Author Topic: 48V battery cable sizing  (Read 8752 times)

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madlabs

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48V battery cable sizing
« on: December 14, 2012, 11:44:47 AM »
Hi All,

Am getting a new 48V system. The company I am purchasing from reccomends 4/0 cable. However, with a 4400 watt inverter, the max I am going to pull is 100 amps. Even assuming double that in surge, for a 6 foot run, 2/0 would have a .4% drop. The guys says he would still get 4/0.

If at all possible, hit me with your opinion as soon as ya can, the order is being packed today.

Also, what gauge would you use for battery to battery connections?

Thanks!

Jonathan

thirteen

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2012, 11:57:49 AM »
Have you planned for expanding your use of your system? Will you possibly need or have another system added to yours for charging or usage? Does your warrenty require the use of the bigger wire. Does all of the connections take the bigger wire?  $.02 13
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bob g

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2012, 12:26:23 PM »
2/0 is going to do just fine, no need to go as large as 4/0

if it were me, i would just go with 2/0 welding cable, and cover it with some of the nomex/kevlar sleeving material. mount the cables so that they are well supported, with good separation and adequate airflow and you will be golden.

if you later expand you can just double up on the 2/0 and be better off anyway, probably at less expense and much easier to handle.

you can shove a lot of power down a 2/0 welding cable, the distance you are talking about is just not going to be an issue handling ~200amps max intermittent and 100amps continuous.

truth be told you could probably do it with 1/0 comfortably provided it was fine stranded like welding cable.

welding cable is a problem for the NEC so you will have to sleeve it or put it into a conduit or some sort of enclosure. so you might want to double check on this if it is important to you.

remember if the battery and inverter system is in non inhabited enclosure/building you can do pretty much what you like and not have code problems or NEC regulations to contend with. 

i don't know what your plans are, but i plan on putting all my power production and switch gear in a self contained enclosure like a small shipping container, clearly marked "no user serviceable parts inside"

what happens in there, stays in there and it is none of the code/nec/insurance companies business!  i will accept the liability for a fire that happens inside and it is very unlikely such an event would not be contained and not spread to other insured elements of the property.

in some jurisdictions you might have to argue this, but it is sound in principle.

bob g
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madlabs

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2012, 12:40:13 PM »
Bob, All,

As it happens, the whole system is mounted on or in a shipping container. I will go for 2/0, it just makes sense. I don't know why he is pushing 4/0.

Jonathan

bart

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2012, 01:01:30 PM »
    I have two inverters. The Magnum MS4448PAE and an Xantrex XPower 3000 plus. Both call for the 4/0 cable. On the Magnum, less than 5' you can use 2/0. 5' to 10' 4/0. I went with the 4/0 welding cable and found a deal on line on a couple of partial spools. Used that also on battery connections. I would recommend using 4/0 only from the batteries to the inverter. as that would allow for expansion later. As for battery interconnections, don't think I would do that again.
   On the Xantrex I just can not justify the expense of the 4/0 cable. I use it once in a while for portable power. Am using #4 cable with a 150 amp breaker (from the auto parts store) on it.
   The issue for you is if you have problems later and you don't use recommended cable size, will that void warranty?

   Have the same problem as you, as I've got 4 extra batteries. Think I am just going to just buy 4 more and double the bank size. When I do am going to use 1/0 THHN as I have some of that for some reason.
   Then both banks to a common buss, with 4/0 to the inverter.

madlabs

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2012, 01:14:01 PM »
I am getting two of the same Magnum inverters. If they call for 4/0, I guess I'll have to do it to keep the warranty.

I just can't see why, it seems like over-kill

Jonathan

bart

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2012, 01:42:48 PM »
   Have had mine running for about 3 weeks now. The only issue so far has been the operation of a toaster oven. it makes every type of light, incandescent, florescent, and LED pulse. Drives me crazy. Emailed them once and got a response, but no follow up to another email. Twirling thumbs now.
   Other than that the inverter has fine.
Assume you are going to be running both stacked and would like to know if the ME-RTR allows better fine tunning of charging profiles. Am using the ME-RC and with it you can not set specific bulk, absorb, float or equalizing voltages.

ChrisOlson

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2012, 08:16:18 PM »
Am getting a new 48V system. The company I am purchasing from reccomends 4/0 cable. However, with a 4400 watt inverter, the max I am going to pull is 100 amps. Even assuming double that in surge, for a 6 foot run, 2/0 would have a .4% drop. The guys says he would still get 4/0.

The guy is right.  Sorry, but you need 4/0 on that inverter.  Most 48V inverters have a minimum input voltage in the 35-40 volt range, which the bank will drop to under extreme load even fully charged.  The inverter efficiency is probably down to ~75% on the 30 minute overload rating.  So if you're over 5 feet from the bank to the inverter you need 4/0 wire to meet NEC.  Marine and automotive will allow higher amps on 2/0.  But not for residential.

