Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.

[Tritium]

They are called SLI GT 110 batteries. (They are 110 amp hour batteries each)

I plan to wire the second set in series to get 12v and then wire the 4 batteries together in parallel to maintain my 12v system and double my storage capacity in my shed's generator.
what is that...440 amp hours total?

220 amp hours at nominal 12V. You would have to wire them all in parallel for 6V nominal to have 440 amp hours.

Thurmond

[fabricator]

Jeez O Pete, all the guy has to do is clamp it to a rectifier and battery, go to harbor freight and buy a $25 dolllar non contact tachometer and he'd have that number in a couple seconds.
This thing is gonna get so trashed it's gonna be epic, could we at least see a picture of the spark? ROTFLMAO.

[tanner0441]

Hi

Steadfast.. Any chance you could  put a photo up of an aerial view your place from google earth so we can see what other trees you have.  I am not convinced that at 30 ft in your location it's going to perform, 12V open circuit at 100 RPM the speed will be up and down like a yo yo. There is insufficient mass in your blades to smooth out the changes in wind speed, while your waiting for your alternator put a little DC motor with a set of blades about a foot, someone on here uses a 3 blade  model model plane prop, you will see how rapidly the wind speed changes. Or your weather station sender.

Brian.

[ChrisOlson]

I asked what the cut in was with a resistance load of 12 volts… He said that he does not have those numbers yet because he has been busy building it…  He said it does  produce 12 volt at 100RPM with no resistance. And that it creates an impressive electric arc at 150RPM which is a good sign of amps.

Steadfast, what concerns me here is that this guy doesn't know what he's doing and he's giving you a line of BS.  Before I build or wind a generator I already know what the cut-in speed is, and what the ampacity is.  You don't throw it together and then see what you get.  An "impressive electric arc @ 150 rpm which is a good sign of amps" is like saying "the blades really crank".  It don't mean s&*t.
--
Chris

[Steadfast]

 
These seem to be the best Images I can get...

[Mary B]

The level of rudeness I am seeing here is like a bunch of 12 year olds. Everyone has to start somewhere and learn. We learn from mistakes and the childish posts are really getting old.

Lots of trees, you are not going to see much output unless you get above that treeline.

[ChrisOlson]

The level of rudeness I am seeing here is like a bunch of 12 year olds. Everyone has to start somewhere and learn. We learn from mistakes and the childish posts are really getting old.

Yeah, well the deal is, how many wind turbines you ever built?  I've built lots of them and posted probably a dozen different builds on this forum over the years.  It's nice that a newbie to wind power is enthused about it.  But when said newbie is being "taken for a ride" by an unscrupulous junk peddler, it's time to call it like it is.

I suspect this Tony, or whatever his name is, already has Steadfast's money and Steadfast still has no product.  But he's gotten several lines of BS related to everything from elliptical magnets to "still working on it".  Steadfast could get SOME power with his poor location if the turbine was designed right.  But strapping bent pieces of aluminum "that really crank" on a Red Delco that cuts in at 100 rpm is not going to cut it.  We've all been telling him that.  And some of us have the EXPERIENCE to back it up.

If Steadfast is happy just because the blades go around and he gets a few milliamps from it, then all is well.  But I know that even with his poor location and short tower he could harvest 300-400 watts at times.  But he sure as hell ain't gonna' get it with the Red Delco and bent aluminum blades unless this Tony sees the light and that thing is spinning at at LEAST 280 rpm before it makes it's first .01 amps.

I give up.
--
Chris

[Steadfast]

Lots of trees, you are not going to see much output unless you get above that treeline.

I hear ya...  BUT... we have a mast length ordenance of only 40ft max...   

[Steadfast]

Chris:

I have a set of 7 foot span blades I fully intend on trying...

If you know of a place where I can buy a better PMA... let me know...
If you want to make me one that will work better in my low wind area...  name your price...
(I can always mail you my magnets to bring that price down as well)

you see,
I have learned enough about this process to except the fact
that I am seriously lacking the time, tools, and technical skills
and mostly the confidence to embark on the long journey of figuring out how to build a Homebrew PMA. 


Chris... I am serious about that proposal...  how serious???

 
Yeah...that's right... I just called you...and I left a mesage on your machine too!
And
I'll call you again... If you don't call me back first!

.
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[fabricator]

Maria, it's all been done before with the same results we will see here, why start in the trash can where hundreds of other break through delcos have ended up? Why not start at a spot others have proven to be worth while?

[tanner0441]

Hi

Before you have a go at someone trying to help read the entire thread. What was being done at the beginning was dangerous, we have come on from that,t the guy now has a small viable mast, a hell of a lot more knowledge than he started with and the ability to recognise to some extent what he doesn't know, and what to ask.

