Author Topic: Light Wind Heavy Weight Turbine Project - as I build it. (Read 167936 times)

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #99 on:** June 11, 2012, 10:12:47 PM »

Quote from: Steadfast on June 11, 2012, 09:52:07 PM

suggestions before I go into structural overkill are requested.

There is no such thing as structural overkill on wind turbine towers. You can design a lattice for 90 mph survival, no ice. Get an ice storm and it collapses at 45 mph wind speed. Lattice towers are the absolute worst for ice and wind loading problems and it is no small engineering feat to design and build one that will not have a problem with certain natural frequency ranges that can cause it to fail with a wind turbine on it.

That's why most DIY'ers use the guyed pipe type. You don't need a degree in structural engineering to put one up that will stay up.

I think you have the homebrew book there and they also cover guyed pipe towers in there. It would be good to at least review that before proceeding. Your failure, as fabricator noted, was due to not having the thing guyed and only using the gin cables to pull it up. I have raised 90 foot guyed pipe towers made of 8" x 11 gauge wall tube with a 300 lb turbine on them with no problems at all. But without those side guys that 8" diameter tower would fail just like yours did.

A 4" x 11 gauge wall will support the weight of that turbine without even breathing hard. But without the proper guys on it, it will also whip around like a limp noodle. Building more rigidity into the tube will never work - all that tube does is support the vertical weight. It is the guy wires that support it in a horizontal direction.
--
Chris

JW · « **Reply #100 on:** June 11, 2012, 10:17:12 PM »

Chris,

What is the wall thickness for 11gauge with the pipe/tubing your using atleast a 1/4inch ?

-EDIT- Just as a side note there is such a thing as sch120...-

JW

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #101 on:** June 11, 2012, 10:34:50 PM »

11 gauge is .125". 10 gauge is .1406". This is structural tubing, measured on the OD.

Schedule pipe is different and was never meant for structural purposes, but it is more common than structural tubing. Schedule 40 4", as an example, is .237" wall. Schedule 80 4" is .337" wall. Schedule 120 4" is .438" wall. The OD of pipe changes with wall cross section. The ID of structural tubing changes with wall cross section.
--
Chris

birdhouse · « **Reply #102 on:** June 11, 2012, 10:38:26 PM »

steadfast-
bummer about the tower. you were warned though... either way, it's great to see you looking at "real" steel now. ~$160 for a 20' chunk sounds awful high to me. i made my 70' tower out of .156 wall 4" pipe. 20' chunks ran me ~$65 each in the "salvage" area of the steel yard near me. it was a little rusty, but straight!

your guys are going to be your big issue. the shed is a bit in the way. the reason most of us use guys in sets of four, is so the tower is held in place on the side to side (like yours failed) motion while raising. many of us also use two extra guys to hold the gin straight in the same plane.

towers recieve a massive amount of force while raising. that's why these things have to be well planned!

i like fabs idea of 3" schedule 40 slid into 4" sch 40. that would be pretty strong!

adam

Steadfast · « **Reply #103 on:** June 11, 2012, 10:42:10 PM »

Square or round? Which is srltronger on the way up...
do we build it 4 inches all the way up or 4 for twenty feet and 3" for the remaining ten feet?
I imagine the square pipe would be easier to build a sheath to bind the pipes together where they join...

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #104 on:** June 11, 2012, 10:45:10 PM »

Quote from: birdhouse on June 11, 2012, 10:38:26 PM

i like fabs idea of 3" schedule 40 slid into 4" sch 40.

Actually, 3" Schedule 40 slip fits into 3.5" Schedule 40.

While everybody uses Schedule pipe for guyed pipe towers, it has a low strength to weight ratio. Pipe is designed to carry liquid and gas, not for structural purposes. All commercial towers are built using structural steel - structural tubing and/or sometimes mechanical tubing (seamless), depending on the application.

Structural tubing is by far better than using Schedule pipe for towers and yields a much higher strength to weight ratio. But it is also more expensive.
--
Chris

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #105 on:** June 11, 2012, 10:49:07 PM »

Quote from: Steadfast on June 11, 2012, 10:42:10 PM

Square or round? Which is srltronger on the way up...