Our SW+ 5548 pulls in excess of 300 amps at full 10 second surge power.
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southpaw

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2012, 08:26:11 AM »
Something important to remember is that in a series circuit the amperage in all parts of the circuit is equal, so the battery interconnects should be the same size as the cables to the inverter.  If a person is using 8 6v batteries for a 48v system the battery interconnects definitely add up and the voltage drop during peak loads can cause nuisance low voltage cutout of the inverter.
Southpaw 

madlabs

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2012, 09:08:31 AM »
Well, I ordered some 4/0 and lugs to make battery cables with. It still doesn't make sense to me. Even with a 300 amp surge I'm going to have a .3 volt drop across the cable, for a .6% efficiency loss. I already ordered the larger cable, so I am just trying to understand.

And I really need 4/0 inter-connects for the batteries? I thought going up to 48V was supposed to reduce my wire size! I currently use 3/8" copper tube on my 12V system right now (naughty, I know) and I was hoping to get rid of them and use wire this time. But the thought of buying all the lugs and wire in 4/0 and crimping it all up makes me feel a little sick...

Thanks for the help, folks!

Jonathan

southpaw

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2012, 09:34:41 AM »
Good on ya for ordering the 4/0 parts. You can get away with a lot of things most of the time but doing it right the first time is not a bad thing.
If as ChrisOlsen says 4/0 meets NEC THEN 4/0 IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO for peace of mind, insurance, and saving 1% on your power consumption with a renewable energy system is a small but significant victory which will certainly add up over time. I wish I could get an extra 1% return on my pension I could eat a much better grade of cat food.
Southpaw

ChrisOlson

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2012, 09:42:11 AM »
Also hope you're aware of the fact that the Magnum MS-PAE inverters have a five year warranty if installed in a Magnum enclosure or panel.  If you don't put it in their panel the warranty is only 2 years.

If you get the Magnum panel it comes all pre-wired, with the disconnect, proper sized wire, and everything you need to have a code compliant install.  The Magnum panel is really cheap for 3 extra years of warranty.
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madlabs

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2012, 10:00:17 AM »
I am glad to meet the NEC, I'm just curious as to the why. I just can't see why 2/0 with a .3 voltage drop at 3X the faceplate rating isn't OK. Oh well.

Chris, I am using a magnum panel but I am wiring it myself. Couldn't afford the extra bux to have it done for me. Wish I could have, but there it is, I'm gonna be eating top ramen and cat food for a while as it is. Seriously. I'm guessing I only get the 2 year warranty. Good to know though.

Thanks folks!

Jonathan

dnix71

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2012, 10:20:03 AM »
http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-0-WELDING-CABLE-WIRE-FOUR-4-100-FT-LEADS-/261142493838?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ccd4e3a8e

eBay list for 400 feet of 4/0 generator cable. Four 100 foot pieces for minimum bid of $2.50/foot, or buy it outright for $4.00/foot. Listing in the same section for new 4/0 by the foot for just over $6/foot. Not cheap, but not really all that bad considering how much the inverter costs.

Just be glad you aren't using 4/0 aluminum. My apartment from the service disconnect to the inside panel is 4/0 aluminum. It's the size of my arm.

ChrisOlson

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2012, 10:58:15 AM »
I am glad to meet the NEC, I'm just curious as to the why. I just can't see why 2/0 with a .3 voltage drop at 3X the faceplate rating isn't OK.

You can get a different interpretation of NEC from every electrician you ask, and however an inspector interprets it will always be the Final Ruling.  Without applying all the formulas for circular mils required for a 4548, I think under 5 feet you are OK with 2/0 wire.  But over 5 feet I'm pretty sure you need 4/0.  NEC breaks this down by primary and secondary distribution and the voltage drop limits are different for each.

On your battery bank you can use 2/0 because of the short distances between the batteries, however, since those cables are probably only about a foot long each.
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southpaw

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2012, 11:27:10 AM »
Madlabs
Regarding the reason why NEC requires  4/0 cables as I understand it is;
The NEC states " the conductor must be sized no less than 100% of the noncontinuous load plus 125% of the continuous load"  and for loads over 100 amps sized for 75 deg C temp.
The spec for your inverter state Max. Input current 144 A , Which multiplied by 125% = 180 amps and
5 second surge power in real watts 8500 or 177A at 48v
adding the two gives you a required amperage of 355
they also derate the conductor capacity by 20% to take into consideration the fact that these conductors may be bundled reducing their heat dissipating capacity, and high ambient temperatures which may be encountered.
They also don't publish charts for every amperage so you would use the 320 amp chart which has taken into consideration the above factors for your 144A   continuous input current rather than the next chart down which is 80A continuous.
By doing it this way they are also taking into account that my brother-in-law might someday visit you and do something really stupid.
It might seem like overkill but they work on the worst case scenario then add in a safety factor and a cover your ass factor.
Southpaw 
     

bart

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2012, 11:41:01 AM »
   Given that both ,welding cable and THHN wire have both the same circular mils, is there any other reason why welding cable should be used? Other than its much greater flexibility.

southpaw

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2012, 11:57:06 AM »
  Bart
Welding cable doesnt meet NEC regulations because of insulation requirements.

