .

TomW · « **Reply #3 on:** December 12, 2011, 09:41:28 AM »

As Woofer pointed out, simply connect the output from your turbine rectifiers in series then to the batteries. Absolutely the easiest and only requires wire and what you already have now. I would not suggest the battery idea posted earlier but it could work.

The capacitors in Woofers diagram would help, too, if you have or can find some of suitable ratings.

Good luck with it.

Tom

tecker · « **Reply #4 on:** December 12, 2011, 10:58:09 AM »

I have tried using Bridges in series and I can't get any power from this set up unless the coils are really topping out .If they are just matching cut the two bridges seem to feed back between the inductance . Charge controllers in series react in series kinda funny but if it is applied to a battery with some isolation between the loads IE a large diode the two batteries will boot the charge into another controller well . That leaves the problem on dumping off the excess power in high winds that can be solved by running some monitor to watch the dump and if it happens frequently adding some more storage .

Norm · « **Reply #5 on:** December 12, 2011, 11:10:24 AM »

Like Tom and Woof said.
Would be interesting too see how well this works, keep us posted on this.
Curious to know what the windspeed is when they are each putting out about 8 volts?
Norm

wilfor03 · « **Reply #6 on:** December 12, 2011, 01:59:35 PM »

Hey gang...appreciate the rapid help you guys are throwing my way (tecker, tomw, wooferhound, norm)

Just changed the wiring around and put both "ginnys" in series to the battery's. Wouldn't ya know it, the curse is here cuz I now want to see some wind, and there ain't NONE!!!!

Still need to hook up some more DC v-meters (digital) to monitor the two individual voltages to keep an eye on things. Bought five of em on flea-bay for $18. Had to wait for almost a week to get here, but it's well worth it. I'll definitely keep everybody posted, good or bad. Maybe somebody else out there wanting to do something similar (or crazy).
But, thanks everybody for helping.......

Bill

TomW · « **Reply #7 on:** December 12, 2011, 02:41:08 PM »

Quote from: wilfor03 on December 12, 2011, 01:59:35 PM

Wouldn't ya know it, the curse is here cuz I now want to see some wind, and there ain't NONE!!!!

I like most Irishmen but that darned Murphy is on my list of the "unliked".

Tom

whythehecknot · « **Reply #8 on:** December 12, 2011, 03:09:19 PM »

Certainly answers my questions about IRP

.
You know its funny, when before I had a wind turbine I used to hate the wind, especially when it came to fishing. But now I have a wind turbine in my back yard and now I cant wait for the wind to blow. Perspective is everything isnt it? Sitting here right now with heavy overcast sky's, no wind, and batts on the low side. Mmmm might have to start that blasted generator later tonight.
Anyway I have a water turbine project Ive been working on and would love to see what your outcome of IRT-ing does for voltage increase.

whythehecknot · « **Reply #9 on:** December 12, 2011, 03:25:40 PM »

P.S. I dont want to seem like Im highjacking this post but I do have one more question about IRP. Being a newby Im trying to walk softly here.... but Ive just have to know....
Will the above diagram on IRP still work with a stator wired in star? In other words it would mean that only one wire from each phase is going to the rectifiors, instead of the two like the diagram shows.

Rover · « **Reply #10 on:** December 12, 2011, 05:43:30 PM »

Yes, it will just fine ...

I prefer not to call that IRP though, more like just normal 3 phase. In my head I reserver IRP for bringing out both wires for each phase, phase count does not matter.

Rover

rossw · « **Reply #11 on:** December 12, 2011, 06:25:06 PM »

Quote from: Rover on December 12, 2011, 05:43:30 PM

Yes, it will just fine ...

I prefer not to call that IRP though, more like just normal 3 phase. In my head I reserver IRP for bringing out both wires for each phase, phase count does not matter.

Surely it'd be a hideous waste of parts though, at best, and if you used "the same" configuration (except one end of each coil was connected together) you'd be shorting out a bunch of diodes?

A 3-phase, full-wave rectifier only needs 6 diodes, and you leave the star point unconnected. Or am I missing something?

dnix71 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 12, 2011, 06:30:04 PM »

Why not use a dc-dc boost transformer after running each genny's output through a full wave bridge with a capacitor.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Buck-Boost-Step-Up-Step-Down-Module-3-35V-Out-1-25-30V-/270859180499?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f107719d3

This one won't handle much power, but your genny doesn't put out much either, according to you. You could put a fuse in line with the dc-dc converter to protect it from over current.