4" square is much stiffer than 4" round over its length. This is why most big monopole sign posts are made of large square section tubing. But it is also heavier. There is no advantage to using square on a small turbine tower with guy wires, and it will cost more.
--
Chris

Steadfast · « **Reply #106 on:** June 11, 2012, 10:55:29 PM »

Check out "round vs. Square tube strength" on homebuiltairplanes.com.

Steadfast · « **Reply #107 on:** June 11, 2012, 10:58:44 PM »

Quote from: ChrisOlson on June 11, 2012, 10:49:07 PM

Quote from: Steadfast on June 11, 2012, 10:42:10 PM
Square or round? Which is srltronger on the way up...

4" square is much stiffer than 4" round over its length. This is why most big monopole sign posts are made of large square section tubing. But it is also heavier. There is no advantage to using square on a small turbine tower with guy wires, and it will cost more.
--
Chris

the 4 inch square costs $5 more than the round for a 20ft length... It is also 3/16 thick...

kensue49 · « **Reply #108 on:** June 11, 2012, 11:00:12 PM »

Steadfast,
You just keep plugging along.
I am loving your built and the fact that you are receiving so much help speaks volumes about those who share their knowledge.
I will now shut up and watch you become what you will become.
Kenneth

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #109 on:** June 11, 2012, 11:17:22 PM »

Dude, square at the same wall thickness as round wins in deflection loading, column loading, you name it. Pound for pound (thinner wall square vs thicker wall round) there will be little difference.

You got a McDonalds around there? Just walk in and tell 'em you're the sign repair man. Then rush out to the parking lot and cut the bolts off with the torch on that big sign post with the Golden Arches on it. When it crashes to the ground scrap the 200 square ft of Golden Arches and sign and have about 8 guys handy to latch onto that big square tube and load it on the trailer. Rush home with it and you got yourself a 40 foot free-standing turbine tower that will take 150 mph wind with no problem.

Kind of reminds me of the days when me a bunch of guys backed a pickup up to an outhouse at a country school, tipped it into the back of the pickup and took off with it.

BTW - if we see in the news where somebody stole the post on the McDonalds sign in North Carolina, we won't say nuthin'......
--
Chris

fabricator · « **Reply #110 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:02:42 AM »

Quote from: Steadfast on June 11, 2012, 10:58:44 PM

Quote from: ChrisOlson on June 11, 2012, 10:49:07 PM
Quote from: Steadfast on June 11, 2012, 10:42:10 PM
Square or round? Which is srltronger on the way up...

4" square is much stiffer than 4" round over its length. This is why most big monopole sign posts are made of large square section tubing. But it is also heavier. There is no advantage to using square on a small turbine tower with guy wires, and it will cost more.
--
Chris
the 4 inch square costs $5 more than the round for a 20ft length... It is also 3/16 thick...

Like Chris says structural comes in different wall thicknesses, you can get that 4" square down to 1/16" wall thickness.

fabricator · « **Reply #111 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:09:16 AM »

Quote from: JW on June 11, 2012, 10:04:05 PM

All pipes have a wall thickness gauge or thickness grade listed in grade, such as sch40, sch80, or sch160. structural steel, has the same identifiers as boiler pipe...

Not sure where you got that from, boiler pipe has a whole different nomenclature than structural steel, it's a completely different animal. Boiler pipe is seamless structural steel is resistance welded unless you order DOM tubing and that's still way different that steam pipe.

CraigM · « **Reply #112 on:** June 12, 2012, 10:45:50 AM »

Putting that tower up is serious business. It's in your back yard after all, it cannot fail and come crashing down. People will use that back yard and if it falls it could kill someone.

Make sure you understand exactly how to do this and don't expect that gumption and tenacity will circumvent sound engineering. This will be an engineering challenge for you and I hope you and your father in law are not in over your head. I've never raised a tower so I have no first hand experience in the matter so I would rely heavily on senior members here to make this a safe operation. No more plowing through on a weekend build. Plan first, then action... and read that book!

If you had this thing in the middle of a field I'd say go for whatever makes you happy. But it's not, and I don't want someone to get hurt.

