Chain driven ferrite magnet wind turbines

[Bio Diesel Man]

Hi All, I am new to this forum and have been looking at Chris Olson's turbines that he builds using ferrite /ceramic/ magnets instead of expensive neo,magnets.He also builds a chain case with oil bath gear and chain drives to turn the alternator fast enough to get real good output from these turbines. It looks real promising as the cost of the magnets are much cheaper than neos, and he is or seams to be getting more output from these turbines than the style that Huge Piggott talks about.. I am thinking about laying out a machine that uses this technology. Was wanting to get your input on this type of system,and anything along these lines... Thank You for your site ,and all the good information on it..  Bio Diesel Man  Duff Streeter

[REdiculous]

I doubt an oil bath is required if it's pre-lubed and sealed from the elements. Look at cheap dirt bikes....you might knock the biggest dirt-clods off with a hose once in a while, but how often do you really clean it all up and lube the chain?...how often do you replace the sprockets and chain?...


You might check out some electric bike projects because, at least mechanically, you're wanting to do the reverse.

[Bio Diesel Man]

Thanks for your input.. I thought about that a while and decided that the oil bath chain drive would really be needed as the wind turbine will probably go through as much use in 1 year, as what most motorcycles would in their entire lifetime. Also Chris Olson uses this type of unit and if it is lubed you get much less wear on the chain and also the sprockets.. I once had a turbine ,,chain drive,no oil bath,and it was a continous battle to keep the chain tightened from wear of the sprockes and the chain.. Just was wondering if anyone else had built a turbine with oil bath chain and sprocket drivetrain??  Also the fact that ceramic magnets don"t rust like neo. magnets do is another plus.. Chris is getting outstanding output from ferrite magnet generators set up that way.. Duff Streeter   Bio   Diesel Man

[REdiculous]

I just think an oil bath is overkill for a smallish DIY machine.

It may be turning more often but it won't be spinning that fast and won't be transferring that much power. I'd use cheap #25 sprockets and lube it every 6 months...I think that'd beat replacing oil once a year.

[REdiculous]

Oh, have you thought about toothed belts? It'd have to be a lot more efficient than chain in oil...

[ChrisOlson]

Oh, have you thought about toothed belts? It'd have to be a lot more efficient than chain in oil...

My turbine transmissions are 94.7% efficient at 4 kW input power, with most of the power loss in the extra set of bearings on the PTO shaft (compared to a direct drive that only has a mainshaft with one set of bearings).  Gilmer-style belts do not have the service life of a oil bath chain case and they require yet another bearing set in an idler to properly adjust the tension of the belt.

My Generac 6 kW standby generator has a 2,600 rpm V-twin engine driving the 3,600 rpm two pole generator with a gilmer belt.  I've gone thru two belts in that thing in only 450 hours due to pulley misalignment problems.  The engine is rubber mounted and it moves, while the generator does not, causing it to chew up belts.  If Generac doesn't come up with a fix pretty dang soon I'm going to build a oil bath chain case for that with a double row #40 chain in it.  That frickin' belt is $208 a whack and the third one has kevlar hair starting to grow on it already.
--
Chris

[Flux]

My experience with toothed belts was that they had to be drastically oversized to have a decent life. By having them that much oversized you increase the low wind losses. In normal use with normal loading the failure seems to be tooth stripping but on wind turbines the things will actually snap the belt during a severe overload in gusty winds.

Service factors for the tooth belt seems to have to be way higher than normal drives, such as  bad things like compressor duty. The same seems to be true of gears, normal industrial gearing with a good margin of service factor will have a very short life on a wind turbine.

I came to the same conclusion as Chris that the chain seems to be the best option in terms of efficiency and overload capability and it is more tolerant on centre distance than belts or gears and you can almost certainly include gearcase flexing in here as well.

I liked the idea of the Ramsey silent chain but I never got to try one as neos came and made my wound field machines redundant but ferrite again makes it well worth looking at speed increasing drives.

I am not prepared to even try an open chain in our climate but in some areas it may do ok but it seems almost pointless not trying for some basic simple oil bath to keep the wet and dust out.

