Sharp ND-U230Q2 Solar Panels?

[Mastiffman]

Found these for sale on Craigslist for $265 a panel

Would these be worth the money in the price range?

Here is a spec sheet for them.

[Mary B]

Brand new http://www.solarblvd.com/Solar-Panels-&-Systems-Individual-Solar-Panels-175-Watt-+-%2811%29/c1_25_203/p2588/Sharp-ND-U230Q1BX-230W-24V-Solar-Panel/product_info.html lower price.

[birdhouse]

since there won't be shipping costs, i'd say those would be a great deal per watt! 

buyer beware though.  i'd bring a dmm along and test them for Voc and amps. 

FYI-  if your running a 12v system, those would only work to their best potential with a mppt controller.  you could run three in series with a tristar mppt 45!  that's be a slick system!  or series/parallel 4 of them into the same controller!  either way would be tata's!

i feel they would work really well for a 24v system with a standard pwm controller, though others may disagree. 

12v panels usually have a Vmp of 17-19ish... 

adam

[Mastiffman]

since there won't be shipping costs, i'd say those would be a great deal per watt! 

buyer beware though.  i'd bring a dmm along and test them for Voc and amps. 

FYI-  if your running a 12v system, those would only work to their best potential with a mppt controller.  you could run three in series with a tristar mppt 45!  that's be a slick system!  or series/parallel 4 of them into the same controller!  either way would be tata's!

i feel they would work really well for a 24v system with a standard pwm controller, though others may disagree. 

12v panels usually have a Vmp of 17-19ish... 

adam

How do you feel about only having a 6 month Total Warranty?

So I could run these with a 12v setup? But could also use them for a future 24v or 48v System. Also, I just went and picked up 2 US Battery 1800xc's for $220 total. They are 6v each.

Is there any way that I could get away with a less expensive MPPT Charge Controller? Scratch that.

 This is the same one right?
http://ressupply.com/store/solar-charge-controllers/mppt/morningstar-ts-45-tristar-charge-controller-45a-12/24/48-vdc

$145 that's no to bad huh?

 Tristar only makes 1 TS-45 Model, Not a PMW AND a MPPT verion right?

[klsmurf]

That one's not MPPT. It is listed under that heading, but not for that price.

[birdhouse]

they make a pwm 45 and a mppt 45.  it really isn't the best marketing idea.  especially since they look virtually the same in photographs, though in real life the mppt version is much thicker.  just a quick google, they're between 360 and $400.  that's without the display screen.  they're spendy, but they are also one of the most efficient mppt controllers on the market.  they also have a 5y warranty, and a great track record!

adam

[Mastiffman]

they make a pwm 45 and a mppt 45.  it really isn't the best marketing idea.  especially since they look virtually the same in photographs, though in real life the mppt version is much thicker.  just a quick google, they're between 360 and $400.  that's without the display screen.  they're spendy, but they are also one of the most efficient mppt controllers on the market.  they also have a 5y warranty, and a great track record!

adam

 Yeah, I contacted a rep from the site and you were right.

 Well at this point, that's kind of out of my budget. I would like to get one eventually but for now I need to stick to somethin a little bit lower-end. Not a big deal though. I have upgraded many electronics over time through taking great care aof them and reselling them in a good time frame to make back a good portion of them money spent opriginally, to contribute towards the next upgrade. This has always worked well for me and has proven to provide wisdon through experience.

 So, Any suggestions on something around the $150-$200 range?

 I think that the main thing at this point is to make sure that I get panels that are going to be around for a while as I will be upgrading in the future. Rather quickly over the next year.

[birdhouse]

you can use those solar panels without mppt.  you'll be lucky to get half the wattage though.  you have a few options. 

1) stick with mppt.  rogue power makes a great one.  hand made by a guy mark in the US in an offgrid shop.  5 year warranty, and ~$325 including display and battery temp sensor.  30A rated.  honestly, his displays blow the pants off the morningstars.  i've got both.  downside, is 50Voc is the max for that controller, so you'd be forced to run those panels in parallel which isn't a bad thing.  this controller would still make those panels run full out!

2) get a tristar NON mppt. the 60A can be found for less than $200, but doesn't include display (another ~$100)  the beauty of this controller is you could run it in divert mode and use it to control both your solar and wind with a proper dump load.  (im doing that now with mine).  downside is solar panels would be crippled in output. 