Rover · « **Reply #13 on:** December 12, 2011, 06:55:48 PM »

Ross is right... I didn't spend the time to go look at the diagram....shame on me

(it would still work but .. really not worth it)

All you really need is each of the phase wires occuping the AC post of a 3 phase bridge. AC/DC of the other posts.

or 2 full wave rectifiers ... using 2 AC posts of 1 one, and only 1 on the 2nd... parallel the DC with each other
or 3 full wave rectifiers ... each wire split into 2 to cover the 2 AC posts one each rectifier, then parallel

sorry for being a dufus

Rover

whythehecknot · « **Reply #14 on:** December 13, 2011, 01:11:46 PM »

Now its my turn to be the dufus here but still one more question. But first to clarify a little here. Isnt what you all have just described just your normal way of hooking up rectifiers to make DC, parallel connection of the pluses and negatives?? And isnt the diagram at the top something of a series connection as opposed to a parallel connection as would normally be done. Because that was the wow experience that I got when looking at it in series. In other words wouldnt it give you higher voltage hooked in series, or did I miss something that was said? Because truthfully to you guys this must all seem like kids stuff, but my brain is starting to sweat here $:-\$ .

jlt · « **Reply #15 on:** December 13, 2011, 01:44:48 PM »

If this Is a dc motor you will not be able to use a irp set up . You will only need a diode To keep it from draining your batterys.

rossw · « **Reply #16 on:** December 13, 2011, 01:55:19 PM »

Quote from: whythehecknot on December 13, 2011, 01:11:46 PM

Now its my turn to be the dufus here but still one more question. But first to clarify a little here. Isnt what you all have just described just your normal way of hooking up rectifiers to make DC, parallel connection of the pluses and negatives?? And isnt the diagram at the top something of a series connection as opposed to a parallel connection as would normally be done. Because that was the wow experience that I got when looking at it in series. In other words wouldnt it give you higher voltage hooked in series, or did I miss something that was said? Because truthfully to you guys this must all seem like kids stuff, but my brain is starting to sweat here $:-\$ .

Yes, the 3-phase wiring we've described is "standard", however you CANNOT series up the voltages per the top diagram with a star-connected (or delta-connected) alternator. You MUST have seperate start and ends for each winding, and each winding MUST be isolated.

tecker · « **Reply #17 on:** December 13, 2011, 01:56:38 PM »

That's what their talking about taking the higher potential from the stators of multiple alternators that won't cutin to the battery voltage individually with the bridges alone .

ruddycrazy · « **Reply #18 on:** December 13, 2011, 03:31:05 PM »

G'day Wilfer,
In your first post you did say you had DC motors as the generators and not 3 phase AC ones. What voltage and speed ratings are on the motors as this will give a rough guide on what you can expect from them. It could be you'll have to gear them up just to get any near 13V.

Also I did scan both of those pic's and didn't see ANY guy wires, maybe it's my eyes but anyway without guy wires those pv panels beside one genny looks like they are right in the firing line when the first real big wind comes up. You can make a 2 blade set and that should get the rpm up but then vibration will be an issue.

Regards Bryan

whythehecknot · « **Reply #19 on:** December 13, 2011, 05:08:50 PM »

Thanks guys for clearing all that up, it all makes perfect sense now to me

.
Now then to get back to the subject at hand. I would like to put my two cents worth in and say that I would agree 100% with Ruddycrazy with the twin bladed prop thing.You would get an increase in your TSR over a three bladed prop. This is actually an area Im pretty well aquanted with. I sorta have a thing for two bladed props, and well like Ruddycrazy did point out they do have a shimmering effect when the mill turns its directions, but not as bad as some would think. It all depends on how turbulent your winds are. It would be nice to see what your wind is like when you are getting 6 volts from the mill. Because in my opinion the only way that a two bladed prop is going to help much is if it takes more than 12 or 15 MPH winds to make voltage with your current three bladed prop. And one more thing that Im sure cant hurt and I dont think anyone has mentioned yet is to increase your tower height. In some cases just a little higher and bam your there.

wilfor03 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 13, 2011, 05:10:52 PM »

Hey Brian (ruddycrazy) and all.....

