Friction heater running in my house

[slapstick]

This friction heater I have built costs me around 5 cents a hour to run @ 14 cents a kilowatt. The inside temp of my house is at 70F  day and night, the out side is around 30F to 10F. That would be a delta T between 40F and 60F. My house is around 1250 sq. ft.   
Here is my youtube Chanel where I post my videos on it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQjPSsIWDvg&feature=plcp

[dnix71]

I don't know what to say. This is truly depressing to see. People, there is no magic and no free lunch.

Aside from the outright lie that it uses no fuel (where does the electricity to run it come from?), the most efficient way to heat a home is extreme insulation, so the warm bodies and waste heat from appliances inside are not lost to the outside.

The second best way is a heat pump. The coefficient of performance of a regular reverse a/c heat pump is 3 or 4 times that of the friction heater you describe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump.

[JW]

What concerns me is the mention of delta-t I would like to know why a thermodynamic cycle is related to a friction heater, which should be possible.

So lets say its plausable, why isnt there a radiator with a fan hooked to the "heating drum" which has oil in it?

You cant be serious thinking with just the OD of the steel cylinder would be effective in heating an air space.

Also I like the kill-o-watt meter hooked to the outlet powering the motor that spins whatever, just because theres a low coeffient of viscosity, its relative to dismal heating. Ya if you had a IC engine turning pitch/tar that would make some heat. The coeffient of friction is way to low to make "BTU" but may make some sensable heat, big deal.

JW

[JW]

I looked at the claims in the youtube video-

This one claims to be the first to discover the principle-

Here is a backgrounder-
http://www.rexresearch.com/frenette/frenette.htm

There are many patents that cover this, but that doesnt mean it works

"December 1998 Kinetic Furnace Test: Previously Reported Results Retracted

Further testing was carried out by Mallove and Ed Wall, June through September of 1998, in Bow NH at NERL (New Energy Research Laboratory), but no significant excess heat was observed during that period. Another machine was shipped from Georgia, but it too showed no excess. Finally, Pope loaded a third unit into a van and drove it to New Hampshire himself. He helped install and test it, but this third test also failed."



JW

This is the second OU topic weve got in the last day or two. Bear in mind this is not a spambot, its a real person. There's no real way to filter this type of thing. This thread may be locked or deleted at anytime.

[XeonPony]

Sad that people are so ignorant of such basic fundamentals.

As the saying goes here" Any thing is possible when you don't have a *&#@ing clue what your talking about.

Beuatyfull build, but once you really crunch the numbers less efficient then any direct heating method. Now perhaps if it where powered directly off a turbine one could say it is "free" in a sense!

*Edit* Added info

[Bruce S]

JW

This is the second OU topic weve got in the last day or two. Bear in mind this is not a spambot, its a real person. There's no real way to filter this type of thing. This thread may be locked or deleted at anytime.

JW:
I watched this a couple times. I can't see where he claimed OU so I'll not lock it just yet.
There are a few phrases being thrown out there that don't have continuity, so those need further explanation.
IN the VID, that I had time to watch during a server HD restore, he does say he'll be attaching fans and such.
I'll try keeping an eye on this, but he's within the rules of the board so far.
AT least he's not like those silly infomercials from "windtamer turbines " claiming to beat the Betz limit using dual vacuums
Bruce S

[bob golding]

if he is using as 1hp motor thats 746 watts. the power station will at best be 30% effiecient. the motor might be 96% or there about. so there's 34% gone before you start. then there's the belt friction the bearing friction plus whatever losses are involved in the friction drum its self. if he is going to put fans on it as well they will take power. a 750 watt fan heater would work just as well. if it were me i would  have spent the money on a decent rotary wheel desiccant dehumidifier. costs about a rof the price drys the air and you get  a free fan heater as well. dry air makes you feel warmer so you need less heat to maintain the temperature. i live in a cold damp granite house so have personal experience of the effect.

[DamonHD]

Smells dangerously like "the laws of thermodynamics don't apply to me because I'm special" but I'm happy that Bruce is arbiter on this one.

I'd like to point out that I still don't have any heating on at all and we're maintaining about a 10C/10K delta T over outside at this moment, with 4 warm bodies in a 76m^2 house.  Sometimes the smartest heating is not needing any at all.

