Author Topic: Homemade/gridtie (Read 6342 times)

gww · « **on:** August 01, 2012, 08:07:59 PM »

Is anyone grid tie with home made solar and turbines? The ameren missouri aplication makes this impossible.

It would sure save batteries and switching loads to a sub panel.

I have 2000w home made panels 1400w bought panels and several wind turbines of various wattages. Two outback 3648 gvfx inverters and their sub panels. I need to decide which way to jump.

So much cheeper with a minimal battery bank and grid tie.
This may be impossible looking at their aplication though.

I would just do it but I'm sure my production will be too consentrated except during air conditioning season for me to get use of what I'm producing.

I would really love to hear from anyone as I'm not sure what to do. I know one thing I'm not going to put an aplication in untill I am sure that when they start watching me I have a chance of making them happy. I have used a couple of plug and play inverters for expeirmenal reasons but never worried as I never produced more then 1 kwh per day. Anybody?
Thank you
gww

fabricator · « **Reply #1 on:** August 01, 2012, 08:38:36 PM »

The inverter is what needs to satisfy the power company, as long as they approve it you are good to go, and that is usually not an fleabay chinese inverter, it's gonna be one of the big names.

gww · « **Reply #2 on:** August 02, 2012, 03:27:05 PM »

fabricator
The outback should be ok. The aplication says all componants have to be UL, CT, etc etc.
They want the owners manuals of all components. Their example aplication shows lay out and shows the manuals for fornius inverter, a spicific solar panel and southwind turbine and I have to pay for meters and any changes they need to make to facilitate thier line to except mine.
I was under the impression that the inverter and its wiring would be what was important untill I looked at their aplication prosess.
I've seen your tower issues. Do you still think I will be ok with my equiptment?
thank you.
gww

Is anyone grid tied with ameren missouri?

fabricator · « **Reply #3 on:** August 02, 2012, 07:19:11 PM »

Welcome to my world, IMHO grid tie is a scam anyway, if you read all the fine print they will credit you what they want when they want, they can also change the rules at any time without notice, if I were you, I would buy the batteries and tell the POCO to take a flying leap, sooner or later your area will get smart meters, then they will be able to turn your turbine on and off whenever they want to.
They make it so expensive because they don't want to credit you, the state has probably mandated they have a certain amount of green energy in their portfolio and you probably have a net metering law, but that don't mean they have to make it easy or fair.

gww · « **Reply #4 on:** August 02, 2012, 07:46:19 PM »

Yea
I hate to even ask them any questions. I might get a smart meter sooner if I don't already have one. I guess If I'm going to buy the batteries anyway I could ask but then If they even made a claim of any problem I would be like the wind turbine poeple. I could spend $50,000 to prove I'm inocent. I would no longer be under the radar. I live in a rural area and don't believe any body will even pay attention to my towers and such unless an electric company or such decided I was screwing them. If I get the guts to ask and it happened to work out it would be a cheaper system though. Hummm.
Thanks fab
gww

fabricator · « **Reply #5 on:** August 02, 2012, 08:41:51 PM »

If I would have known then what I know now I would have taken the advice of a friend of mine, when I told him I was gonna take the high road and go to the township and get a permit and do it by the book, he asked "What are you nuts? Just put it up it's a lot easier to ask for forgiveness than permission".
If I would have taken that advice my turbine would be on an 80 foot tower right now and nobody would have even noticed, but no, me being a dumb ass and actually thinking our township government was working for me it's on a 25 foot tower, and I'm on the radar.
Just stay separate from the grid, no interconnections anywhere and they got no business bothering you.

dnix71 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 02, 2012, 08:42:49 PM »

You can't make power cheaper than you can buy it and you won't make much money trying to sell power to the electric company. They buy at wholesale and sell at retail. But if you want independence, you need enough batteries to carry you over at night and when the wind doesn't blow.