Got the 2 gennys set up in series w/blocking diode in the line. Also have a Digital Voltmeter on each of the outputs to see what each is doing. Only problem is still, NO WIND!!!
The mill on the tilt over tower is a rectified ECM running into the workshop (DC) and the small mill is a small servo motor which is also rectified in the workshop (DC). I just series'd em up in the workshop with the blocking diode (50A).

The tall tower is a tilt over type I made out of 2 3/4" thick wall pipe. Almost 24' to the top. It pivots on a 5/8" tempered steel rod. I also have 2 -1/4" steel straps on the mount for added security. I use a 1400lb boat winch to raise and lower the tower. Takes me about 2 minutes, by myself. You're right, no guy wires (yet). I think it will hold pretty good with only 19 lb of weight at the top. If I'm wrong, long ago I got used to having eggs on my head. (lol)

These are 4' pcv blades on here. They start up in hardly any breeze, and I have seen 15.3vdc for about a micro-second, then went back down to about 8vdc (average). Just not real breezy where I live, but by God, I'm gonna try to play. The small servo motor got up to about 9.5vdc and then dropped back. Its only up bout 15 feet. This is just too much fun, guys, to not play.

All I need now is the breezes to come to my house and I'll be happy!!!
Here's a couple more pictures I just took for ya........

wilfor03 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 13, 2011, 05:15:56 PM »

Small Mill: (Servo(2.5a)-4' PCV)

wilfor03 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 13, 2011, 05:21:20 PM »

Having a hell of a time getting this last one up on the server?

?/

This is the ECM w/4'PVC blades:

Bruce S · « **Reply #23 on:** December 14, 2011, 10:16:55 AM »

Some of the problems are the sizes were kinda over the 640x480 size.
I re-sized and then re-attached them for ya :-)
There are people who are on dial-up and need these limits for them to be able to see/download the pics
Thanks
Bruce S

wilfor03 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 14, 2011, 10:37:53 AM »

Quote from: Bruce S on December 14, 2011, 10:16:55 AM

Some of the problems are the sizes were kinda over the 640x480 size.
I re-sized and then re-attached them for ya :-)
There are people who are on dial-up and need these limits for them to be able to see/download the pics
Thanks
Bruce S

Thanks Bruce S.....I thought I had them small enough. Will make a sticky note for my forehead to post more ......thank you......

Bill

thirteen · « **Reply #25 on:** December 15, 2011, 05:29:28 AM »

I do not have a wind gen. So just looking at where things are setup. Could a person put up some sort of flare or fog in the air to see what the wind is doing near their genny? I just don't remember if anyone has mentioned doing that. It might be hard to do I just do not know. I was just wondering.

electrondady1 · « **Reply #26 on:** December 15, 2011, 10:37:07 AM »

that's an interesting idea thirteen, a smoke test

Jerry · « **Reply #27 on:** December 15, 2011, 11:14:09 AM »

Quote from: wilfor03 on December 13, 2011, 05:10:52 PM

Hey Brian (ruddycrazy) and all.....

Got the 2 gennys set up in series w/blocking diode in the line. Also have a Digital Voltmeter on each of the outputs to see what each is doing. Only problem is still, NO WIND!!!
The mill on the tilt over tower is a rectified ECM running into the workshop (DC) and the small mill is a small servo motor which is also rectified in the workshop (DC). I just series'd em up in the workshop with the blocking diode (50A).

The tall tower is a tilt over type I made out of 2 3/4" thick wall pipe. Almost 24' to the top. It pivots on a 5/8" tempered steel rod. I also have 2 -1/4" steel straps on the mount for added security. I use a 1400lb boat winch to raise and lower the tower. Takes me about 2 minutes, by myself. You're right, no guy wires (yet). I think it will hold pretty good with only 19 lb of weight at the top. If I'm wrong, long ago I got used to having eggs on my head. (lol) These are 4' pcv blades on here. They start up in hardly any breeze, and I have seen 15.3vdc for about a micro-second, then went back down to about 8vdc (average). Just not real breezy where I live, but by God, I'm gonna try to play. The small servo motor got up to about 9.5vdc and then dropped back. Its only up bout 15 feet. This is just too much fun, guys, to not play.