Rgds

Damon

[Frank S]

the perfect house would be one with walls so thick and insulated so well that a single bottle of very cold adult beverage will keep it cool in summer and the heat produced from the burning tip of a single Montecristo in the winter. If I ever achieve that I will be happy

[slapstick]

I don't know what to say. This is truly depressing to see. People, there is no magic and no free lunch.

Aside from the outright lie that it uses no fuel (where does the electricity to run it come from?), the most efficient way to heat a home is extreme insulation, so the warm bodies and waste heat from appliances inside are not lost to the outside.

The second best way is a heat pump. The coefficient of performance of a regular reverse a/c heat pump is 3 or 4 times that of the friction heater you describe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump.

LOL
Thanks for the feed back.
There is no lies here but I am sure someone who can not get there head around something would be skeptical.
I am heating my house with this heater and I do not have some super ueber isolated house.
All I am showing you people is that the world is not flat and the sun does not go around the earth.

[slapstick]

What concerns me is the mention of delta-t I would like to know why a thermodynamic cycle is related to a friction heater, which should be possible.

So lets say its plausable, why isnt there a radiator with a fan hooked to the "heating drum" which has oil in it?

You cant be serious thinking with just the OD of the steel cylinder would be effective in heating an air space.

Also I like the kill-o-watt meter hooked to the outlet powering the motor that spins whatever, just because theres a low coeffient of viscosity, its relative to dismal heating. Ya if you had a IC engine turning pitch/tar that would make some heat. The coeffient of friction is way to low to make "BTU" but may make some sensable heat, big deal.

JW

The Delta-T I am referring to is the Temperature differential from the inside of my house to the out side of my house. If you feel I am using this the the word the wrong way.... well I am sure you now know what I am getting at. I am by no means a lab coat or even claim to be. What I am is a guy that has built a heater that cost me VERY little to heat my house with. Yes I know the surface area is not as it could be and I am make it better with the addition of 16 gauge strap down the side of the tube. But with this the way it is it still is working better then all of your house heaters, sorry to say gents but it is true.

[bob golding]

i have looked art these about 5 years ago.if you are saying it is more efficient than alternative forms of heating i would suggest you do a  scientific analysis. you don't need to be a "lab coat" as you put it but lets see some figures to show the comparisons. what were you using before this device to heat your house? how are you doing the comparisons. a neat row of data showing the temperature inside and out. the amount of power consumed. the humidity at the time of the test. the fuel source. the cost of the fuel. not knocking your efforts but anyone wanting to replicate your results would need all that information before spending money on something like this.

[slapstick]

Well thanks Bruce
I have not claimed over unity or any such claim. All I see is people so fast to shut something down because it does not fit inside there text book.
I will keep using this heater and keep making it better. My heating bill was $250 just to HEAT my home! and around $80 for the rest of the appliances. That is a total electric bill of $330 a month in the winter. My bill this month for October was $150 giver or take some pennies, so you can "crunch" those numbers all the way to the bank.
P.S. have fun with you heating bill.

[JW]

Slapstick, dont mind me Ive just been cranky.

I do think the friction heating has a coolness factor, but not sure if it will pan out, what did you think about the links to the patents?

JW

[slapstick]

i have looked art these about 5 years ago.if you are saying it is more efficient than alternative forms of heating i would suggest you do a  scientific analysis. you don't need to be a "lab coat" as you put it but lets see some figures to show the comparisons. what were you using before this device to heat your house? how are you doing the comparisons. a neat row of data showing the temperature inside and out. the amount of power consumed. the humidity at the time of the test. the fuel source. the cost of the fuel. not knocking your efforts but anyone wanting to replicate your results would need all that information before spending money on something like this.

I was using a 220v electric wall heater in each room that was heating my house before this.
When the heat core comes up to temp that I have set it to it is at 250F the hemostat that I have in the house is reading at 58%. The temp in my house is set to 78F and stays there all day and night.I have Thermometers in each room and that all stay with in 3F from each other.
" how are you doing the comparisons"
I am tracking my kilowatt consumption by the day and by the week and by the month.
The motor uses 550 watts when running the heater core. you calculate the run time verses the non run time over every hour, day, and month, or you can call that the cycle time if you prefer.
"the fuel source" the only thing being use is electricity. @ .14 cents a kilowatt 
 I know everyone want the other person to serve up all the info to them and them feed them with a spoon, I will be posting the data sheets when I get more then just 30 days of run time.
Lets get this VERY clear I am NOT trying to get anyone to buy this. I am just sharing what I have built with everyone. If you have the capabilities to build this the plans with be available soon. If you don't have the ability and you would  like one then I can make that happen.
And if you think it is "Snake oil" then keep doing what it is that you do. 