If you don't backfeed the grid, then it's easy to avoid a confrontation with powers that be. No one cares much what you have if it isn't connected to their expensive equipment.

Cut use first. That's always cheapest and easiest. Use thermal hot water and thermal heat to replace electric/fossil fuel hot water and space heat. Insulate your home to reduce heat and a/c requirements.

Mary B · « **Reply #7 on:** August 02, 2012, 11:21:59 PM »

MN buyback is retail rate, depends on the state.

DamonHD · « **Reply #8 on:** August 03, 2012, 02:36:00 AM »

UK new FiTs still pay better than retail (generation + export) plus you don't pay to import any energy you use directly on site.

Not all places are hostile to microgenerators. I've put up 24kWp of solar PV so far round here, and with very little red tape and no resistance from anyone (planners, DNO, suppliers) etc. Even got the UK's Energy Secretary to come and pose with the last set to get some helpful publicity for the school they went on. (I think I've needed two formal waivers from the DNO to inject more than 16A per phase and they've been very helpful; no other formal paperwork at all required.)

Rgds

Damon

gww · « **Reply #9 on:** August 03, 2012, 06:03:05 AM »

dnix71
Even though I should insulate better, caulk, etc. I haven't in 20 years I've owened the house. I may get around to it someday or maby not. I run the ac to keep cool and don't keep it on the high edge of comfort. I dought I save money on the built solar as some of it probly won't last that long. I used three different coverings over the cells. Contact paper, eva, and encapsulent. The encapsulant will probly last the longest but was most exspensive. Panels have come down and the ones I bought were as cheap as what I built even using free glass for the builds. I will get to see how the other stuff works though.

The turbines weren't that cheep to build ether.

I did pay as I went however and enjoyed the projects. I don't try very hard to conserve and I don't go out of my way to waste. I will be retired very soon and if I can save $20 per month from where I am at now, it won't be a bad thing. I also can add stuff as I go once I get the base system running.

I would like to get some use out of what I built in as good of fassion as posible. If I add batteries and stay off grid I would need to put my inverter and batteries in my house and switch my loads from my main panel to my sub panel. If I went grid tie I could put a minimal battery bank in a garage and just feed my house through the grid.
Over all my electric may be higher than the grid elect however I have already payed for the stuff I already have. The grid tie would be definently cheaper with less over all maint. if I can keep the E. company off my butt. Also if I die first my wife may be able to handle fewer system items better.

fabricator
I usually do what I want then work through any problems that pop up. This seems to be a big enough system that I would have a harder time just sneaking by under the raidar. I would really rather go through the grid as it makes more sense but I am not a team player so I may have to go the extra cost to keep my independence. I can't decide if just asking on the possibility of it working is going to effect my other option. I hear your advice loud and clear. If I don't ask I'm either a chicken S. or really really smart.

Damon
The elect. comp. acts like if you stay under 10 kwh they don't reqire insurance and such.

I apreciat the advice I'm still not sure what I'm going to do.
Thank you
gww

fabricator · « **Reply #10 on:** August 03, 2012, 08:19:48 AM »

Damon lives in the U.K. a different country, overall most U.S. power companies are indifferent if not hostile by way of regulation, it sounds like you have made your decision, good luck, I hope it goes well for you.

d34 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 03, 2012, 10:24:27 AM »

Ameren MO pays $0.019/kwh and charges around $0.12/kwh (summer rate). The meter fee without any usage is $8.61/mo. So you would have to sell over 400kwh/mo to them just to pay the meter fee. I am still contected to Ameren at the moment and have a system with battery bank. I looked at grid-tie and decided against it.

kitestrings · « **Reply #12 on:** August 03, 2012, 10:50:04 AM »

Quote

You can't make power cheaper than you can buy it and you won't make much money trying to sell power to the electric company. They buy at wholesale and sell at retail. But if you want independence, you need enough batteries to carry you over at night and when the wind doesn't blow.

I agree with the first statement.

