Light Wind Heavy Weight Turbine Project - as I build it.

[klsmurf]

This thread is as frustrating as trying to explain A Science Fiction Movie to my 82 year old mother  who is now age 3 in her second childhood. She just can't get the concept and never attempts to learn on her own. Just endless questions to which the answers are ignored unless they fit what she wants to hear. 

Thurmond

   I understand what you're saying! To me, It's like the car crash in the other lane. you just gotta look!

I'm still pretty new here, only a couple years, but it seems to me a whole bunch of reading should have been done before any of this was started.
 There's a lot of advice being suggested, but there may not be an understanding of Why?

Putting a working turbine on, and raising it on, a manufactured tower requires multiple engineering type disciplines.

I admire your tenacity, Steadfast, but I wish you would slow down, I fear your heading for another disaster.

[Mary B]

3 sections of rohn 25, the tilt base plate would really be easiest and safer. typical guy wire thickness is 1/8th or 3/16 unless you are going really high. That is for the guy wires NOT the gin pole cable that is going to have a heavier load on it.

[tanner0441]

OK one step at a time... Your mast at the base is 4ins... Your ground pivot is 4ins high... unless you drill the mast very near the bottom and cut a tight radius on it you will not raise or lower it, because it will bind on your steel base plate. If you can picture that in your head and work out what you have to do to get round it you can move on.

As for what size cable you need for your winch, read back on here and the sums are there. Also can you see the gin pole weight does not count? Because it starts off in a vertical position and as it moves down it adds to the pull force of the winch.

If all the questions are answered for you without you being able to work things out for yourself should you get a sudden problem or things go wrong in the middle of the night, you will have to be able to sort it there and then.

Brian

[Frank S]

I would like to see him raise the tower with only a 60 lb bag of sand before he hangs the turbine on it. this way he can test his guy wire lengths and tension. the shed being in the way is going to be problematic at best. Dropping a bag of sand to the ground will not hurt anything if his anchor point gives way or he see that his guy wires are wrong.
 as to the accepted policy of having a gin pole 50% of the tower height I have seen 50 foot utility poles fitted with double cross beams insulators and all the fittings and the transmission wires hanging on them   raised by a 10 ft fixed gen pole with the butt of the utility pole against a shoe horn box fitted to the bore hole on the side of a mountain using nothing more than a 6 part block & tackle and 1" hemp rope passed through the point sheave. the anchor points often were trees or boulders/
 get yourself a copy of the Army-Riggers-rigging handbook TM5-125 it was the bible for linemen & corp of engineers  back in the day.
  I'll have to fire up 1 of my old computers to see if I have it scanned

[tanner0441]

Frank

That was with people who knew what they were doing, we have all done things that shouldn't be done but you can mentally go through the whole operation in your head you know where it can be a case of pull harder or run like hell.  I would like to see him do a full size wood mock up of the bottom 3ft of his mast, a 4in high flange will not leave a lot of metal round the pivot bolt on the flange or the mast.  I sugested a dummy run with a bag of sand, a dummy run first with nothing just to check the lengths and angles, it would pee me off if half way up the cable started spilling on the winch spool, or the guys finished about 6ins from the anchor point.  If the steel ground plate is not level in all directions the mast will have a good lean at 30ft.

Brian

[Frank S]

Frank

That was with people who knew what they were doing, we have all done things that shouldn't be done but you can mentally go through the whole operation in your head you know where it can be a case of pull harder or run like hell.  I would like to see him do a full size wood mock up of the bottom 3ft of his mast, a 4in high flange will not leave a lot of metal round the pivot bolt on the flange or the mast.  I sugested a dummy run with a bag of sand, a dummy run first with nothing just to check the lengths and angles, it would pee me off if half way up the cable started spilling on the winch spool, or the guys finished about 6ins from the anchor point.  If the steel ground plate is not level in all directions the mast will have a good lean at 30ft.