3)morninstar also makes a sunsaver mppt @ around $200 w/out display.  don't know if you could add one? but you could only use one of those panels per controller...   

4) find panels made for a 12v system

5) buy two more batteries, and start a 24v system (you'll thank yourself later!

i don't work for morningstar, i just think they make some of the best CC out there!

adam

[Mastiffman]

you can use those solar panels without mppt.  you'll be lucky to get half the wattage though.  you have a few options. 

1) stick with mppt.  rogue power makes a great one.  hand made by a guy mark in the US in an offgrid shop.  5 year warranty, and ~$325 including display and battery temp sensor.  30A rated.  honestly, his displays blow the pants off the morningstars.  i've got both.  downside, is 50Voc is the max for that controller, so you'd be forced to run those panels in parallel which isn't a bad thing.  this controller would still make those panels run full out!

2) get a tristar NON mppt. the 60A can be found for less than $200, but doesn't include display (another ~$100)  the beauty of this controller is you could run it in divert mode and use it to control both your solar and wind with a proper dump load.  (im doing that now with mine).  downside is solar panels would be crippled in output. 

3)morninstar also makes a sunsaver mppt @ around $200 w/out display.  don't know if you could add one? but you could only use one of those panels per controller...   

4) find panels made for a 12v system

5) buy two more batteries, and start a 24v system (you'll thank yourself later!

i don't work for morningstar, i just think they make some of the best CC out there!

adam

I actually thought about getting 2 more of those batteries and going 24v. Especially after the thread that I started about why people 6v over 12v. Had some pretty good responses. BUT that would mena that I would have to get rid of the New 1000w/2000w 12v PSW Inverter that I got. Or I could get the batteries, series and parallel them for now and when I start seeing a little return, then switch up to 24v. the inverter would be the only thing that I would have to change.

 Just going to a 24v system would basically double battery capacity at the same usage woudn't it?

 The Display gives all of the read outs, why don't companies just make them all with displays?

[DamonHD]

Just going to a 24v system would basically double battery capacity at the same usage woudn't it?

Doesn't matter how you arrange the batteries, they still hold the same energy, so no by any reasonable definition of "same usage".

Rgds

Damon

[birdhouse]

damon is very correct about the battery capacity.  Ah is an Ah, no matter how you stack it!

you've read the posts about return on investment, versus grid costs right?  i hope you understand you're return is almost never going to outweigh system costs right? 

the upside to having a system, though, is you're pumps/filters ect won't be affected when the grid goes away for a few hour/days...

adam

[Mastiffman]

damon is very correct about the battery capacity.  Ah is an Ah, no matter how you stack it!

you've read the posts about return on investment, versus grid costs right?  i hope you understand you're return is almost never going to outweigh system costs right? 

the upside to having a system, though, is you're pumps/filters ect won't be affected when the grid goes away for a few hour/days...

adam

 I read this link the other day. Tell me what you think as far as if I'm misunderstanding it.
http://www.batteryweb.com/pdf/inverter_battery_sizing_faq.pdf

 The Money that I'm using is mostly not coming out of our budget. It's coming out of my wheeling and dealing off of craigslist. I've been working on saving enough money to get it started as we are not well off like some others. We are doing better than before, but this is why I'm starting all of this now. So when we start using less power per month, I will take the difference and put that back into building the system larger, frequently. What I've done for Literally Year building our computers is start off small and buildup. But with this project, I will actually be saving "a bit" of money per month. Before it would just be "Build a PC with out of pocket money, Use it for a time, resell the components and put that money Along with a little more out of pocket money that I saved over that time, towards newer and better hardware." I wouldn't really have any gain except to a newer and faster PC that was a bit more efficient because of the small form factor...

 But this will yield me to use less power each month for sure as I will be removing more and more from the grid as time progresses.

 But yes, either way, I won't have any worries and my expensive fish will be maintained in times of power outages. I have 4k/6.6kw surge fuel powered genny as well. Our bill this last month was $480. We cut down 2 trees on the south side of the lot that gove some shade in previous years on the house but they were dying. Now the AC is having a harder time keeping up as we probably need to add more insulation And better attic venting. but all come in due time. I maybe doing things out of order a bit but we have been taking care of the big things each apring with taxes. So the trees were this year and the insulation will be next, if not sooner. BHut I also plan on upgrading the furnice fan as well as the guy that installed didn't really make the proper estimate for CFM in my opinion... Not for a 2200sq ft house.