Flux

[Bio Diesel Man]

Open chain systems are not good..I have been there and done that... They wear and stretch if they are not running in lube.. I used #40 chain  on mine and it just wasn"t a very good setup.. You could take the wind generator down every 2 months and it still would need to be tightened a little.. I was just wondering if anyone besides Chris Olson had built a machine with a chain drive running in oil bath.. I am getting ready to order my sprockets,chain,and bearings pretty soon.My machine will be 12 coils,with 16 ceramic  C 8 magnets, on each magnet rotor..  Chris is getting outstanding performance from his turbines using ceramic,/ferrite magnets,because he is running the generator at a higher R.P.M.,, than you   get from a direct drive unit.Plus the price of the ceramic magnets are a lot cheaper,and they don"t corrode like the  neos. will   . Duff Streeter    Bio Diesel Man

[REdiculous]

When I said toothed belt I was thinking like this...

Those RC motors can spin some serious rpms so any wear issues would come up pretty quick I think. He seems to sell a fair number of his "RC reduction units" and they aren't cheap. *shrug*


Unless you count chainsaws, I can't name anything with a chain in an oil bath.

[snowmass]

Oh, have you thought about toothed belts? It'd have to be a lot more efficient than chain in oil...

My turbine transmissions are 94.7% efficient at 4 kW input power, with most of the power loss in the extra set of bearings on the PTO shaft (compared to a direct drive that only has a mainshaft with one set of bearings).  Gilmer-style belts do not have the service life of a oil bath chain case and they require yet another bearing set in an idler to properly adjust the tension of the belt.

My Generac 6 kW standby generator has a 2,600 rpm V-twin engine driving the 3,600 rpm two pole generator with a gilmer belt.  I've gone thru two belts in that thing in only 450 hours due to pulley misalignment problems.  The engine is rubber mounted and it moves, while the generator does not, causing it to chew up belts.  If Generac doesn't come up with a fix pretty dang soon I'm going to build a oil bath chain case for that with a double row #40 chain in it.  That frickin' belt is $208 a whack and the third one has kevlar hair starting to grow on it already.
--
Chris

Sorry to break in, but just payed $3,650.00 for the ecogen 6 kw. 40 hours and starting to notice a flicker in the LEDs. Let me know if you find a fix. Thanks

[Larsmartinxt]

What about a serpentine style belt?

[ChrisOlson]

nless you count chainsaws, I can't name anything with a chain in an oil bath.

Engine timing chains.  Skid loader final drives.  Motor grader final drives.  4 x 4 pickup transfer cases.  I could on and on, but you get the idea.
--
Chris

[REdiculous]

I guess I'm gonna have to put up or shut up, huh? I suppose I can use my ebike to make a windmill...

It won't be in the 4kw class, but hopefully I can get some decent power from the treadmill motor - it makes decent power on the bike and it'll be way more comparable than using the piddly 250w motor the bike came with.

If I can friction-drive the wheel without losing too much power then I won't have to pull the bike apart...that'd be neat..

[snowmass]

All chain drives mentioned run vertical. Do any come to mine that run horizontal, bathed in oil?

[ChrisOlson]

Every Detroit-built V-8 engine that I've ever seen (except the Ford 427 SOHC) has the crank on the bottom and the cam on the top of the engine timing set.
--
Chris

[REdiculous]

I've got a hub. I've got a plan. If I can steal a short tower pipe I'll be 95% of the way there. Gotta wait till payday to get the welding gas. I'll start a new diary thread when I can get some stuff together.

[Bio Diesel Man]

Hi Guys, I got my chain, sprockets ,bearings, hubs for the large sprocket.Now waiting for the  hubs for the magnet rotors. Once I get them, I will have some magnet rotors cut out and hopefully get started on my oil bath chain driven turbine.  Just had a major operation so that is slowing me down right now..I will let you all know how I make out with this project. The magnet rotors will be aprox. 20 1/2 inches in diameter,with 16, Grade 8 ceramic magnets 1 1/2 wide 4 inches long and 1 inch thick.  the  stator will have 12 fairly large coils  in it.  Will have to do some experimenting when it comes to winding the coils to come up with an acceptable coil for this size turbine. I would like to see 3 KW  or even top out at 4KW if possible..  Chris could probably give me some good pointers on some of this stuff.. I think this chain driven geared  design will be a good setup for people that don"t want to spend that much money for neo,magnets,and ceramics don"t have the corossion problems either.. Any comments are always welcome..  Duff/  Bio Diesel Man 

[Bio Diesel Man]

Hi Guys,,, Back from the hospital and getting started on my chain driven oil bath wind turbine. Got part of the chaincase done the other day and hoping to get the magnet rotors cut out soon. Will try to finish up the chaincase and get the magnet rotors going  here as time allows..Anyone else out there working on a turbine like this,,?? with C8 ceramic magnets or is it just Chris Olson ,and now me doing this sort of build.. By the way if it wasn"t for Chris and his new design I to would probably be making a Hugh Piggott turbine clone too..  Anyway was just wondering if there were anyone else thinking along these lines.  Thanks Duff Streeter  Bio Diesel Man

[GoVertical]

Hi, I added a 1to 7 transmission to my project. I am still testing, so I do not how long the auto timing belts will last. Just throwing in my two cents. Hope to see some photos of your project.

