Author Topic: LowTechLowCostLeadAcidBatteryVenting... (Read 3856 times)

doubledipsoon · « **on:** January 08, 2013, 12:34:51 AM »

Has anyone out there in LeadAcidBatteryLand heard of the genius idea featured in Home Power magazine, issue #6, August '88 about a no-nonsense method of venting batteries? Eliminate Hydrocaps, forget about WaterMisers, skip elaborate canopy set-ups, and throw out the idea of dangerous fans for good. I know this sounds completely unconventional, but I've heard that it works better than anything real big money can buy........... It consists of drilling small holes in the standard battery caps, gluing the vent holes in the caps, securely putting clear vinyl tubing in the holes, attaching all the vinyl tubes to a slighly ascending (2/3" per foot) 3" diameter PVC tube, and venting it to the outside. This system eliminates fumes "at the source", without compromising battery box/room insulated heat. Has anyone out there done this? Joe PS: Gerald Ames is the creator.

joestue · « **Reply #1 on:** January 08, 2013, 01:08:09 AM »

i've done that for collecting large amounts of HHO gas for ringing in the new years with a ka-boom..

the method proposed does not recombine H2 and O2, so you'll still have to add water occasionally.

dbcollen · « **Reply #2 on:** January 08, 2013, 10:41:51 AM »

In the english language we put spaces between words.

XeonPony · « **Reply #3 on:** January 08, 2013, 12:34:11 PM »

well between paragraphs any ways!

That system will work but it defeats the concept of the watermiser caps, and that is to recombine the water to reduce watering cycles. Fans are not dangerous in the least lest the one operating it is a dimwit, I use a 45mm brushles fan to circulate the air in my battery compartment to keep even heat distribution.

Like any system it is only as good as the core design.

birdhouse · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2013, 07:52:04 PM »

i have no doubt it would work, but lets look at an install with, say, 12 golf cart batteries. that would be 36 tubes coming off the top of the bank. between existing wiring and fuses, i'd think the battery bank would become very busy.

simply adding water would become somewhat of a chore!

not to mention the "look". i'm imagining something out a science fiction movie... "it's alive!"

adam

doubledipsoon · « **Reply #5 on:** January 09, 2013, 12:37:44 AM »

Thanks, everybody, for your replies. I didn't think anyone would have actually tried this revolutionary way of venting batteries- not in today's world. The guy who invented this also thought it would never fly. Of course, why would he care? He never wanted to make any money off his idea, nor was he bothered over superficial asthetics or having to put a little distilled water in a few batteries every so often. Funny thing is, it worked for 24 years until his death last year. Like all great ideas, extracting the fumes out of a set of lead acid batteries "AT THE SOURCE", without flushing out the heat in the battery room/box seems brilliantly efficient, but it'll evidently didn't over-impress many of you.......Oh, well...Have fun blowing more on Hydrocaps than your whole set of batteries!

XeonPony · « **Reply #6 on:** January 09, 2013, 01:32:04 AM »

clearly you never seen a VRLA they are set up with a common manifold for venting.

FYI I don't use hydro caps I use an auto watering system, and the vent is an integral part of the banks temp control, after all I designed it that way.

Sorry but this is not revolutionary in the least, in some applications a useful idea but for a properly designed bank it adds nothing other then more failure points.

And please paragraphs!

doubledipsoon · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2013, 11:42:34 AM »

Xeon Pony. Thanks for the reply. What does VRLA stand for? Yeah, I've considered "manifolds" for venting but my "low tech" idea will keep inadvertant heat escape from the battery room/box to a minimum. If a manifold is used, an awful lot of therms will rise up from the room into the canopy, along with the battery fumes. Let me know if I'm off base on this analysis. It very well may be a revolutionary idea IF there isn't any competition out there, yes? Joe

Mary B · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2013, 05:26:46 PM »

http://solar-catalog.com/battery_filling.html

tanner0441 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2013, 06:36:51 PM »

V R L A Valve Regulated Lead Acid

The battery doesn't have removable caps and can run at a positive pressure, excess pressure is released via a valve normally at one of the ends. They are maintenance free as far as is considered normal and electrolyte loss is minimal, though I have on occasions had to pry the caps of to top the cells up, they don't spill if you tip them up, but are not designed to run on their side.

To be run on its side the battery must be gel filled.

Another battery type is A G M Absorbed Glass Mat. The separators are made from fiber glass matting which enables the plates to be closer together getting the size and weight down for a given capacity.

Hope this helps

Brian.

XeonPony · « **Reply #10 on:** January 17, 2013, 11:19:05 AM »

Quote from: doubledipsoon on January 16, 2013, 11:42:34 AM

Xeon Pony. Thanks for the reply. What does VRLA stand for? Yeah, I've considered "manifolds" for venting but my "low tech" idea will keep inadvertant heat escape from the battery room/box to a minimum. If a manifold is used, an awful lot of therms will rise up from the room into the canopy, along with the battery fumes. Let me know if I'm off base on this analysis. It very well may be a revolutionary idea IF there isn't any competition out there, yes? Joe

you really do not need that much air flow, that and by using a solenoid opened flue you only need to open the vent at gassing voltage which is in the upper part of the charging profile so you need to get rid of the excess heat as is, so kill 2 birds with one stone!

kitestrings · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2013, 10:04:29 PM »

Hi Folks,

Well we've done something like what you're describing, and it works well. I vented the PVC thru the sill above the bank. The small lines are 5/16" sugaring tubing. Maple suppliers carry 6x manifolds which work great with 6 or 12V cells.

It doesn't eliminate the need for watering as noted. Unlike vented boxes, however, it keeps the corrosive fumes away from connections which I really like.