Brian

I guess it is because my company has to hire a crane on average of 20 times a week and some of my young engineers have less time in the field than a Mayfly, that I have to stress to them before I send them to watch over a pick  of how easily things can go wrong & get someone killed when lifting large or odd shaped objects

[CraigM]

I really need an answer... I am buying tomarrow...

Don't rush yourself SF, it seems this is what gets you into trouble.

There's a reason - haste makes waste, and the tortoise beats the hare.

[Steadfast]

Guys I understand why my gin should be 15 ft...and I agree...
But I MUST put my hope in Franks statement.
It is not stupidity or stuborness that makes me resist this 50% gin rule.

It was the original placement of my shed. (which back in the day my neighbor was cool with)
when I started I nievely assumed I was making a light system that (according to the county regs)
only needed to be attached to the shed at one 10 ft point. I know better now.



Now, the foundation is poured!
The back leg of my winch stand is litterally ON THE PORPERTY LINE...
forcing my gin to be 8ft.

My neighbor is cool with this, but has made it clear, "not one inch over!"
Because he "may or may not want to build a chain link fence someday".

If you guys wanna come over to my place and physically dig up my 1200 pound concrete base, and move it 7ft deeper into my property, go for it.
I'll buy the beer and pizza...  But I am not doing it...ALONE...

now, My Homebrew book shows photos of the gin being 30% of the height.
I measured the pictures to be sure...
.
.

[kensue49]

Could you take some more pipe and make triangle to the gin pole to increase the strength?
If it go's the the end of the gin pole wouldn't that help the stress on the gin pole?
I don't know, I am just asking.
Kenneth

[Steadfast]

if you look at the picture above that is what I did...thinking the same thing...

I can do it again too... several times over...
God knows I have A LOT of SCRAP...now! 

[tanner0441]

So for the first time we find out why your winch is where it is.  That though throws up a whole new can of worms. From your mast base to your boundry is say 8ft for the gin pole and and 2ft for your winch base, and 30ft for your tower, I won't mention the blades.... If your tower comes down in the wrong direction, 20ft of it can be on your neighbours property.  Not Good for neighbour relations, especially if he is standing within that 20ft.

Again though you did not mention the comments I made about the pivot bearings and the mast not being able to pivot. There is no reason why you can't use a shorter gin pole it means you need a bigger pull to raise your mast.  Because this is the first time you have done this and have a poor grasp of mechanics people are telling you how it should be done for safety, and to slow down and think things through.

Brian

[tanner0441]

Kensue

The cables from the Gin pole to the mast make the triangle, the gin pole is just a way of changing the direction of the pull, if the winch was 20ft in the air you would not need a gin pole. Once the angle of the mast is more than about 30degs you don't need a gin pole.  The gin pole prevents an over centre situation arising.

Brian

[kensue49]

Thanks.
I think I got it now.
Is the major stress on the upright when the vertical passes 45 degrees?
Kenneth

[Steadfast]

go to my other build thread and see what happened to my 1st mast... and its foundation...
before I knew what a Gin pole was... 

[Frank S]

In this situation the gin pole is fixed to the tower not fixed in the vertical position with a point sheave . So since the pull will always be on the gin pole all the way until the tower is vertical and there is no possibility of having both side guys in tension from ground to vertical. we need to think about a guy wire mounted on top of the shed left lose while the tower in laying down this guy will need to be rigged with a slack pull from a second location this will assist to keep the tower from falling sideways as it is being raised.  additionally the guy wires opposite to the winch need to be adjusted so they become taught as the tower reaches vertical to prevent it from going past the vertical position.
 set the gin pole @ about 75 degrees relative to the tower this will leave you with some distance from the winch when at full vertical. giving you space for the rigging of the snatch bloc/s
 find the sketch since I did this in 2 d it does not show the front and shed side guys .
 this is no different than stepping a mast  on a small sail boat where you have to use the boom for the main sail as the gin pole a few ropes to help hold  the slack out of the cables while standing it pull here  slack off there go slow keep everything taught except for the lines over the bow .
 I've watched an 84 year old man step a 44 ft mast by himself in 10 minutes.