[DamonHD]

I don't know if you're still hoping that rearranging the the batteries makes a big difference to the energy they hold, but on this forum we obey the laws of thermodynamics I'm afraid.

All sorts of other things are tweakable, but not really that.

Rgds

Damon

[Bruce S]

Mastiffman;
 you may need to reread the formulas and estimation rules.
That explains the math side of this.
Going from 12Vdc up to 24Vdc will not get you anything more from the batteries than they can deliver.
Sizing of wires may have less loss in longer runs.

[Mastiffman]

I don't know if you're still hoping that rearranging the the batteries makes a big difference to the energy they hold, but on this forum we obey the laws of thermodynamics I'm afraid.
All sorts of other things are tweakable, but not really that. Rgds

Damon

 

I'm not hoping for that. I was just trying to make sure that I understood properly. Thanks for explaining.

Mastiffman;
 you may need to reread the formulas and estimation rules.
That explains the math side of this.
Going from 12Vdc up to 24Vdc will not get you anything more from the batteries than they can deliver.
Sizing of wires may have less loss in longer runs.

This part.
"

1. Watts = Volts x Amps
2. Battery capacity is expressed by how many Amps for how many hours a battery will last - Amp-Hour (A.H.) capacity
3. For a 12-Volt inverter system, each 100 Watts of the inverter load requires approximately 10 DC Amps from the battery
4. For a 24-Volt inverter system, each 200 Watts of the inverter load requires approximately 10 DC Amps from the batter"

 So this quote is saying ONLY that you need less Amps (current) to run the same watts for large voltage systems.. In Comparison?

 The Amps referred to here in NO. 2 &3  are Not Referring to the "Capacity of the battery themseves" but the "amperage that the bank will allow for the watts?

SO lets sasy that if I wanted to run my 12v 1000w inverter @ 800watts/day based off of the 20ah rating of 208ah capacity for the battereis that I have purchased. the calculation for the bank would be as follows?

will it be 800w/ 10dc amps = 80amps

 If I want to pull all 800w, 24hr/day: 80amps x 24hr = 1920 Ah

 1920Ah / 208ah = 9.23 (10) x 2 (6v batts) = 20?

 If not I'm lost... lol

 That can't be right.

[Mastiffman]

LMBO! No responses...

 Here is another one...

http://www.btekenergy.com/documents/215.html

 SO...  According to this link...

 1000wh/day with a 3 day reserve and DoD of 40% with batteries in 70 *F + and a 12v system...

1000 x 3 / .4 x 1.04 / 12v = 650Ah of batteries.

Using 6v Steries Strings in 4 parallelled Circuits would be 8 x 6v batteries or 4 x 12v batteries.

 Unless I I got 6v batts 215ah or more., then it would be 6 x 6v or 3 x 12v.

[Bruce S]

The first one is fairly correct, you will need 20 of the 208Ah 6Vdc batteries in that scenario.
Before I go any further instead of playing around with numbers over and over.... give us what your power needs are in 120Vac terms.

Bruce S

[Mastiffman]

The first one is fairly correct, you will need 20 of the 208Ah 6Vdc batteries in that scenario.
Before I go any further instead of playing around with numbers over and over.... give us what your power needs are in 120Vac terms.

Bruce S

 Thanks and HOLY CRAP!? What is up with that last link then? They are WAY off! no?

 Like I said, I'm looking to run a 1000w Inverter for now. It will be small Mag Drive Motors (EM Coil that drives a Magnetic Impeller) and Lights OR Heaters, whichever I can run more of off of the inverter, Safely.

[Bruce S]

I'm at work and subject to dropping off here without notice!!
How long will you be running the 1000w inverter?
I run my daughter's smallish aquaponics garden off a 300w MSW throughout the winter.

[Mastiffman]

I'm at work and subject to dropping off here without notice!!
How long will you be running the 1000w inverter?
I run my daughter's smallish aquaponics garden off a 300w MSW throughout the winter.

No Problem. I would like to run it until I can build a bigger system. Slowly but sure would like to get as big s I can. I wheel and deal in quality stuff and restore it and resell I as well as my fish breeding. So I will use it to start and then would like to upgrade periodically.

 What type of equipment is on her 300w MSW inverter? Just 1 pump?

Andrew C.

