Author Topic: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)  (Read 32585 times)

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fabricator

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2012, 02:56:40 PM »
" Can someone explain what the reason is for needing Carved Woodedn Blades to successfully produce a Decent Windmill that produces acceptable power? "



I think it is time for you to do some research on this subject.

Good answer, good bye and good luck.
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Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2012, 05:13:45 PM »
" Can someone explain what the reason is for needing Carved Woodedn Blades to successfully produce a Decent Windmill that produces acceptable power? "



I think it is time for you to do some research on this subject.

Good answer, good bye and good luck.

 I know that it's because of the airfoil guys... it doesn't take a genius to fiugre that one out.

 The Point was that it seem like it's so Difficult for ever to say it for some reason...

 Take care!

birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2012, 07:36:14 PM »
the reason most of us carve blades is because we can make them exactly the length we want.  we can also pick the design tsr to hopefully match the load.  we can adjust the hub to run 2, 3, 4, or even 10 blades if the needs is there.  some PMA's might be best off with a 5 blade tsr 4.5, while others may run best with a two blade tsr7. 

the reason we don't seem to be a fan of those skinny tipped, wide big angle rooted  hornet type blades is they are typically very noisy and have very little torque.  not to mention that that wide, angled root will actually be pushing wind, not being pushed by wind; once the blades have gotten into the higher rpm range.  sure this wide angled root helps with start up in low winds, but who cares, your not producing power at these rpms, and just putting excess wear on the bearings. 

if the wind is strong enough to produce power, then homebrew type blades will be spinning.  who cares if a set of blades start spinning at 3mph?  it doesn't accomplish a thing. 

then there's all sorts of other blades mass produced out of fiberglass, or even plastic.  they rarely have any worthwhile design put into them, and many times have big balancing issues, and durability issues. 

then there's the youtube videos of the blades "that really rip!" who knows if the genny is even connected, or just freewheeling.  zero rpm measurement, zero tsr info, zero amps per wind speed, heck not even wind speed.  but "they sure do rip!"

does this help to clarify the reasons?

adam

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2012, 08:13:10 PM »
It might be my first wind turbine build, yet I've been building and repairing oddball machines for over 30 years, if a part is not available, I just make it, no repair manual, no problem 8). So yes sometimes I am quick to judge if something has potential or not. The build part will be the easiest part of this adventure for me, controlling and storing power is another thing, because I'm not an electrician ;). There are some of the posts in the "Control" category that I swear they are talking english, I just haven't a clue what they are saying ???.

I still think a good comparison test of the plastic blades vs PVC blades is in order, if nothing else just so future builders can make an educated choice.

Kristin


Frank S

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2012, 08:23:50 PM »
Adam; you pretty much summed it up of course if a guy has the expertise to make a mold the shape length , profile of a set of blades so eh can cast them out of whatever be it carbon fiber glass fiber or you name it and knows how to achieve a rigged enough well balanced blade then he probably wouldn't make more than one out of wood as a template once he had established his design parameters.
  He would still have the sanding and finishing for smoothness. But  on the other hand he would probably find is much faster and easier to go with wood or even wood laminate for larger blades. 
  When it comes to using thick walled PVC or similar pipe in the 8 to 14 inch diameters a proper layout after calculating the length or TSR he needed based on the sectional profile some very nice blades can be made but there is as much work to getting the shapes and profile correct as there is with wood.
  finding the correct leading edge, trailing edge, windward profile and lee side profiles combined with cord area to achieve the correct TSR for the genny is where the home brew guys excel especially since they alone can know their wind sites
 No blade factory can ever get it perfect
 Even the MEGA watt users will send their engineers to oversee or inspect the blades for the large turbines as they are being made.
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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2012, 08:47:25 PM »
Quote
There are some of the posts in the "Control" category that I swear they are talking english, I just haven't a clue what they are saying .

i'm the same way, though slowly getting better.  it's not hard at all with off the shelf stuff.  it's when you try and make your own mppt, that things go way over my head. 

forgot to mention, there is a very good blade company "royal wind and solar" that make a GOE 222 profile that kicks butt!  i think their prices are pretty reasonable for those who aren't into or don't have the tools to carve their own. 

adam

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2012, 04:30:49 PM »
I was wondering abuot something.