[fabricator]

That 84 year old man had a clear understanding of what he was doing.

[JW]

Pink Floyd - One Slip Live at Omni Atlanta 1987
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHi46A9A5_w

The Dream Academy - Life In A Northern Town (1985)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBJRckv8ym8


JW

[Steadfast]

That 84 year old man had a clear understanding of what he was doing.

my sight is getting clearer as i learn from you guys...

I need an answer to this, this morning, because by 10 am I should be buying steel:
Do I stick with the 3x3 and 2.5x2.5 at 344 pounds total weight
or
Do I go with 3.5x3.5 and 3x3 at 365 pounds total weight?

the reason I ask is because i dot want to break my foundation
which is this:
My base is 1200 pounds concrete with a 2x2ft, 1/2" steel plate
With two 4"x4" 5/16thick, 1.5ft long angle iron beams welded vertical to the plate to form the hinge.

Here again is the mast material breakdown:
I am planning on building a 30ft gin tower With
one 20ft, 3"x3", 1/4" thick square structure pipe,
With one 12ft, 2.5"x2.5", 1/4" thick square structure pipe
(slid 1 OR 2 ft down inside the 3X3 and welded, making the 30ft mast)
With one 8ft Gin Pole made from 2.5"x2.5", 1/4 " thick square structure pipe
weighing a total of 344 pounds (this includes a 7ft, 60 pound turbine on the end)

---or---
I can bump up both square pipe sizes, without breaking my foundation, to build my 30ft tower with
one 20ft, 3.5"x3.5", 1/4" thick square structure pipe,
With one 12ft, 3"x3", 1/4" thick square structure pipe
(slid 1 OR 2 ft down inside the 3.5X3.5 and welded, making the 30ft mast)
With one 8ft Gin Pole made from 3"x3", 1/4 " thick square structure pipe
weighing a total of 365 pounds (this includes a 7ft, 60 pound turbine on the end)

I would rather have the strength of bigger pipe.
but not at the expense of a busted foundation...
.
.

[Steadfast]

BTW:  Thank you for this Frank:

[Volvo farmer]

I can't believe I am getting dragged into this.. 

Move your tower. You don't need a 1200 lb base with a tilt up tower.  The guy wires take all the lateral forces and the base just supports the weight of the tower and turbine.  I have a 40 foot tower and a 10 ft turbine on a 2'x2'x10" slab poured directly on grade. Took about six bags of concrete IIRC.

[fabricator]

Nah, that would be the right way to do it and too easy, this guy is all about the hard, wrong way to do it.......atleast the first time, then after the catastrophic trial run he may try the right way.

[Steadfast]

Im going with the 3x3 20ft and 2.5x2.5 10ft.
Unless you guys suggest I go with the stronger/ heavier design..
Time is running out... I need that answer soon...

Your snarky comments are not answers.

[birdhouse]

SF-
i don't think it is even a good time to even be buying pipe. 

you have yet to answer many of the questions asked, and thus we don't really have a clear understanding of what you're doing. 

can you get four guys close to the tower's top with a guy radius of 15'?? 

do you have a way to stabilize the tower (side to side) while raising?

do you understand why frank's drawing has the gin set at 75 degrees?

have you gotten non hooked turnbuckles? 

have you put the snap links on the shelf to never be used again on your tower?

personally, i'd go with the thicker pipe for the existing (troublesome) location, or go for thinner if you move you're tower to a safer, easier location.  the weight is a minimal difference. 

adam

[kensue49]

If i under stand what has been said.
1. Move the tower base so you have a clear guy line to your tower.
2. Upgrade your attachment hardware.
Heavy pipe is better.
With the cost of the new steel what is the cost of 8 to 10 bags of quickcreat.
Steadfast take a deep breath. You have invested a lot of time and money in this project so know when to discard what won't work effectively and  follow the diagram that's been posted.
The guys who have helped you to this point are not just throwing rocks but have hard won wisdom.
You are free to make the same mistakes they made at the cost of your hard earned money or you can listen to their advise.
Kenneth

[tanner0441]

Hi

Instead off keep saying what should I be doing.. Get a can of marking paint, draw the outline for your base, and the placement of your guy fixings. Then tell us what your going to do.  You have now had 8 pages of information on this thread, plus however many on your other thread.