[Bio Diesel Man]

Going ahead with my chain driven geared wind turbine. I am a welder fabricator///with the shop tools to build a turbine like this,, so I am machining the gearcase now and hope to figure out how to take some pics,as I build the turbine..I am not to savvy when it comes to the computer and downloading pictures,but will have to take the time to learn I guess. I would like to share this build with anyone interested,and would like any comments on it from all who are interested in      building a unit too.Also special thanks to Chris Olson for his work with these types of turbines.I see great advantages to this design using the ferrite/ceramic magnets.. The great thing about the ferrites is the fact that they have very little problems with corrosion,thus making for a reliable long lasting alternator..        Thanks for this great forum..  Duff Streeter  Bio Diesel Man

[snowmass]

Oh, have you thought about toothed belts? It'd have to be a lot more efficient than chain in oil...

My turbine transmissions are 94.7% efficient at 4 kW input power, with most of the power loss in the extra set of bearings on the PTO shaft (compared to a direct drive that only has a mainshaft with one set of bearings).  Gilmer-style belts do not have the service life of a oil bath chain case and they require yet another bearing set in an idler to properly adjust the tension of the belt.

My Generac 6 kW standby generator has a 2,600 rpm V-twin engine driving the 3,600 rpm two pole generator with a gilmer belt.  I've gone thru two belts in that thing in only 450 hours due to pulley misalignment problems.  The engine is rubber mounted and it moves, while the generator does not, causing it to chew up belts.  If Generac doesn't come up with a fix pretty dang soon I'm going to build a oil bath chain case for that with a double row #40 chain in it.  That frickin' belt is $208 a whack and the third one has kevlar hair starting to grow on it already.
--
Chris

Chris, Where did you find the belt for your Generac 6 kW... Thanks

[Bio Diesel Man]

Hi Everyone       Just got my magnet rotors cut out today. They are 20 1/2 inches in diameter,and 1/2 inch thick.they should make a good rotor as they are very strong,,,no flexing in these rotors. Also turned out the center holes for the shaft  hubs ,so I can weld them in place..Once I get the hubs welded on I will set up the lathe and check each rotor for runout and if need be put them in my 50 ton press to straighten out any warped sections of these rotors.Once everything is trued up I should be ready to mount the rotors on the generator shaft , and also latout where the magnets will be attached to each rotor..   I hope to get a picture or two along the way.. Duff,,   Bio Diesel Man ..

[CraigM]

Bring on the pic's! Would love to “see” how this build comes together for you. As demonstrated by Chris O. chain drive makes a lot of sense when using ferrite magnets. Even a chain drive with a simple sheet metal enclosure and plenty of chain lube would last many months before servicing is required. I can see the possibility of really expanding on this design and making if simple enough for most do it yourself-ers.

Good to see someone exploring a less traveled path.

Good luck with your build,
Craig

[Bio Diesel Man]

Thanks Chris, For your interest in this type of wind turbine.  I will try to take some pics., as I work  on   this turbine. I am not very computer smart,,, so will have to get someone to help me with the pictures..  That being said,,this machine will be pretty big and heavy, as I have a 100 foot Rohn tower to put it on once it is built,  so as not to worry about being able to use the turbine once it is done..I decided to go with a large chaincase made from 1/4 inch wall by     12 inch by 4 inch rectangular tube. Inside the case will be a 54 tooth sprocket that drives a smaller 20 tooth sprocket.So the turbine generator will be turning aprox 2.70 times faster than the turbine blades.. So if the blades speed is say 400 RPM  than the generator RPM will be aprox. 1080..  The magnet rotors are 20.5 " Dia.. with each having 16 C8 ceramic/ ferrite magnets that are 1" thick by 1.5" wide by4" long.. So I am hoping to get somewhere between 4 and 5 KW out of this unit when it is done..But just guessing on that right now..  Also the shafts for the blades, and the generator are 1 1/2 " diameter,so as to be able to easily handle the weight and prop thrust forces the machine will incounter..Gotta go for now but will try to keep you posted as time goes on.. Bio Diesel Man