I will not comment on turbine design, I have never designed one, but I have over many years built masts and worked on commercial masts mainly for PMR radio antennas, and the wind loading on those is lower than a turbine but they still bend and colapse in big winds.  I have also played with car alternators and found them a waste of time because they are designed to spin very fast.

I agree with Chris's comments on the turbine rating, 12V at 100 RPM open circuit with a big arc at 150 RPM unless he is building an arc welder it says nothing.

I have been on this board for several years and apart from the mast issues I made a lot of the mistakes Steadfast has made, and taken the crap from those who know better.  Also some of the later criticisms are not aimed at Steadfast but the guy building his turbine, who if he is in business selling wind turbines should at least appreciate the theory behind them and be able to offer meaningfull specification details.

Brian

[CraigM]

Steadfast,
As much as I'd love to see (entertainment value) what Tony and the Red Delco of Hurricane Wind Power can do I think it's time to consider building your own PMA that will match your 7 foot blades. Seems to me this is where you're eventually going to end up anyway. Darn near everyone has been telling you the Delco is a waste of your time and money and I don't suppose they're wrong.

I can offer CAD service if needed for magnet and coil layout patterns in pdf format.

CM

[ChrisOlson]

I talked to Steadfast on the phone and I think I can help him out.  I got an old turbine head that's been hanging on my shop wall for 4-5 years with a 12 pole, 9 coil three phase axial on it:




I am donating this generator to his cause.  The stator is wound with 45 turns of 15 AWG and measures .68 ohms wired wye.  The rotors are 10" with 1/4" thick wedge magnets.  It's rpm/volt with the air gap set where it is now is 12.2 (rpm/DC volt).  With the air gap opened up this generator would work fine with a set of Otherpower 6 or 7 foot blades on it.  If I open the air gap on it so the rpm/volt is up to 20 it will reach 13 volts @ 260 rpm (nice for 6 foot blades) and 35 open DC volts @ 700 rpm.

(35-14.5) / .68 = 30 amps at 700 rpm, or 435 watts.  About perfect for a nice set of 6 foot wood blades.

Steadfast can cut the offset down to whatever he wants and build his own tail for it.

I searched thru some old stuff and by gully I found the rear plate for the blade hub for it:



All it needs is blades bolted to it and a new front plate made for it, which Steadfast can handle I'm sure.

I'll reset the air gap and rpm/volt to 20, take the mainshaft out so it can be boxed up, and it'll be on its way to North Carolina where it can do something useful instead of hanging on my shop wall.
--
Chris

[fabricator]

Thank God! And I'm sure Tony or Tommy or Todd will be relieved also. LOL.

[fabricator]

In that low wind zone I'd cut the entire offset out, leave about an inch between the yaw tube and the main shaft.

[Steadfast]

And the second set of 6 volt batteries is now installed...
Wired 2 up in series with both sets wired in parallel...

[ChrisOlson]

Steadfast, here's what an axial generator looks like disassembled:

This is the outside gen rotor - it's 12 pole with wedge magnets on it:



This is the stator:



I don't have any photos of the inside of the stator above, but this is a different one for a 16 pole generator so you can see the coils in it and how they're laid out when it was being built





And finally, this is your other generator rotor:



--
Chris

[Steadfast]

  OH...MY...GOD!
Chris.... You just blew my mind with your generosity!!!
What an I possibly say about THIS!!!!
Ummmm...WOW... you guys must really want to help me out here...

I was incredibly intimidated by the prospect of building one of these by Scratch.
Now I am going to be gifted with the opportunity to stand on the shoulders you technical Giants!

Thank you sooo much Chris...
I will begin a new educational string discussing the new turbine build with your generator as it's heart beat; even as I close out this one with Tony's PMA data and videos logged on it....

Fab... you crack me up man....
Just because Chris has stepped up beyond my wildest wishes, does not mean TONY is off the hook... I still have the light rig already made and Tony's experimental PMA is still paid in full and on its way...  No...Tony is not off the hook! He will still have his PMA fully tested, filmed and the results documented. For better or worse... and I am still "for him" and hope it is for the better. Besides I gave him my word I would do so, and I am a man of my word.

[fabricator]

And just so you know Olson is a world famous turbine builder.

[ChrisOlson]

Steadfast's project has turned into a demonstration.  These eBay sellers that pedal aluminum blades with bent tips and converted Delcos with 110V plugs hangin' out of 'em need to be showed where the bear craps in the woods.