[Bruce S]

An Areoponics original :-).
Light which is those color corrected (read costly) built-in timer and smallish 12Vdc pump. System with light and pump running draws >2amps at 120Vac. I tired a smaller 140watt and it would run the lights but not pump, and I was ATM too lazy to split things out.

Okay:-) let's go this route, a 1000 watt inverter on a 12Vdc system. NOTE this will not include any losses of battery charge inverter inefficiencies etc.   
1000/12=84Amps per hour times 24 hours = 2000Amps to run the 1000watt inverter flatout for the entire 24 hours.
Which means yes, you will need 20 of those 208Ahr batteries , each being 208Ahr 6Vdc batteries.
IF you don't want to really outright kill the batteries in quick order and only want to run them to 40%DOD then you're going to need 40 of them.
OR a timer that will shut down the pumps and only run them a certain number of time each hour.

OUCH!!
Hope this helps without too much headache!! or wallet ache!!
Bruce S

[Mastiffman]

An Areoponics original :-).
Light which is those color corrected (read costly) built-in timer and smallish 12Vdc pump. System with light and pump running draws >2amps at 120Vac. I tired a smaller 140watt and it would run the lights but not pump, and I was ATM too lazy to split things out.

Okay:-) let's go this route, a 1000 watt inverter on a 12Vdc system. NOTE this will not include any losses of battery charge inverter inefficiencies etc.   
1000/12=84Amps per hour times 24 hours = 2000Amps to run the 1000watt inverter flatout for the entire 24 hours.
Which means yes, you will need 20 of those 208Ahr batteries , each being 208Ahr 6Vdc batteries.
IF you don't want to really outright kill the batteries in quick order and only want to run them to 40%DOD then you're going to need 40 of them.
OR a timer that will shut down the pumps and only run them a certain number of time each hour.

OUCH!!
Hope this helps without too much headache!! or wallet ache!!
Bruce S

 DAMN!? That's a lot of Batteries! AND MONEY!...... That I don't have.

 So tell me this. If I'm using PV Panels to charge the batteries from around 7:30am to abou4:30pm, so 9 hours max of sun... How does this affect the Battery bank size?

So is the Following links Math Wrong?

Scroll down a bit to find the calcualtion steps.
http://www.btekenergy.com/documents/215.html

 P.S. How many Batteries are in the bank for the Aeropnics 300w inverter?

[Mastiffman]

Bruce S.,

 Here is another site that is only calculating my Amp-hour neccisities as 500 whcih would be 6 6v 208ah batteries.

 This is including 3 days of autonomy.

http://www.winglette.com/BatterybankSizing.htm

1. Determine Wattage needs. (1000w)
2. Determine Basic battery bank size by Multiplying that (wattage needs) by number of Anticipated days of autonomy (if using only wind) they say x1 for Excellent wind cond. and x3 for Poor wind cond.) So I'm going with 3 to be safe even though I'll be using solar as well.
3. Determine SAFE Basic Batt Bank Size by Multiplying Batt-bank size by 2.
4. Determine Needed Amp-hours by Dividing the "Safe Batt-Bank Size" by Systems DC Voltage. (i.e 12v)

Equasion: 1000w x3 x2 / 12v = 500hr Safe Basic Battery Bank Size....

 This would be 6x 6v, 208ah Deep Cycle Batteries...

[Bruce S]

you do know that to run those for 3 days that x3 should be 72 right? 3 days 24/day = 72.

[Mastiffman]

you do know that to run those for 3 days that x3 should be 72 right? 3 days 24/day = 72.

 Gosh, I'm an idiot.... my math was right but I used the wrong DAILY wattage... I was only taking into account for 1000w/ day. Thanks for waking me up. I only got .45hr sleep last to get up early and have some BS-er offer me half of what my CL item is really worth...

 1000*24*3*2/12v .............? YEAH Right!... 58x2? LOL

 So tell me once again, how many batteries are in the bank for that 300w inverter?

 So if I had solar running for 9hours/ day that would be 15hr or batt-bank time. And w/o autonomy right now, that would be 24 according to the above calculations with a "Safe BBB"...

 15000 *2/12= 2500 or 24 6v @ 208ah... WOW. I'm going to have to build one heack of BB.... UNLESS I get Better Batteries. Even only calculating 15000 watts/d /12v is still 12 6v batteries.