Here in VT the legislation enacted a minimum rate of $.20/ kWh, only for solar, for net metered generators. So, for wind the utilities are 'buying' (crediting really) at retail rate; for solar above retail rate by ~$.03/ kWh. Credits are monitized and can be stored for up to 12-mos. from the month generated. A properly sized system can then off-set all year-round costs.

I would just add to the last statement that "if you want independence..." -you really need a battery bank sized for a few wind-less (or sun-less in the case of PV) days.

~ks

gww · « **Reply #13 on:** August 03, 2012, 05:10:08 PM »

fabricator
If it looks like I have made my decission could you tell me what it was. Thank you for your post.

dc34
So if you didn't want to sell any back wouldn't a bi-direction meter bank what you made during the day and let you use it at night and then when you used more then you made, that is what they would charge you for? I may not understand. I realize they have a minimum charge and thats why I would only go so big.

Kitestrings
Thats what I want.
Thanks
gww

d34 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 03, 2012, 05:31:56 PM »

Yes you can bank what you produce during the day and use it at night. Any extra that you banked at the end of the month is paid out at the $0.019/kwh. So to have no bill at all you would have to produce all that you use plus over 400kwh extra. The 400kwh extra will be paid to you at around $8 and your neighbor that uses it pays them around $48. I would rather give it away to my neighbor. I never saw anything on their paper work that said it can be banked for more than a month. So you cant produce the power in the winter and then bank it for use in the summer.

gww · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2012, 05:44:38 PM »

d34
Yes Thats how I hoped it worked for my system. That doesn't mean I think its fair to only give .02 cents for extra, it just means I think I understand. My winter bill is usually around $67, my summer can get as high as $240. I doubt I can ever cover my summer bill. I may be able to build to where my winter bill is about $8. Do you know anyone who has gotten connected with homemade panels and wind turbines?
Thank you
gww

PS
Non thread related question; What type of batteries do you use?

d34 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2012, 06:16:52 PM »

I actually dont know anyone this is grid-tied or off-grid anywhere close to me. There is a guy on here named getterdone that is in MO and off-grid. He is in middle south part of the state.

I have a 24v and 48v system. I bought the 48v system from a guy in northern MO. It has 2 banks, 1 set of old phone batts that are lead calcium and the other is 120 small 12v sla batts that are 17ah each. The 24v system is Rolls 4KS 25P series 5000. If you want to know more pm me about them so we dont mix up this thread.

gww · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2012, 06:36:03 PM »

dc34
I actually don't know anyone that has solar or wind power of any kind. I have a great uncle that bought two panels and a car alt. type wind turbine, but only got to look at them once for ten minutes before I had to move to a different state for work. didn't even know he was interested till then.

I did stop at a place on the road that has 5 skystreams and talked to him about 30 min. and a guy at work just installed two skystreams. I don't find their conversations that interesting as they don't seem to know much about their systems. Plus I don't really know them. I guess thats why I'm here. I have worked on things on my own for years that I am getting answers for rather quickly here.
Thanks
gww

wlcoldiron · « **Reply #18 on:** August 11, 2012, 12:17:10 AM »

Hi
If you read the rules of the grid closely you can avoid the pitfalls of the utility czars. I have a QF number. It results in a set of civil rights that makes the interconnection in your favor. If you fail to do the homework you reap the pitfalls. Weldon

gww · « **Reply #19 on:** August 11, 2012, 02:05:42 AM »

Weldon
Not sure I understand your post.
avoiding pitfalls sounds good to me.
Thanks
gww

dnix71 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 11, 2012, 11:59:33 AM »

GWW QF is a qualified facility. That means your project meets the legal and technical standards for interconnecting to your electrical supplier and selling back to them the power you produce from renewable resources.