First, Steadfast (assuming he gets his ReDelco) is going to show us how to trickle charge a cell phone battery with wind power.  Then, he's going toss up a different turbine with my generator and a set of DanB's blades on it and show us how to CHARGE a battery BANK with wind power.

All you have to do is set back with a 12-pack and watch.
--
Chris

[fabricator]

BTW, those terminals should have crimped on lugs not those bolt on things, I always crimp and solder my lugs.

[ChrisOlson]

In that low wind zone I'd cut the entire offset out, leave about an inch between the yaw tube and the main shaft.

Fab, I talked to Steadfast on the phone today and even though he lives in a poor wind zone and has a questionable site he still gets hurricane season winds from time to time.  In a decent thunderstorm with a set of Otherpower blades on the generator I'm sending him it will hit 50+ amps running dead on in the wind.

The windings in the stator are only AWG 15.  He needs the internal resistance in the stator, plus probably some additional line resistance (like using 12 gauge down the tower) to make it really run in the higher winds.  The line resistance and internal stator resistance won't hurt it at all in the lower winds.  But AWG 15 is getting pushed at 20 amps RMS continuous per phase.  So it needs a functional furling system to both limit top end power in thunderstorm winds, plus reduce the load on his tower in stronger winds.

When I send him the bare generator frame and he builds the rest of the turbine I'm sure he'll be asking questions on the proper offset, tail hinge angle and tail weight for proper furling at 30+ mph.

He still wants the turbine to be a lightweight.  So I'm going to cut the heavy frame off it and shorten the mainshaft and tube to try to get the raw weight of the generator and bearing frame, with the shaft, down to 25-30 lbs.  I'm going to recommend around 3-4" of offset but he can build that into his yaw shaft frame as he sees fit.

Edit:
I was looking thru my stator collection and I got another stator here with only 30 turns of 12 AWG in it for 10" rotors:



With this stator, it would be burn out proof with 6 foot blades and no furling at all, even in a hurricane.  It would need about one ohm of line resistance to get it to perform in higher winds, though, because the internal resistance of this stator is so low it would just stall the blades otherwise.

Which stator do you want?
--
Chris

[Steadfast]

Because a furling system not only safgaurds the turbine from high wind gusts, but also has been shown to give the turbine the ability to turn much more quickly in shifting winds, all my birds will have one... In my wind area a nimble turbine is vital and that sinsitivty to shifting winds is my main concern.

The new stator looks great.
how much potintial power generation copacity am I sacrificing for the extreamly important weight loss??? If it is a negligible loss, then YES by all means, let's go lighter weight. The word we must be focused on in an area 1 wind zone is "nimble".  With that in your mind I must completely yeild to the extent of your past experience and ask this:  what would you do if you were me?

[Steadfast]

As for the blades... We still need to see who has a set to sell me... in my low wind area I would think I need as much blade area to catch as much wind as possible. Could you call your friend DanB and ask him what he may have in wood blades laying around the shop to sell to my cause I will email Dan Funk and ask him what he might have.

What kind of blades are we asking about... 6ft spans or 7ft spans?

[ChrisOlson]

I was thinking 6 foot blades.

You are sacrificing no power potential based on weight.  The 30 turn stator has an internal resistance of .25 ohm and will reach 13.0 volts @ 300 rpm.  That's 23 rpm for every DC volt.

If you use 6 foot blades you'll want to see 700 rpm at least in the higher winds to have a good "match" between your blades and generator.  So I'll go over that and explain how that works.

You see above that I know the resistance of my stator and I know how many rpm's this things takes to reach the target cut-in voltage.  From that I know the rpm/volt.  Hence, at any speed I can tell you what the open voltage is.  At 700 rpm we will have 700 / 23 =  30.4 open DC volts.

However, the voltage at your batteries is only going to be 14.5.  This is where ohm's law comes in handy.  Amps = volts / ohms  If we take the difference between the open voltage and loaded voltage and divide it by the resistance, it yields the amps (before line and rectifier losses) from the stator.

So we have (30.4 - 14.5) / .25 = 63.6 amps.  63.6 amps x the 14.5 volts = 922 watts.

Now, this looks like a pretty impressive generator.  Right?  But generators are not 100% efficient.  Part of the input power to them is converted to heat.  How much heat?  Well, more ohm's law stuff.  The heat dissipated in the stator winding is given by the current squared times resistance.  63.6² x .25 = 1,011 watts lost to heat!  The total power required to turn this generator at 700 rpm therefore becomes the sum of the actual output at the loaded voltage plus the loss, which is 922 + 1,011 = 1,933 watts input power to the shaft.