 Building your own wind turbine allows the ability to choose the proper wire coming from the Genny to the Battery Bank and Dump Load. If I'm Looking to have a good 10 awg or better coming form the motor that I choose for this project, I would most likely have to gauge the wire coming off of mine. I took a look at the print on the wire and it says "16awg" on it.

 Being that this motor willnot be produce high power and amps by far, Should I still replace this wire with some that was 12 or even 10awg? And If I were to replace it (it's just a pair of large red and Black wires coming from inside the motor where the brushes are) Would it be okat to replace it Right from the Brushes? it looks like there are 4 total.

 Thanks.

fabricator

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2012, 05:06:48 PM »
The length of the wire run from your turbine to your battery bank will dictate the size of wire you need in your run.
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Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2012, 05:19:00 PM »
The length of the wire run from your turbine to your battery bank will dictate the size of wire you need in your run.
Thanks for responding.

Because of the resistence. So the longer the run, the heavier gauge. Got it.

 And as far as the Diode in between the Turbine and the battery bank, I would have to know the Max Amps that it can produce first or can I just go with a safe amperage. Being that it's rated for 1.6amps as a motor, this doesnt' really give me any idea except that it hsould be able to producwe more than the Ametek 99 which is rated for .59amps and can produce around 24amps max as a Generator.

 Also, You asked how many poles that my motor had... How could I figure this out?

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2012, 03:37:10 PM »
The length of the wire run from your turbine to your battery bank will dictate the size of wire you need in your run.

 Fabricator,

This may be a stupid and simply answered question but I was curious if you could answer whether or not a Shorted Turbine will spin differently than one with the Load of a Batt-bank?

 Thanks.

 Reason being is that I haven't purcahsed a Diode and heatsink yet for my Turbine to hook up a battery bank yet. Although I have raised it while shorted in simple winds and it doesn't want to turn much at all. the back EMF will counter balance the turbines potential when shorted, correct? So it will get harder to spin the faster you try and spin it....

fabricator

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2012, 08:10:10 PM »
Yes, the turbine runs normally when not shorted.
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Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2012, 11:24:56 PM »
Yes, the turbine runs normally when not shorted.

 Sorry, for clarification. If NOT Shorted, and there IS a Battery Bank Load, the Turbine will spin more freely than IF Shorted?

 I don't have a "frame of reference" of what Normal running is with a load attached, yet!? thanks for the response and the patience.
 :)

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #78 on: July 22, 2012, 01:38:42 AM »
Yes. When shorted it is a pure magnetic break essentially, when pushing power into a battery it is a working load, it will still provide back emf but no where to the level that it would when shorted
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Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #79 on: July 22, 2012, 02:03:58 AM »
Yes. When shorted it is a pure magnetic break essentially, when pushing power into a battery it is a working load, it will still provide back emf but no where to the level that it would when shorted

 Got it! Thanks for Verifying that in full. Sorry, just wanted to be on the same page.

 That IS indeed some light at the end of the tunnel then... Should be picking up a Diode and heatsink this week. I have 4 of the 12 batteries that I need as well. Along with 2awg Copper Welding Wire and 1awg lugs and heatshrink sleeving.

 It seems like a toss up in the coomunity with some folks whether or not to go with a fuse between the Batteries and Turbine? Any Recommendations?

 If I'm going to be using Solar as well, should I just get an MPPT Ch/Con now?

 Also, I'm still wondering what the best Wire to use from the Turbine Wires (16awg @ 3.5ft long) to the Batteries would be? I'm probably only looking at a 50ft or less run. Should I just pick up some standard 12-2 (w ground)? Or would some Stranded Wire work Better in this case.

 I'm also wondering about the Neccesity of Grounding the Turbine if it's about 35ft in the Air...

 Thanks again.  :D

fabricator

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #80 on: July 22, 2012, 08:21:53 AM »
Yeah the turbine will spin up to whatever your cut in is and start charging, beyond that it will either spin up to where you have your furling set to start or it will stall out someplace in between, if it stalls out before it gets to full speed then you need to open the air gap a little.
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Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #81 on: July 22, 2012, 12:33:42 PM »
Yeah the turbine will spin up to whatever your cut in is and start charging, beyond that it will either spin up to where you have your furling set to start or it will stall out someplace in between, if it stalls out before it gets to full speed then you need to open the air gap a little.

 -Okay great. Thanks. I'm looking at around 40rpms for cut-in (i.e. 12.5v?) and 61-62rpms (19.37v) for Charging @.80 efficiency for 15.5v.