 Why didn't someone just show me this calculation from the beginning... LOL could have saved a looooot of time. lol

 15k

[Bruce S]

NOTE:My battery bank IS by no means standard!!

I use repurposed NiCds, built the 2 20Ahr battery banks myself, with 2 16Ahr banks as the dump load.
NiCds can take abuse better than Lead based, but cost much more too.
I use two of Ghurd's golden standard dump load controllers with an LVD to keep things happy.
I don't run the unit full time, I make full use of the natural sun and augment it during winter so only thing running is timer and 12Vdc pump.
Your fish I'm sure cost more than my whole setup.

[Mastiffman]

NOTE:My battery bank IS by no means standard!!

I use repurposed NiCds, built the 2 20Ahr battery banks myself, with 2 16Ahr banks as the dump load.
NiCds can take abuse better than Lead based, but cost much more too.
I use two of Ghurd's golden standard dump load controllers with an LVD to keep things happy.
I don't run the unit full time, I make full use of the natural sun and augment it during winter so only thing running is timer and 12Vdc pump.
Your fish I'm sure cost more than my whole setup.

Ah gotcha. thanks.

 Would it be better to just save and go for the big batteries?

[Bruce S]

That is purely your call.

You could begin small, get a feel for what is involved.
WE all did and only through learning did the guru's here get to be that way.
Heck I've got pics up here somewhere of my NiCds overcharging out til they popped while my back was turned took less than a minute.
Even a free nearly dead car battery can be a good learning tool.

[Mastiffman]

That is purely your call.

You could begin small, get a feel for what is involved.
WE all did and only through learning did the guru's here get to be that way.
Heck I've got pics up here somewhere of my NiCds overcharging out til they popped while my back was turned took less than a minute.
Even a free nearly dead car battery can be a good learning tool.

 More like a free core charge! 

 So what size is your biggest system to date?

[Bruce S]

My personal one is very small due being on-grid and knowing it's cheaper to go the route of conservation that RE.
Beyond that I've set up standy systems that include diesel gen-sets in the Kw size, MGE UPS systems that have 4 banks 12V batteries with a DC output of 480V plus a few home sites with anything from 100watts lighting for a deck to two 300watt solar panel systems, one which was an upgrade from an old HF 45watt system.
Plus some units over in Philippines along with their designer < and fellow forum member Rich H.
Next on my list is a small 600 watt system restore system in Papa New Guinea.

Why do you ask?
 

[Mastiffman]

My personal one is very small due being on-grid and knowing it's cheaper to go the route of conservation that RE.
Beyond that I've set up standy systems that include diesel gen-sets in the Kw size, MGE UPS systems that have 4 banks 12V batteries with a DC output of 480V plus a few home sites with anything from 100watts lighting for a deck to two 300watt solar panel systems, one which was an upgrade from an old HF 45watt system.
Plus some units over in Philippines along with their designer < and fellow forum member Rich H.
Next on my list is a small 600 watt system restore system in Papa New Guinea.

Why do you ask?

 Oh just curious.

 I went out and purchased a "kill A Watt" meter... Here is what I want to power on my second floor.

1. 110g: 2 Medium Sized Canister Filters, 1 250w Heater and a 48" 4 bulb T5 Fixture
2. 60G: 2 Aquaclear 70 HOB- Filters, 300w Heater (yeah I should switch this one out with the 250w in the 110g) and a 48" 2 bulb T5 fixture
3. 40g: 2 Aquaclear 70 HOB- Filters, 200w Heater, Single Bulb 24" CFL Fixture
4. 15g: Aquaclear 70 HOB- Filter, Single CFL Fixture
5. 10g: Small HOB Filter, 50w Heater
6. 10g: Powerhead filter w/ Sponge filter and 50w heater
7. 3 5-tank air pumps on a Manifold to power the 7 Box filters and 3 Egg Tumbler Air Stones.

I tested the wattage with the K-A-W meter by turning all of the lights on and the heaters slightly up.

 Take a wild guess at how much wattage I'm pulling all together with the heaters and lights on?
 

[jvnn]

About 1500W?

[Mastiffman]

About 1500W?

Under 950w and that is IF all fo the Heaters and lights were on ALL at the same time.

 So I think that my estimation of a 1kw inverter will be good to go. With lights and heaters not running I'm around 400 watts continuous with the pumps.

 We Get Charged 0.1550/kw