All I need now is the breezes to come to my house and I'll be happy!!!
Here's a couple more pictures I just took for ya........

Have you made any mods to the ECM? Its been my expiriance that ECMs with stock wiring scheem will produce 12v at very low rpm. It just happens that today I'm installing a stock star wired 1 hp ECM at 40ft. I will be using it at 48 volts.

Jerry

wilfor03 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 15, 2011, 02:55:35 PM »

[/quote]

Have you made any mods to the ECM? Its been my experience that ECMs with stock wiring scheem will produce 12v at very low rpm. It just happens that today I'm installing a stock star wired 1 hp ECM at 40ft. I will be using it at 48 volts.

Jerry

[/quote]

Yes, its not a stock ECM. Have the 3 phase rectumfiers in the brain cap on the back. It's only a 1/4hp and Ghurd did all my thinking for me. But, I haven't seen any sizable voltage out yet cuz "I ain't gots NO wind yet!"

We've got some rain forcast for today, so maybe some breezes shortly.

Don't know how I'd get a piece of burning rope up 25' to watch the "no wind" situations here. Wouldn't do much good. Keep us posted on your ECM you're putting up, Jerry. I thought the wiring on the ECM's had to be modified to get some ac output? Always learning, even at a later time in life.........c ya's
Bill

thirteen · « **Reply #29 on:** December 15, 2011, 04:39:08 PM »

electrondaddy: I was thinking again and with a small helium balloon and a smoke flare and some good string you could raise it up enough to get it to where you could watch it. It might take two people. You could make it go higher to find out where the best wind would be. Just a thought. Maybe Casper the Ghost could tell you but this is just a quick thought. It might make a difference for some to move there setup and maybe just give a person a better idea where to put things.

Jerry · « **Reply #30 on:** December 15, 2011, 07:54:34 PM »

I know with my group of small wind generators just 30 ft apart there is a difference. I figure its cause they are not very high. I've got 2 gennies that cut in easy at 5 mph. My anemometer is close to one of them.

When the anemometer read 5 mph the unit close to it read an amp or so while the other 5 mph starter is reading 0 amps. Sometimes that reverses. The unit 30ft away from the anemometer may be reading an amp or so while the anemometer and is close genny are reading 0 both mph and amps. Ground turbulence has a big influence in a short distance.

Jerry

wilfor03 · « **Reply #31 on:** December 28, 2011, 08:16:51 AM »

Made it through the holidays with no breezes till yesterday. Some gusts to 20mph here (weather people said). AND, both the gennys were screaming! All held together very well, and put out pretty impressive voltage (that's all I can measure), but I did see a definite rise in the system voltage (battery's), from 12.6v up to 13.5v. Who-Whoooo!!! So I know the amps were there for the battery's.

Heavy overcast so the solar wasn't doing very much (maybe 1.5a, at the most). Then bout 2pm, everything went back to normal! No wind.......I guess Murphy found my house again this soon after Christmas!!!

The series connections of the two (ECM & Servo) gennys worked very well. The ECM will crank a lot easier/sooner than the Servo. Reckon that's because of the minor "cogging" in the Servo. Maybe the height difference of the little tower, maybe all the above. All I know is, sure is fun playing with all this "stuff".

Thank you everybody for the help and advice on this project. And a Late "Merry Christmas" to all !!!!

Bill

wilfor03 · « **Reply #32 on:** December 28, 2011, 08:30:55 AM »

Quote from: thirteen on December 15, 2011, 05:29:28 AM

I do not have a wind gen. So just looking at where things are setup. Could a person put up some sort of flare or fog in the air to see what the wind is doing near their genny? I just don't remember if anyone has mentioned doing that. It might be hard to do I just do not know. I was just wondering.

Hey Thirteen...

Forgot to address the question/suggestion bout the fog/smoke at the Genny height.

Look at my pictures I posted earlier and you can see what I'm talking about.

I just use a piece of orange marker tape tied on the tail fin of the gennys. Just drill a small hole on the bottom of the tail fin, tie on a piece of tape. Wolla, done!! Works for me this way.

Doing this, you can definitely see what the wind is doing at that specific height. I can really see a wind difference between the 24' genny and the 15' genny.

Have a great day!!!

Bill

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Author Topic: Connecting Multiple Ginnys (Read 7338 times)