 -I have the setup to be a quick disconnect system before storms if need be as I don't have a Furling system in my basic deisgn yet.

Also

 - I have a PM DC Motor. I don't know if there is a way to adjust the airgap without tearing the motor down and reseating the Mags if there is any room to begin with...
   I I'll need to do that I may as well build a decent Axial Turbine.

P.S. Any recommendations on my previous posts questions?

 Thanks!


 

fabricator

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2012, 04:48:46 PM »
What is the diameter of your blade rotor going to be?
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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2012, 06:11:54 PM »
What is the diameter of your blade rotor going to be?


 The Blades that I have are 30" Long and are aproximately 2.25" from Dead Center of Shaft.... The Rotor itself is about 8" Dia.

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2012, 11:00:11 PM »
Okay, So I finally picked up everything that I think that I needed to get the this thing up and running on the 4 6v 208ah Batteries that I have so far... 

 I Got a couple of things.

 1. 10-2 Zip Wire (just 2 wires no ground) with some quick Disconnects
 2. 4awg AGU Fuse Holder and 25amp fuse to run between the BAtt Bank and the PSW 1000w inverter that I have.
 3. 50Amp Toggle Switch to short the Turbine for lowering.
 4. 50amp Diode to go in between the Turbine and Battery Bank. (will attach it to some insulated mounted alluminum to disapate heat and Complete Circuit)
 5. 100v DC Analog Voltmeter to monitor Turbine output voltage.
 6. Cheap V/O meter to monitor Battery Bank Voltage.
 7. 2awg Copper Welding Wire and 1awg Lugs and Heat Shrink to cut and created Batt Terminal Links. (Inverter came with 24" 4awg B/R wires)
 
 Now I'm wondering the best way to gage a dump load.


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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2012, 11:20:54 PM »
Okay, So I finally picked up everything that I think that I needed to get the this thing up and running on the 4 6v 208ah Batteries that I have so far... 

 I Got a couple of things.

 1. 10-2 Zip Wire (just 2 wires no ground) with some quick Disconnects
 2. 4awg AGU Fuse Holder and 25amp fuse to run between the BAtt Bank and the PSW 1000w inverter that I have.
 3. 50Amp Toggle Switch to short the Turbine for lowering.
 4. 50amp Diode to go in between the Turbine and Battery Bank. (will attach it to some insulated mounted alluminum to disapate heat and Complete Circuit)
 5. 100v DC Analog Voltmeter to monitor Turbine output voltage.
 6. Cheap V/O meter to monitor Battery Bank Voltage.
 7. 2awg Copper Welding Wire and 1awg Lugs and Heat Shrink to cut and created Batt Terminal Links. (Inverter came with 24" 4awg B/R wires)
 
 Now I'm wondering the best way to gage a dump load.

25amp fuse for 1000w inverter?

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2012, 11:43:51 PM »
Okay, So I finally picked up everything that I think that I needed to get the this thing up and running on the 4 6v 208ah Batteries that I have so far... 

 I Got a couple of things.

 1. 10-2 Zip Wire (just 2 wires no ground) with some quick Disconnects
 2. 4awg AGU Fuse Holder and 25amp fuse to run between the BAtt Bank and the PSW 1000w inverter that I have.
 3. 50Amp Toggle Switch to short the Turbine for lowering.
 4. 50amp Diode to go in between the Turbine and Battery Bank. (will attach it to some insulated mounted alluminum to disapate heat and Complete Circuit)
 5. 100v DC Analog Voltmeter to monitor Turbine output voltage.
 6. Cheap V/O meter to monitor Battery Bank Voltage.
 7. 2awg Copper Welding Wire and 1awg Lugs and Heat Shrink to cut and created Batt Terminal Links. (Inverter came with 24" 4awg B/R wires)
 
 Now I'm wondering the best way to gage a dump load.

25amp fuse for 1000w inverter?

I KNOW That was all that they had at the moment.  For now it's fine as I'm only needing it with a couple of hundred watts, MAX...