Be safe with this and have fun,
CM

Steadfast · « **Reply #113 on:** June 12, 2012, 10:53:10 AM »

Here is the new winch I just bought:

Product Description :
DAYTON Winch,Worm Gear,3000 Lb Single Line Pull.
for the SMOKIN price of $134.78/EA

http://www.zorotools.com/g/00053854/k-1DJN5/

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #114 on:** June 12, 2012, 01:09:46 PM »

Quote from: fabricator on June 12, 2012, 08:02:42 AM

Like Chris says structural comes in different wall thicknesses, you can get that 4" square down to 1/16" wall thickness.

I took an old Whirlwind turbine down that was on a 40 foot free-standing tower made of 8" square by 1/4" wall for the base section and 7" x 10 gauge for the top section. It was welded to a 1" thick plate that was bolted to 20 tons concrete in the ground and had a hinge on it to tilt it to lower it. You could hook on the top of that 8" square with a D8 Cat and couldn't bend it or pull it over. Tried it because the guy wanted the concrete foundation of of the ground. Didn't work. Couldn't even budge it - all it did was spin the tracks on the Cat. I cut the hinge off and cobbed the 8" tubing. The concrete is still there.
--
Chris

Truckman · « **Reply #115 on:** June 12, 2012, 01:13:45 PM »

Steadfast, Is this going to be sufficient for your new tower? Will you be moving it away from your shed to give you clearance for your guys? Truckman

gsw999 · « **Reply #116 on:** June 12, 2012, 01:18:15 PM »

Love the colour scheme on the blades!!!

Gavin

Cambridge, England

fabricator · « **Reply #117 on:** June 12, 2012, 01:22:03 PM »

Quote from: Steadfast on June 12, 2012, 10:53:10 AM

Here is the new winch I just bought:

Product Description :
DAYTON Winch,Worm Gear,3000 Lb Single Line Pull.
for the SMOKIN price of $134.78/EA
http://www.zorotools.com/g/00053854/k-1DJN5/

Single line pull is not a good idea in any case, at least go from the winch to a snatch block on the gin then back to an anchor point on the winch mount.

Mary B · « **Reply #118 on:** June 12, 2012, 02:03:38 PM »

Couple 10 foot pieces of Rohn 25g at $119 each would be a simple fix... at 30 feet it can handle a lot of load.

birdhouse · « **Reply #119 on:** June 12, 2012, 02:09:03 PM »

Quote

Single line pull is not a good idea in any case, at least go from the winch to a snatch block on the gin then back to an anchor point on the winch mount.

this is very good advice. it lowers the strain on your winch (though not the winch mount), and makes the whole process a little slower and more predictable.

adam

Steadfast · « **Reply #120 on:** June 12, 2012, 02:32:06 PM »

Quote from: birdhouse on June 12, 2012, 02:09:03 PM

Quote
Single line pull is not a good idea in any case, at least go from the winch to a snatch block on the gin then back to an anchor point on the winch mount.

this is very good advice. it lowers the strain on your winch (though not the winch mount), and makes the whole process a little slower and more predictable.

adam

I will look into buying one or two of them...
what size do you think I might need?

jlt · « **Reply #121 on:** June 12, 2012, 02:33:06 PM »

I think that you need to make your gin pole 50% of the tower height.

Just cut the lower section off the tower and put it up . With all the trees you don"t stand a chance Of making any power .
Just make sure it is tall enough to clear the roof of the shed by a few feet.

A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.

Nasty comment.sorry jlt

birdhouse · « **Reply #122 on:** June 12, 2012, 02:43:39 PM »

Quote

A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.

wow, that wasn't very nice!

anyways, this should do you just fine so long as your pull cable is 5/16" or smaller.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029

adam

Steadfast · « **Reply #123 on:** June 12, 2012, 03:33:22 PM »

Quote from: birdhouse on June 12, 2012, 02:43:39 PM

Quote
A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.

wow, that wasn't very nice!

anyways, this should do you just fine so long as your pull cable is 5/16" or smaller.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029

adam

ok... I just bought one...

Do you guys have a photo of how one of these snatch block things is mounted on a Gin Pole?

Steadfast · « **Reply #124 on:** June 12, 2012, 03:36:39 PM »

Quote from: jlt on June 12, 2012, 02:33:06 PM

I think that you need to make your gin pole 50% of the tower height.

Just cut the lower section off the tower and put it up . With all the trees you don"t stand a chance Of making any power .
Just make sure it is tall enough to clear the roof of the shed by a few feet.