[slapstick]

Slapstick, dont mind me Ive just been cranky.

I do think the friction heating has a coolness factor, but not sure if it will pan out, what did you think about the links to the patents?

JW

JW
Before I started the build I took about 2 months of reading and yes I have seen that web site and many others like it.
I was not satisfied with what I saw on any of the sites, so I started from the Idea of the Tesla Turbine and the way it works on an atomic level.
The reasoning was if I trapped the fluid with a very specific viscosity and gap between the disc with some applied math this is what I got.

[XeonPony]

We all know the world aint flat, but once you trace all the energy streams and losses you could do the exact same with a good 550w heater, the only thing that has better is thermal mass to smooth out the temp flux.

[Frank S]

I seam to remember an article about 20 odd years ago may have been in pop-sci of pop-mech or another mg where a guy had built a cylinder and placed several perforated disc in side half the disc were held in place while the other half half were mounted to the shaft . Yes any fluid that is placed in shear will generate heat.
 I used to manufacture hydro-static brake assemblies for oil field draw-works  those things would generate so much heat when the water pressure was applied that huge heat ex-changers had to be used to dissipate the heat they generated when applied.
 Of course the design of them was quite a bit different than what you have but the principal is the same
 
 What I'm wondering is what you are using for headed air circulation through out your house or are you using these as individual room heaters
 X amount of watts in equals x amount of thermal radiation out  the more  mass involved the longer the effects can be felt, this is why the self contained electrically heated oil radiators produce more residual heat that the ones with coils and reflectors or those infrared things once the power is switched off.
 Its still hard to beat heated rocks or cast iron blocks though

[Bruce S]

Well thanks Bruce
I have not claimed over unity or any such claim. All I see is people so fast to shut something down because it does not fit inside there text book.
I will keep using this heater and keep making it better. My heating bill was $250 just to HEAT my home! and around $80 for the rest of the appliances. That is a total electric bill of $330 a month in the winter. My bill this month for October was $150 giver or take some pennies, so you can "crunch" those numbers all the way to the bank.
P.S. have fun with you heating bill.

I surely hope all if this wasn't pointed at me. Especially the the last two lines.
I'm allowing this thread for the possibly it may have validity.
However, since you can post on U-tube you could certainly put pen to the paper and put up some requested specs.
Most of the people requesting those numbers normally use common sense and have proven themselves to know what  they are talking about.
IF you cannot or don't want to post numbers then I'll lock this thread and any others like it faster than you can turn on a light switch.
PS> using much less money in the way of insulation and conservation than it cost you to build that unit my October bills electric and gas wasn't even $100.
NO one here wants to be "Spoon" fed anything! only real data.

[slapstick]

Bruce
The Thank you was just that a thank you. The rest was just a rant at the ones so fast to try to shut something down. A simple way to get that info is to just ask. Like I have said before when I get more data ill provide it. I want to be fair to this build and let the heater run for as much time as I can to get as much data as I can.
I have given some numbers like for instance: the motor running on 110v uses 4.5 amps inline to make the core turn at full RPM witch is at 900 RPM axle speed the drive dice is 7.5 inches in diameter. The core starting at lets say 60F will rise to full temp @ 250F in about 30 min. give or take. The cycle on/off of the core happens between temp 150F and 250F, now from 150f to 250f it only takes a few min. Ok looking back the heater cost me 450 Watts to 500 Watts to run "full time" non stop. I pay .14 cents a Kilowatt.                    How much would the heater cost me to run for 1 hour?

"conservation" This is what I am doing with running this heater. I have done other thing to try to conserve like using all LED lights witch helped take $25 a month off of the bill. We have new windows and hold a R-factor of 30 in the roof of the house. The out side doors and new and well trimmed as far as the block wall goes, not much we can do with that.       This build cost me around $500 my windows cost me around $4500 my new doors cost me around $600 each. I don't know about you but I think this build will save me some money.