ChrisOlson
Because all parts of a series circuit carry the same amperage the battery interconnects carry the same amperage as the cables to the inverter and with 8 batteries in series 7 interconnects at 1 foot each add 7 ft. to the circuit and while using 2/0 cable will work it won't pass NEC requirements. Not saying you are wrong, just how I interpret the code. Like you say everyone interprets the code differently and the inspector has final say. If it is not going to be inspected then it comes down to whatever you are comfortable with but err on the side of caution.
Southpaw

bart

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2012, 12:12:33 PM »
   Southpaw;
Yes I do realize that. Thought there might be some else I was missing.
 

madlabs

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2012, 12:57:17 PM »
South, thanks for the explanation. I might go 2/0 on the battery, I know it won't be bundled, etc. I'll look around and see if I can find some 4/0 at a decent price but I might just go 2/0 if I can't.

Thanks for all the help and information, folks!

Jonathan

southpaw

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2012, 04:06:46 PM »
Madlabs
If you are not required to meet code I would agree with ChrisOlson and Bob G and go with 2/0 welding cable and as Bob G said with a short battery to inverter run 1/0 welding cable would suffice. There is quite a difference between being code compliant and being safe and efficient. Many people don't have the luxury of this choice and any professional installer or supplier must recommend the code required installation for liability reasons. Its just important to make educated and informed decisions and not make wild guesses.
Southpaw

bob g

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2012, 04:24:17 PM »
Madlabs

this is my thinking on the subject

we need to be concerned about codes and the NEC "if" we do any of the following

1. live in an area where an electrical inspector is a reality

2. live in an area that enforces codes

3. are concerned with insurance and insurability

4. are building stuff that man or beast will inhabit or have access to.
(most particularly if people will be living within the same confines or in an area directly attached to our power room)

if any or all of these are concerns then you ought to go with what the NEC calls out for at a minimum and also look into local codes for what their mandates are.

if on the other hand, your power room is such that it is clearly separate from living spaces, is made of fireproof materials, and is secure so that no one can have access except for you or other qualified maintenance folks, and you can assume the risk for the remote possibility of the building burning down and catching something else on fire... i see no reason to follow the letter of the law.  the reality is you are building an appliance and the NEC or other local codes have no authority over what is inside the case.

the only possible issue might be one of UL approval of  your appliance, but that is only an issue should the thing burn down and burn down your insured house should the insurance company have an issue with it. (which they probably would if it was found to be the cause of your house burning down)

me i would just build it with a comfortable margin of safety, spaced so it would be unlikely to catch something else of value on fire, and build it out of a material that is as fireproof as realistic. your steel container is what i would think of first, maybe a cement block structure or similar.

what goes on inside that structure technically is no one's or no entities business provided it is not a threat to others.

if it were otherwise, we would have NEC and all sorts of code boys pawing around our shops, looking over every diy project we could dream up.

where i live there is no code enforcement at all, nobody cares if it is NEC approved except for the insurance man.   even then many folks choose not to insure or to self insure because the cost of housing here is peanuts compared to most area's of the country.

the insurance on my house is such that i could pay for another like place here in town with about 15 years worth of premiums.  most houses sell for less than half the down payment of similar houses in bigger markets. 

here we can use common sense, an we accept a certain level of risk so long as that risk is not to others or their property.

bob g
research and development of a S195 changfa based trigenerator, modified
large frame automotive alternators for high output/high efficiency project X alternator for 24, 48 and higher voltages, and related cogen components.
www.microcogen.info and a SOMRAD member

thirteen

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2012, 04:50:23 PM »
Insurance is something I cannot get I would like to get insurance incase someone comes on my property and gets hurt but at this time noone will even give me a quot. I am too remote and for 5 months out of the year you can not get easily in or out. The nearest help is 50 miles away and about 2 hrs at best if they know the way. The only emergency we can get help on is life flight or each other. We also need to get upon the top of the mountians to get cell phone reception to call out to get help. Call and ask about your warrenty requirments. A lot of this stuff the warrenty is only good for 1 yr. so the risk is yours to take. 13
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madlabs

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2012, 11:23:20 AM »
Bob,

Luckily my system is in a shipping container well away from inhabited buildings. I may have to eventually deal with the inspectors. I don't keep fire insurance anyway. I am a 12 year veteran of the fire service so I run a tight ship fire-safety wise. Of course it can happen but I don't have much to insure and it is expensive where I live.

Jonathan

Mary B

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Re: 48V battery cable sizing
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2012, 03:12:39 PM »
Thirteen, look into getting a ham radio license. The entry level test is easy and no morse code anymore. I would be willing to bet you are in range of a 2 meter repeater and that could be a lifesaver.