Now you go back and look at your blades.  A decent set of 6 foot blades running at 6-7 TSR @ 1,100 ft elevation in 30 mph wind can develop around 1,100 watts at the shaft.

So what do we have?  We have 1,100 watts available input power on a generator that requires 1,933 input.  Not even close.  Your poor little 6 foot blades will come up against hard stall and this turbine will be a dead horse with that low resistance stator because the blades can't make enough power to turn it at the required speed.

You can "fix" this by putting some resistance in the line and dissipating power in the resistor, which will cause the turbine generator to run at much higher voltage than the true loaded voltage, hence increasing the power efficiency of the generator by increasing it's operating voltage and reducing the amount of amps coming from the winding.  But you will not get any gains into the battery where it really counts with this kludged up "fix".

So in the end, this generator is too powerful for 6 foot blades and it won't work.  The 45 turn one with 15 AWG wire is a better "match" to available shaft power.

And that, in a nutshell, is how you match the blade power to the load.
--
Chris

[fabricator]

The 30 turn stator is what you want man, smoke proof is worth a lot, Chris prolly has a set of fibergalss blades he can sell you, will those blades work on that machine Chris?

[fabricator]

Or you could put a set of these torque monsters on it. http://www.royalwindandsolar.com/pricing.html

[ChrisOlson]

The smallest set of glass blades I got in stock is 3.2 meters (10.5 feet).  Steadfast would have to build a new tower to handle a rotor that size.  He wants a small, lightweight turbine.  Small and light weight actually gets back to the roots of where all the homebrew stuff got started.  They're fun and relatively inexpensive, and don't require sinking thousands in a tower.  A set of 6 foot Otherpower blades is what he needs.

I could carve him a set but I don't have time at the present with all my other projects.  I think the Dan's should be able to help him out with a set of blades, or maybe somebody has a set they have carved that they will sell him.
--
Chris

[Steadfast]

The smallest set of glass blades I got in stock is 3.2 meters (10.5 feet).  Steadfast would have to build a new tower to handle a rotor that size.  He wants a small, lightweight turbine.  Small and light weight actually gets back to the roots of where all the homebrew stuff got started.  They're fun and relatively inexpensive, and don't require sinking thousands in a tower.  A set of 6 foot Otherpower blades is what he needs.

I could carve him a set but I don't have time at the present with all my other projects.  I think the Dan's should be able to help him out with a set of blades, or maybe somebody has a set they have carved that they will sell him.
--
Chris

I have not heard back from either of the Dans yet...

Until we first hear from them,
what do you think of these blades that Fab suggested?

Or you could put a set of these torque monsters on it. http://www.royalwindandsolar.com/pricing.html

The price is a mere $150.00

[ChrisOlson]

A Royal Wind GOE222 two blade rotor would definitely work.  Those blades would give you excellent low wind startup and very good torque with high rpm.  They have been used on Winco Winchargers since the 1930's.  And the original Whirlwind turbines (the predecessor to the Whisper), built in Duluth, Minnesota used a two-blade GOE222 rotor.

Two blade rotors can exhibit a cyclic vibration problem during yaw, however, and that may be a little hard on your tower.  At only 6 feet in diameter it wouldn't be as significant as some of the 4 meter two-blade GOE222's I've flown.  But at medium speed in the 500 rpm range it would shake your tower all the way to its foundation, and put the test to the guy wires when the turbine yaws.
--
Chris

[Steadfast]

I believe that $150 price is not for, a set of 3 blades, but rather for EACH blade... OUCH! 
I also believe that price is for A Blade which is 6ft long by itself and which creates a 12 ft span...

I have left a message checking that theory?

I saw a video on them and the GOE222 Rotor blades are each, 6 foot long...
I need a set of 3 foot long blade for a sweep of 6 feet.
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.
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[birdhouse]

steadfast-
do you own a chainsaw?  doesn't have to be a big boy.  i found it super easy to rough out blades with a chainsaw and a jig.  once all your calcs are done, and your blanks are prepped, the jigs (2) can be made in under an hour, and roughing out three blades takes about the same amount of time. 

using a 24grit flap wheel on the angle grinder gets you from roughed out to pretty nice looking blades in another hour, then some sanding with a palm sander gets you finished blades in another hour. 

with this method, blades can be finished in a long afternoon. 

just a money saving thought.

adam

[hiker]

these were easy blades to make --three square pieces of plywood for a hub--cut out- four mounts
for the blades-or just three for a three blader..then make some angle cuts for the blades to mount into--bolt down....as for blades i like ceder ..made mine from fence planks..just carve a airfoil on the
back side..and you could feather out the front of the blades if you want for a faster blade...