 I was thinking more long the lines of 85-100amp fuse as the Holder can do upto 120amps....

birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2012, 12:26:51 AM »
you asked about fusing the turbine in a earlier post.

first off, you should understand, fusing is to protect the wiring from getting too hot due to too much resistance. 

you stated you're running #10 wire for 50'.  folks generally don't fuse their turbines.  mine isn't!  the issue is if the fuse blows due to being defective, bumped, scraped ect, the turbine freespools and may self destruct.  keep in mind that defective ect. fuse is only going to fail in the windiest day of the year....

if you insist on fusing yours, i'd put a 40A dc fuse in place.  i fully understand that #10 wire is rated for 30A, but a 30A fuse would make me very nervous.  step it up one.  if your #10 wire is new, it's probably got a pretty hefty temp rated insulation, and (guessing) won't cause a fire hazard at 40A. 

have you sunk in (2) 8' ground rods for your tower yet?  acorn clamps, #4 solid wire, and a non electroysis connection (brass)???

adam

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2012, 01:08:39 AM »
you asked about fusing the turbine in a earlier post.

first off, you should understand, fusing is to protect the wiring from getting too hot due to too much resistance. 

you stated you're running #10 wire for 50'.  folks generally don't fuse their turbines.  mine isn't!  the issue is if the fuse blows due to being defective, bumped, scraped ect, the turbine freespools and may self destruct.  keep in mind that defective ect. fuse is only going to fail in the windiest day of the year....

if you insist on fusing yours, i'd put a 40A dc fuse in place.  i fully understand that #10 wire is rated for 30A, but a 30A fuse would make me very nervous.  step it up one.  if your #10 wire is new, it's probably got a pretty hefty temp rated insulation, and (guessing) won't cause a fire hazard at 40A. 

have you sunk in (2) 8' ground rods for your tower yet?  acorn clamps, #4 solid wire, and a non electroysis connection (brass)???

adam

 I"m not fusing my Turbine. I'm fusing the Cable between the Inverter and the Battery Bank. Look at #2 again.

 I also just stated that 25amp fuse was the largest that they had at the time and that the Fuse holder is good for upto 120amp fuses and I was thinking of 85-100amp being that 1000/12v= 83.3amps

 Why would I need "(2)" 8ft grounding rods?


birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2012, 11:56:45 AM »
if your tower is steel, it is much like a lightning gathering device.  having a solid ground on the tower makes it much less vunerable to lightning and if it still gets hit, it gives the lightning a very direct path to ground. 

Watt

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2012, 12:40:01 PM »
Okay, So I finally picked up everything that I think that I needed to get the this thing up and running on the 4 6v 208ah Batteries that I have so far... 

 I Got a couple of things.

 1. 10-2 Zip Wire (just 2 wires no ground) with some quick Disconnects
 2. 4awg AGU Fuse Holder and 25amp fuse to run between the BAtt Bank and the PSW 1000w inverter that I have.
 3. 50Amp Toggle Switch to short the Turbine for lowering.
 4. 50amp Diode to go in between the Turbine and Battery Bank. (will attach it to some insulated mounted alluminum to disapate heat and Complete Circuit)
 5. 100v DC Analog Voltmeter to monitor Turbine output voltage.
 6. Cheap V/O meter to monitor Battery Bank Voltage.
 7. 2awg Copper Welding Wire and 1awg Lugs and Heat Shrink to cut and created Batt Terminal Links. (Inverter came with 24" 4awg B/R wires)
 
 Now I'm wondering the best way to gage a dump load.

25amp fuse for 1000w inverter?

I KNOW That was all that they had at the moment.  For now it's fine as I'm only needing it with a couple of hundred watts, MAX...

 I was thinking more long the lines of 85-100amp fuse as the Holder can do upto 120amps....

Since you do KNOW, I will not mention surge amps at turn on or surge amperage for the inverter once you use it's full capabilities.  Also since the surge rating is not listed, I will not recommend a fuse.. 

Best of luck.

Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2012, 07:14:13 PM »
if your tower is steel, it is much like a lightning gathering device.  Having a solid ground on the tower makes it much less vunerable to lightning and if it still gets hit, it gives the lightning a very direct path to ground.


 So two 8fters are best? I would like to note that I have a couple of trees that are abuot 30ft taller that my Turbine and hang a bit over it...

 Would it be more likely that lightening would hit those instead becasue it's all based off of +/- charges to the closest object? I still plan on grounding it better though.

 Is there an alternate way to ground it?


I KNOW That was all that they had at the moment.  For now it's fine as I'm only needing it with a couple of hundred watts, MAX...