You have the information to decide which pipe your going to use, and the ability to weld up a tower and guy fixings. A tower tall enough and close enough to come down across a neighbours property, if it doesn't upset your insurance company will sure upset his.

At the beginning you were told what would happen with what you were trying to do, and you took a load of crap for it, but you stuck it out and seem to learn from it. You now have a turbine which is heavy and capable of producing real power, if the wind blows hard enough to make it generate, there is a lot of mechanicle  power going to be dissipated into the mast, not to mention the gyroscopic forces when it yaws.  If your guy wires are not set properly and securely it will fail, it may not bend it will just come down, and remember it will still be vibrating and turning until it hits the ground.  Your 5/16 by 4 in angle will not stop it going sideways if that is the way the forces are acting on it.

Your not off grid and dependent on the power so what is the problem with a bit of a delay to do it safely. once it's up apart from maintainance it could be up for years.

The information is on this site, read, read, read, then plan and follow the plan.

Brian.

[Truckman]

Steadfast, I have a customer here in town that has over-runs from a solar panel job, the material is 6" Dia. ASTM 500 SCH 40 Pipe, it has been hot dipped galvanized inside and out. He has 16pcs at 50' and wants $8.50/foot, you could buy 1 pc or the lot. I plan on getting 3 pcs(2 for towers and a 3rd to cut in half to make the gin poles) from him in the very near future as I will be moving to a property with enough room to put up 2 turbines in the next couple of months. I am in Pa. and it might be too far of a drive for you, but I figured I'd throw it out there. If I have violated any advertising rules I apologize, just trying to help. Thanks, Truckman

[fabricator]

Im going with the 3x3 20ft and 2.5x2.5 10ft.
Unless you guys suggest I go with the stronger/ heavier design..
Time is running out... I need that answer soon...

Your snarky comments are not answers.

If you would quit being so GD stupid you wouldn't get snarky answers, man up, saddle up, and do it right boy.

[DamonHD]

Please be gentle(r): even if you think the OP is being an idiot he is at liberty to be one if he wishes, so let us all try to remain civil.

No I don't want him to hurt himself either, but I am still also largely ignorant on wind and have been learning from this thread, and I think he has been too.  And he is not yet the grumpy old curmudgeon that some of the rest of us have become...

Rgds

Damon

[tecker]

I had to Goo Snarky:

Adjective - Any language that contains quips or comments containing sarcastic or satirical witticisms intended as blunt irony. Usually delivered in a manner that is somewhat abrupt and out of context and intended to stun and amuse. Origin: Snark="snide remark".

Evelyn always called attention to the proverbial pink elephant in the room with her snarky comments.

Evelyn has mood swings .

Snarking and snorkeling with Evelyn's moody pink elephant

[fabricator]

I have to keep telling myself that this will be stickied so any new know nothing newbie can be referred to it and learn every possible mistake a newbie can make, the biggest mistakes here being hoodwinked by a feebay carpet bagger and not putting all the money spent so far into solar.  fabricator aka the thread grumpy old curmudgeon.

[tanner0441]

Hi

Whatever the comments "Snarky", "Sarcastic", or what ever, most of them are accurate and so far the predictions are coming true, and I tend to aggree with fabricator and a number of others.

Plus it has now been over a week since the last mention of the red wonder turbine, or did I not read all the posts thoroughly enough?

Brian.

[Warrior]

Several people have asked if the Red delco arrived which you seem to have not answered.

He keeps avoiding this question. I guess he hasn't grown a pair to publically admit he was wrong....shame...

[JW]

I cant see why this matters... He hasnt even got a tower erected at this point...

Unless you guys have an expectation of power in watts at a given turbine shaft speed.

JW