A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.

Nasty comment.sorry jlt

weiner award....

truthful comment.sorry

birdhouse · « **Reply #125 on:** June 12, 2012, 03:54:06 PM »

i welded a big flange to my gin pole. here you can see the gin guys, as well as the tower guys.

Steadfast · « **Reply #126 on:** June 12, 2012, 04:00:06 PM »

That's what I needed to see... got it... thanks!

just-doug · « **Reply #127 on:** June 12, 2012, 05:02:21 PM »

when you position your new worm winch,you should notice if you thread the cable in from one side,you pull the spool away from the worm gear.this is bad.thread the cable in from the other side so the spool of cable will pull into the worm gear.this increases the gear tooth contact and prevents gear slipage/failer.my vote on the tower is the 4 inch square tube,3/16 wall,all the way up.2by 3 inch by1/4 angle iron fish plate/cable flanges on tower joints and cable attachment points.this would have the additional benifit of being strong enough to allow increasing turbin size in the future if increased capacity is needed.spellcheck still not working

fabricator · « **Reply #128 on:** June 12, 2012, 07:11:22 PM »

Quote from: Steadfast on June 12, 2012, 03:33:22 PM

Quote from: birdhouse on June 12, 2012, 02:43:39 PM
Quote
A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.

wow, that wasn't very nice!

anyways, this should do you just fine so long as your pull cable is 5/16" or smaller.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029

adam

ok... I just bought one...
Do you guys have a photo of how one of these snatch block things is mounted on a Gin Pole?

Yikes for 16 bux I'd make sure it has a grade 8 bolt, grade 8 will have five marks on the head.

spottrouble · « **Reply #129 on:** June 12, 2012, 07:24:22 PM »

Quote from: fabricator on June 12, 2012, 07:11:22 PM

Quote from: Steadfast on June 12, 2012, 03:33:22 PM
Quote from: birdhouse on June 12, 2012, 02:43:39 PM
Quote
A yard ornament Only has to go round and round.

wow, that wasn't very nice!

anyways, this should do you just fine so long as your pull cable is 5/16" or smaller.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATV-UTV-Winch-8K-Snatch-Block-/150609918632?pt=Motors_ATV_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23110cfaa8&vxp=mtr#ht_1444wt_1029

adam

ok... I just bought one...
Do you guys have a photo of how one of these snatch block things is mounted on a Gin Pole?

Yikes for 16 bux I'd make sure it has a grade 8 bolt, grade 8 will have five marks on the head.

I have serious doubts about that snatch block having an 8000LB capacity, and the snap ring holding it together is an accident waiting to happen. Just my .02c

And did you ask about country of origin? I'll bet 20 bucks its China

Yes I am biased

Frank S · « **Reply #130 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:21:30 PM »

Any device used for hoisting or lifting needs a minimum safety factor of4 to one , 8 to one if it goes on my elevators. Any wire rope sheave needs a bend radius of 15 diameters 30 if it is used for hoisting.
For the occasional one time use you can get away with tighter bend radius one easy way to tell if a block will carry your load is to take the cross sectional area of the pin multiply by the yield strength divide by 4 to get safety factor
This is not the correct to do this but the down& dirty way. never assume the pin is any stronger than low grade mild steel consider that a 1/2" shaft pin with an area of .196sq" @ 36,000 psi yield would take 7068 Lbs to bend it @4>1 you would have 1767 safe working load And even at that it would be dodgy because no account was taken for the snap ring grove or the side plates or the looseness between the sheave & side plates the thickness of the side plates or anything else
even a 3/4" shaft pin using this way to figure only has .441" x36,000=15,894/4=3,976lbs. A well made snatch block will use 150,000PSI pin stock or better .441x150,000=66,150/4=16,537 and will only be rated by the MFG for 4 tons

Light Wind Heavy Weight Turbine Project - as I build it.

when in doubt always try to err to the direction of safety

fabricator · « **Reply #131 on:** June 12, 2012, 08:34:26 PM »

That is why I'd put a grade 8 bolt through it with a couple jamb nuts or a nylock nut on it.

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Author Topic: Light Wind Heavy Weight Turbine Project - as I build it. (Read 167936 times)