 I was thinking more long the lines of 85-100amp fuse as the Holder can do upto 120amps....

Since you do KNOW, I will not mention surge amps at turn on or surge amperage for the inverter once you use it's full capabilities.  Also since the surge rating is not listed, I will not recommend a fuse.. 

Best of luck.
[/quote]

 LOL- Really Sorry about that "know" in all caps. I didn't even Realize that it happened. Totally looks like a teenagers response, huh?

 Once again, sorry about that.

 Anywho...

 Surge rating for the inverter is 2kw... So ar you recommending a Larger Fuse than 85-100amp I take it? I saw that Steadfast had a 300amp fuse between his 2 12v batteries and 2500w Inverter for his "Small Wind Turbine" Project... would something more closely rated to that be wise?

 Also, we had 12-24mph winds all day today and the turbine reached a good 60v-65v which calcualtes out to be between 190-205 rpms...

 Thanks

 I added a photo of the wireing that completed today and was wondering what you all thought? I haven't hooked up the Turbine yet to the Battery bank as I don't have a dump load and wondered at what point int he circuitry would it go and how would it know to be transferred over to the dump load once the Batteries were topped off? or would it take the path of least resistence? Advice would be great.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2012, 07:25:23 PM by Mastiffman »

fabricator

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2012, 07:45:19 PM »
A dump or charge controller is a "smart" device that monitors the voltage in your battery bank, it dumps power into your dump load when a preset voltage is reached.
The charge controller is hooked directly to your battery bank.
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Mastiffman

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2012, 08:41:35 PM »
A dump or charge controller is a "smart" device that monitors the voltage in your battery bank, it dumps power into your dump load when a preset voltage is reached.
The charge controller is hooked directly to your battery bank.

 So it has to be way of a Charge Controller then with dump load capabilities... Are there ways of Building one?

Watt

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2012, 08:58:39 PM »
A dump or charge controller is a "smart" device that monitors the voltage in your battery bank, it dumps power into your dump load when a preset voltage is reached.
The charge controller is hooked directly to your battery bank.

 So it has to be way of a Charge Controller then with dump load capabilities... Are there ways of Building one?

Look up the Ghurd controller and you can make a load for it. 

fabricator

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2012, 09:23:29 PM »
On this site there are probably several thousand different home built charge controllers and dump loads, but Ghurd makes a pretty solid unit with excellent support, and they are ridiculously cheap for what you are getting.
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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #96 on: July 25, 2012, 09:36:02 PM »
On this site there are probably several thousand different home built charge controllers and dump loads, but Ghurd makes a pretty solid unit with excellent support, and they are ridiculously cheap for what you are getting.

okay, Thanks!

 I'll check it out. I will be adding PV Panels as well so would it just be better to get a MPPT unit and skip the hassle and time consuming project of building one?

birdhouse

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #97 on: July 25, 2012, 10:01:24 PM »
Quote
better to get a MPPT unit and skip the hassle and time consuming project of building one?

there aren't many quality wind controllers made with mppt.  mignite solar does a few for ~$800.00.  otherwise, you can get a pwm type morningstar ts-60 for ~200, or a ghurd for less than 20!!  you have to solder it yourself, and make/buy a dump load, but that isn't hard, and the ts-60 doesn't come with the dump load either!  the upside the the ts-60 is it is temp compensated.

back to grounding...  even with tall trees, that steel pole could give you trouble!  i'd atleast use one 8' rod with #4 to brass, to the tower base. 

adam

Watt

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Re: Starting a Slow and Steady Windmill Genny (First Timer)
« Reply #98 on: July 25, 2012, 10:10:02 PM »
Quote
better to get a MPPT unit and skip the hassle and time consuming project of building one?

there aren't many quality wind controllers made with mppt.  mignite solar does a few for ~$800.00.  otherwise, you can get a pwm type morningstar ts-60 for ~200, or a ghurd for less than 20!!  you have to solder it yourself, and make/buy a dump load, but that isn't hard, and the ts-60 doesn't come with the dump load either!  the upside the the ts-60 is it is temp compensated.

back to grounding...  even with tall trees, that steel pole could give you trouble!  i'd atleast use one 8' rod with #4 to brass, to the tower base. 

adam

Adam

Not sure if you know but, the midnite classic can be had for around ~650.00 at the right retailer and even less if it's the lite.