Do that first and the electric company will have to go along with your plan.

http://www.solardyne.com/deyowiprgrti.html

If your utility is public investor owned, your turbine is (usually) under 25kw and all the parts are compliant with the National Electrical Code "NEC," then you should be able to get a QF number from your utility and be allowed to connect and sell back power. The usually sticking point in your case is a home built turbine has no UL or NEC certificate generated by someone licensed to do so. It will be up to you to prove your turbine will not do harm to the system it is connected to.

If you paid to install a commercial made solar pv system on your house, all of that would have been handled by the manufacturer, contractor and municipal inspections, etc. In this case you are attempting to do this at home on your own. Someone with a license will have to inspect and sign off on what you are attempting to do and they will have to negociate and agree with your electric supplier's inpsectors on all the details.

gww · « **Reply #21 on:** August 11, 2012, 04:00:42 PM »

dnix71
What you are laying out seems to be nearly impossible for me to accomplish.
1. two thirds of my solar is homemade.
2. all of my turbines are homemade.
My inverter should pass their inspection. It seems wrong to base pass or fail on being forced to buy new stuff when it is just voltage going to what is connected to the grid, the inverter. I understand the wiring coming to the inverter being correct. What I don't understand is what differrance it makes for the voltage producing items from, a feild, ran to the inverter, that are ok if not connected to the grid are not ok if connected. If I have proper disconnects and the inverter passes why would they care what the voltage comes from if it can't indanger their system or workers. And me hiring an exspert for systems that can't effect them seems wrong. But I have read their application and this seems to be the case. Do you know anyone who went grid tie with simular requirements that was sucsessfull in using homemade equiptment. I would love to hear how they handled it.
Thank you
gww

fabricator · « **Reply #22 on:** August 11, 2012, 05:24:19 PM »

It's pretty simple, hire an electrical engineer and a structural engineer and get stamps for your state on everything, it would probably cost you something north of twenty thousand dollars to do it but you would be good to go.
You can by a really nice bank of batteries for twenty thousand dollars and not be subject to any of their inspections or fine print.

dnix71 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 11, 2012, 05:37:22 PM »

gww The utility you want to sell back to has deep pockets (lots of money). Lawyers being what they are, look for deep pockets when something goes wrong. Your investor owned utility does not want any of it's money being taken away by lawyers in case of equipment malfunction or operator error.

If everything meets the NEC and UL, then insurance will pay for mistakes and harm.

You cannot run the grid from your homemade stuff. You can barely run your own home from it. What possible good do you think comes to your utility from allowing you to backfeed a few KWH instead of just dumping the excess?

Stay off the grid entirely and you come out ahead financially and ahead with your time not being spent trying to get permits for everything.

fabricator · « **Reply #24 on:** August 11, 2012, 08:05:20 PM »

The one and only reason your poco allows grid tie in the first place is it was mandated by the state, by state law they need to have certain amounts of "green energy" in their portfolio by certain dates, they got dragged kicking and screaming into the whole thing.
So, basically this is their way of "allowing" you to grid tie, they get to make the rules, right or wrong, common sense, mean nothing to them, you can piss and moan and attend meetings and talk loud and draw a crowd, but in the end you are just wasting time and effort, take it from somebody who knows, I battled the township for three years, until I got to the zoning board of appeals, they all agreed the ordinance was wrong and unfair, but, it is still the ordinance, either abide by it or pay the piper.
Unless you have a lot of money to give to lawyers it just aint worth the bull$hit.

gww · « **Reply #25 on:** August 12, 2012, 09:42:38 AM »

fabricator and dnix71
As no one has chimed in and said "I worked with this person from the elect comp and he/she was very helpfull and it went without a hitch" I believe you. I guess I will be giving sams club a bunch of money for 6 volts and building a box to store them in. I liked my oridginal plan, when I was still optimistic, better, however I know ignourance is not bliss. Thank you for helping me see the light. I got about one year to gether and plan what I need and now I guess I will work towards getting it together.
Thank you for your time and insite.
gww

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Author Topic: Homemade/gridtie (Read 6342 times)