"insulation" Yes I agree with having a well built house but it is not cheap to do. I would say my house is average on the R-factor across the boards.
I do have a very busy house with 3 kids running in and out my wife and I working 2 different shifts. So it is fare to say with anybody with a high traffic house has higher heat and cooling bills. I can see 2 Adults or a single person with having a naturally lower bill.

[bob golding]

i look forward to your data. i still think without some idea of humidity the difference in perceived temperature will be meaningless. if the humidity is 70% and the thermometer reads 70 degrees F it will feel a lot colder than if the humidity is 40% and the thermometer reads 60 degrees. before you knock it try it.
my heating bill.? zero. i use waste oil in a home brew waste oil heater. for details look up "spikes waste oil heater" on  google. works very well. cheap to build, no fumes that i have noticed very responsive. needs cleaning once every couple of weeks. total cost $40 for the drip feed lubricator and $5 for the filter. the rest was just stuff i had lying around.

[slapstick]

Just to give an update
I have the heater broken down for some upgrades. I will be installing a nitronic 60 drive shaft with high temp high speed bearings to reduce the noise. Along with machining the top and bottom plates to fit the roll up going around the core with vent holes. After that point it will be a forced air unit. When I am done with the up grades I will be posting a new video on you tube.
I am also in contact with a local HVAC company and they are willing to run a full test on this heater as a 3rd party. I am thinking around 60 days from now, all the testing will be done.

I would like to get some feed back if any on how you guys would like to see the testing carried out. I will try to follow what ever guide lines you ask for and will make videos of the testing and hopefully have a spread sheet on the test results.

Thank you
Gabriel

[JW]

I have the heater broken down for some upgrades. I will be installing a nitronic 60 drive shaft with high temp high speed bearings to reduce the noise.

Im suprised you have a noise problem, are you running 3500 rpm?

I have worked with the nemonic alloys and they are designed for an operating temp comperable to inconel, and that is clearly not needed in your application.

I would like to get some feed back if any on how you guys would like to see the testing carried out. I will try to follow what ever guide lines you ask for and will make videos of the testing and hopefully have a spread sheet on the test results.

Along with machining the top and bottom plates to fit the roll up going around the core with vent holes. After that point it will be a forced air unit.

We would like to know the exact heat transfer surface area, is it 2 square foot, etc.

JW

[slapstick]

The surface area is around 560 sq. in.  This is still subject to change "there is room to add more".
As far as the nitronic 60 drive shaft it is the goods that I have laying around and I am sure it will work just fine for the prototype.
The bearings are Swiss made and rated for 900F and 18000 RMP.
The noise I was getting was from the old bearing that I was using. NOT from the core its self. There is still noise from the motot but that is out of my control at the moment.
While my heater was down for upgrades I used an electric heater that was hooked up to my watt meter, just to see how much it would cost to run. The findings was shocking to me. A 300 watt dish heater that I got from Costco years ago was costing me, .04 cents a hour to run witch did nothing to heat my house but was nice if you were in front of it.

I am happy to have my heater back up and running but not with all the upgrades..... I just could not endure my house at 60F anymore.

[equiluxe]

There are some things that appear to defy the laws of physics such as this LED, If you look into it closely the extra energy is being absorbed from the environment.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-03/09/230-percent-efficient-leds

I came across some video of a mechanical boiler system  that was described as being over unity when I looked at the OP link, I think that in this case the extra heat was being taken from the surrounding air.

[ghurd]

1WH=3600J=3.41BTU

[12AX7]

Did I miss something?   how many BTU out for every KWH in?

[dnix71]

There is no data. This thread needs to be locked and sent to the bit bucket. A house with a small space heater is basically a closed system. It doesn't matter how you slice it, all the electrical energy in becomes low grade heat at some point. The coefficient of performance is one, period. Space heater = 1, hair dryer = 1, rube goldberg contraption =1.

The only way to get ahead is a heat pump, then the CoP can be higher than one, and then only because the system is no longer closed. No OU.

The forum rules here should demand real data. I have an electric bike with a Turnigy on it and a Kill-A-Watt meter. I can show my work and have.

[JW]

Hi, Dnix

If you want this thread locked hit the "report to moderator link" (and leave a comment) that way all the Mods will be aware, and we'll go from there.

JW