I can't post pics from here, but you can see it here:

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,145356.msg987565.html#msg987565

Lot's of ways to skin a cat. This does KIS.

Regards, kitestrings

XeonPony · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2013, 09:31:26 AM »

I opted to just make my connections proper to the environement they would be in, all 316ss and nickled wire and fitings then heat shrunk with duble walled glue lined heat shrink. crimped and soldered every conector.

So in the end it is all down to proper design and building of your battery box/wiring/bank, properly don there is no problem with lost heat or the fums, to which there is little any ways given using the proper caps for the battery.

kitestrings · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2013, 01:33:44 PM »

X'pony,

The attention to connection details makes alot sense to me. I always solder & shrink wrap the battery cable terminal/wire connections, but you still have the connections to the lead terminal on the batteries themselves. I do like being able to get around the bank for inspections, cell checks, (in my case rotation), and the like. I guess that's another reason I dislike the boxes.

I would agree the heat loss is negligible. In sizing our vent pipes I tried to maintain the collective equivalent area of the orignal vent holes being served. I'm thinking it is only 1" or 1 1/4" dia. at the outlet, as best I recall.

The auto-waters are very slick, but again, I like taking a bit of time when I water to clean, inspect, tighten connections, and take comparative SG readings when I service them. I've been using a refractometer for SG readings in the last few years. Much preferred it over the bulb/hydrometer type. I usually take eye-dropper samples into a weekly medicine organizer ($2-3 from the drug store) and then record readings in a more comfortable spot.

Always interesting seeing different approaches. Regards, ~ks

XeonPony · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2013, 08:23:57 PM »

well I tend to messure sg monthly rather then doing it all the time at this time I do my cleaning and such, all batteries are spaced 1 inch evenly and I use battery terminal anti-ox grease on the conections.

Do to my bank being a simple series perallel design using 8 6V batteries I am not to worried about rotating them, in a 24v & up systems there would certainly be a justified reason for rotating.

and yes the vent does not need to be much bigger then an inch or so.

I would be very interested in learning more about a refractor monitoring system as I never liked the bulb type either, I know of the methode for anylizing refrigerent oil but not for SG of a battery.

doubledipsoon · « **Reply #15 on:** January 19, 2013, 12:05:41 AM »

tanner 0441, thanks for the reply- yeah, I actually have heard of the gel mats and the sealed lead acids- I wrote both types off because of the costs. Besides, I'm retire, and have lots of free time to deal with cheaper, more labor extensive batteries. Thanks for the into anyway....

doubledipsoon · « **Reply #16 on:** January 19, 2013, 12:12:29 AM »

Kitestrings, very nice setup with your low cost low tech venting system on your L-16s. You've made me a real believer in venting "at the source", if you know what I mean. I'd like some real specific info on where to get that sugering tubing, and the type of glue you use to seal the vents on the stock Trojan caps. Thanks alot for verifing my initial intuition regarding this "off the shelf" venting idea. Joe

kitestrings · « **Reply #17 on:** January 19, 2013, 06:15:22 PM »

X'pony,

Interesting, I also like to space the batteries. It allows for air circulation, but I also like to be able to see the sides/ends in case there is any signs of deflection or leak.

Our bank is two parallel, series strings; 48V (840 AH), 6V batteries. The other thing that I find works well, depending on the terminal style, is to alternate the orientation of every other battery in each series string. It just keeps the interconnecting cables shorter, and more direct.

The reason that I rotate batteries, is that while we have a 48V bank, we still have a lot of 12V loads (lights mostly, some electronics, a just-won't-die Danfoss/fridge, and one remaining 12V generation source). We use a 12V "tap", paralleled across the two strings, and equalize with a Solar Converter's "Autotransformer" (buck/ boost converter really).

There are a number of handheld refractometers out there. We make maple syrup here in VT, and more and more we're seeing them used for accurate density of sap and syrup. They also make them for testing antifreeze and battery electrolyte, etc. There not cheap, but they are helping you with preventive maintenance of an important and expensive component of the system. (That's how I justified it anyway ;>). The one we have is a Sper Scientific #300055.

DoubleDS,

The tubing is low cost and readily available from maple sugaring suppliers - try googling Leader Evaporator, CDL, or Lapierre. If you use the soft-flex (often used for 'drop lines') you can just drill the caps close to the OD of the tubing and press fit; no glue. I just plug the cap vent holes with silicone.

Best, ~ks

kitestrings · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2013, 06:28:25 PM »

The 6x manifolds are often called "stars" (for sap ladders) or "mainline tees". There are 3way, 6-way, and 8-way fittings. They typically transition to 1/2" or 3/4" NPT. You can go from this to PVC pipe.

XeonPony · « **Reply #19 on:** January 20, 2013, 11:16:39 AM »

very nice looking little insterment will plan one in the budget, less acid on the hands is all ways nice!

i use 2*1 wood stock (pressure treated, should have put linseed oil on em to make it look all pretty lol match the 316ss screws nicely) and I make a grid to hold the cells solid as I am a mobile system, so I can see around all the cells as well, the battery compartment is water tight so any cell leakage will be promtly noticed.

Another thing for those that worried or in that cold of an environement is you can make a crude heat recover ventilater by using two heat piped computer heat sinks coupled togeather, and a low speed fan to drive the air exchange it worked really well last time just make sure they are all copper or it won't work nearly as well.

kitestrings · « **Reply #20 on:** January 25, 2013, 03:09:29 PM »

i found this photo from juast after we converted to 48V; but prior to replacing the bank, so here it is a sigle-string 48V config:

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Author Topic: LowTechLowCostLeadAcidBatteryVenting... (Read 3856 times)